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Buff the Tortofists

10 replies [Last post]
Sat, 11/21/2015 - 22:14
Travikibot's picture
Travikibot

I've recently been playing a lot with the Tortofists, they are incredibly fun to use... except for one small thing

They are EXTREMELY inefficient.

The damage caps at about 210 per hit, which means that they deal around 840 damage for a whole clip, including lunge. That would be fine until you realize that they are outclassed by almost every weapon there is. Combuster/Acheron is far more efficient, seeing as around 300 per hit would mean 900, and they are far safer to use. The alchemers can plow through groups with ricochets, doing about 200 per hit. I get it, most people don't use the Tortos for the normal attack, most players would much rather use the charge. But the charge is outclassed by something like a brandish charge, again. A brandish charge not only does more damage, but has the ability to inflict a status effect.

How to fix Tortos:

Increase damage

Increase clip size

Add status effects

Remove those annoying invinciticks

Allow the charge effect to last longer

I know this is kind of a whiny thread, but I just felt like throwing this out there.

Sun, 11/22/2015 - 09:15
#1
Kxdx's picture
Kxdx
bleep bloop - Counter argument

Damage
Damage is subjective when, aside from the shard bombs, no other weapon can create obstacles that temporarily change terrain.

Clip size
I am in agreement with this as the two clip feels limiting to the aggressive play style of the tortoFIST's normal attacks, causing many players to lean towards charge spam, similar to the autogun line.

Add status effects
The cost of status effects is damage output.
Additionally shock/freeze could quickly get abusive when coupled with the already effective mobility reduction properties of the shards.

invinciticks
Ever consider they were put there in the first place :o?
- It takes additional programming to add these features.

Evidence of OOO's previous experience with consecutively hitting effects can be found with the old shard bomb before they included their "invinciticks".
(video of old shard bomb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVmeEdqiVmM).

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 09:21
#2
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
...

The Problem with Tortofists is that they are incredibly unpredictable compared to everything else.

What needs to change is:

A Fixed drop pattern (like the current shard bombs they would always try to form a set pattern when they land).
A drop indicator that shows the knight holding a tortofist charge where it will land.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 09:44
#3
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

For the most part the tortofists are completely fine. They outdamage blitz against crowds of enemies and are already kind of pushing if not destroying the gun-bomb-sword separation since they're a handgun that acts like a bomb and a sword moreso than a gun. People expect them to be like brandishes or something, easy to use and high power from the get-go, when in reality they require a huge amount of skill to pull off and provide not much more reward, but still a considerable amount more reward, than other weapons.

Really I wouldn't mind giving them more damage, and I've been wanting status effects for a while now. If it were up to me, I'd do the following-
+15% more damage on all hits
+2 shards falling per star level, so +4 for the 5*
+Add more range on the projectile shot from the normal hit, so that it can hit switches better
+Introduce status variants that deal status on the fallen crystal walls but the current damage values otherwise
+Status variants also effect projectiles shot, but not initial lunge

The idea is to make the weapon more worth it overall, since there are better strategies in existence (I'm looking at you, slug + vortex) and most players don't have the attention span + patience necessary to make them work.

Also Holy-Nightmare's idea would be really process intensive- currently, the game calculates the projectiles once when fired. With Holy-Nightmare's method, it would have to calculate this constantly. A fixed drop pattern would also be awful for the gun, since you need to be able to shape your shots; i.e. place them along a wall, cluster them, etc. and you can currently control this based on where you aim. A fixed pattern would likely mess it up.

The invincitinks are good IN THIS CASE as well. Enemies aren't smart enough to not walk into the damaging wall forever so the game sort of pretends that they are when you get them stuck. You know how people complain when Vanaduke traps you in shadow fire and you take damage over and over again, losing your ER and then dying a second time? Yea that's what you're wanting but on your side. Granting the weapon zero invincitinks but less damage would also hurt the weapon overall, as enemies walking into the wall only once or twice and then bouncing off wouldn't take as much damage.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 18:08
#4
Jenovasforumchar's picture
Jenovasforumchar
guys, dont mess up the gun.

Actually, the gun is fine as it is right now. IF you want to 'fix' it, you would either destroy its purpose or you would make it be another imbalanced weapon - and tortos are by far my favorite guns.

You say the crystal drops are random? I say the direction of alchemers are more random. Yes I mean it; you can argue that it always turns left, but you can bring in similar arguments to the location where the torto shards come down - with ofc a certain RNG - but by far not as random as you want to make it, once you know why it is landing on which location for what reason.

You also do not need an indicator where the crystals come down, just learn the distance.
Example: Antigua-line guns always have the same range. What people may not know is that the antigua bullets create an impact when they reach their limit and disappear. This impact is able to get rid of these flat plants that can drop hearts or crowns. Just walk through a Lichen level and try to destroy all these plants with a specific gun only - this is the best way to get familar to the very exact range of your gun.

Killing randomness completelly is killing efficiency.
It is a big deal if you have a fix pattern or the possibility that many torto crystals end up very close together and 1hit a Trojan. If you have a fix pattern then this pattern will definitelly cover a larger area and less crystals hit the same enemy. Result: enemies that you can 1hit with the current mechanic are impossible to 1hit after this messed up idea.

Instant damage without delay?
If you want to deal instantly big damage without delay after you released your charge attack, then Tortoguns are the wrong type of weapons to you; just pick your combuster and waltz through the enemies or pick your Needle for that purpose.

Tortoguns are agile guns that offer great flexibility combined with high damage numbers - but this is traded in for a higher grade of skill level that is required here and also at the cost of a quite high delay after releasing crystals and actually dealing damage - but you know yourselfe very well that there are situations in whose you want to deal high damage by having a great distance to the crowd that is fallowing you, maybe even with healers between.

In this case: Pick your Tortogun and nuke them out of a safe distance as how this weapon is meant to be used.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 11:31
#5
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Jenovas

Crystals do drop at random to a degree, it's just that they often completely miss the target. Even constraining the pattern to an amorphous circle would help.

Tortofists do not have an exact range.... their range is determined by how close the enemy in front of you is. It has a maximum but if you launch a charge at an enemy who is practically on top of you the charge will fall on them rather than off in the distance. A simple marker that shows up when holding a charge that tells you where the charge will land would be very helpful, even if it is a light glow on the ground displaying the general area it will land would be nice.

Tortofists are not built for OHKOing targets and your argument leads to another thought. Should the crystal spread increase based on the number of enemies in your line of sight, and shrink when there are less?

Instant damage belongs on other guns... the tortofist just needs the regular attack and standard bullet to have slightly larger hitboxes.

I wouldn't call Tortofists "agile", they offer unique movement but fact that you are temporarily locked in when attacking makes this gun about as agile are the old Magnus line.

Tue, 11/24/2015 - 13:37
#6
Jenovasforumchar's picture
Jenovasforumchar
@Holy

1. Knowing where your bullet go:

In Spiral Knights this is all about getting familar with your weapon. Otherwise e.g. the Alchemers would much more benefit from this since they shoot zigzag counterclockwise ricochets or the Autogun so you know how many bullets will hit your target if you unleash it.

2. Missing your target.

Sry if autoaim does not help here, but serious, if you miss a target again and again then practice your skills.
For the start I recommend to keep high distance, unleash the crystals and then rise your shield and walk just in front of the shard field. The enemies will come close and stop right at the incoming crystal area while preparing to attack you - a preparation that will almost never gets finished.

When you can handle this, then try to use that tactic in mid combat. but instead of high distance, you move a circle and froce the enemies by knowing their AI to end up below the crystals when they income.

And after that, you can increase the damage to push enemies back into the crystals after they got blasted out of them by the crystal's impact. To me, Using tortoshields worked best for that purpose.

3. The purpose?

OHKO? CC? Something totally new? It depends on how you use it. But it is surely a great weapon if you are beeing chased by a large group of monsters and need to decimate their number while having no interest in jumping into the monster pool and get surrounded. I can't say if it is intended that you can OHKO stuff, but you definitelly can with skill and that is the potential I love with these guns. Rendering them to pure spread-damage-to-many sounds morely like another degrade to the new catalyzer mechanic.

4. Normal shots.

The normal shots are very good to move a close target fastly at distance. Of course, it could be nice if they had another shot or more range or whatever. But why do you want to change a weapon? Why don't you try to fit a place for it and check where you can use certain mechanics of a weapon and in which case you will use them? Yes, the Tortoguns are still the newest weapon types that got published amongst the weapons that are realistically obtainable, so you need to figure out where you can use it - and you definitelly can not use it on the same way as you can use a Brandish...

5. Agility.

There is a huge difference between old magnus mechanic and the tortogun recoil: You are instantly able to move around after releasing your charge - the magnus did knock you down on the floor leaving you vulnerable to everything.
Example: With the tortoguns I have no problem to release my crytals into the direction of a turret - even if said turret just shot bullets and one is directly heading to me. With the old magnus I could do the same but the rooting effect would cause you to get hit.

Tortoguns have zero rooting at all; they just push you back, which can often be used as great advantage once you got used to it.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 11:29
#7
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Eh

I had a thread about these a while back. My biggest issue with tortoguns is that the damage is separated between punch and bullet a bit too much, and the charge spikes are just barely not around long enough. My tweaking suggestions are that the punch has its damage lowered, and the bullet have its damage increased, bullet get increased range by one tile, and the charge attack's crystals last for 1/2 to 1 second longer.

One thing I do want to point out to people defending the tortofist in its current situation is that the tortofist is heavily lackluster in its normal attacks. The charge attack is fine, but if you want a charged area denial that's a bomb's job. The normal attack immobilizes you, only has two shots, and when you land every hit you do a bit less than optimal damage - however the tortofist's standard attack gives up its classes' biggest strength: distance. You cannot have distance with these guns unless you spam charge attacks, and no single weapon should only be viable with its charge attack sans gimmick weapons, like catalyzer (which isn't necessarily "only charge attacks", seeing as you need tags). Brandishes are great in a standard attack. Autoguns are competitive in the standard attack. Alchemers are beautiful in a standard attack. Tortofists are not viable in a standard attack.

If tortofists get a viable standard attack, that'll be great. Its charge attack is already wonderful, despite not being very friendly on solo people (try a level 10 tortofist without ASI or CTR bonuses. By the time you shieldbump/tortofist smash them into the charge crystals they disappear). Overall the weapon isn't terrible, but it falls short in just about every category, making it less of a weapon the player can shape into their playstyle, and instead making players have to base their playstyle around it.

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 11:20
#8
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Jeno

I know where the charge bullets go... the problem is that where the bullets go isn't that effective against anything that moves faster than a zombie and relies on enemies walking into the impact zone for the most damage. I tend to pair my Tortofists with heavy swords so that if and when the charges do less than desirable damage I can still pin them up against the lodges crystals for solid sword damage.

The charge attack range is highly variable, sure it works at long range but you can just as easily walk right up to an enemy and launch a charge in it's face, the shards will always land near the enemies rather than right on top of them. When you are close however you can shield bump and sword push them into the impact.

Tortofists offer something unique in the game by providing a sort of wall that you can pass through but enemies can't. The Shards just don't last long enough to make a huge use of this. This weapon would be sooooo much more useful if it had the Shock status that the Real Tortodrone Shards had.

The normal shots are OK but have horrible range and a long reload time. They would also be much more useful if the bullet was shot along with the punch rather than after, that way it would feel more like a gun.

As for the agility I was referring to the regular attack and how it locks you into linear path while attacking when the amount of time between you clicking and actually shooting gives some enemies enough time to get out of the way. The Charge attack on the other hand has something unique to charge attacks in that it is the only weapon in the game to offer that amount of self pushback with no recoil. Useful for getting out of situations but it prevents your shield usage a bit since you have to have a charge ready.

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 12:23
#9
Exerpa's picture
Exerpa
The specific issues I have

The specific issues I have with the tortoguns are shot distance, shot delay and speed, and charge delay.

As a gun, the shot travel appears to be very short, but this may or may not be part of the sword-like function trade off.

As a sword-gun hybrid there appears to be a small delay before the shot is fired after the lunge forward, and while I'm not sure about it, I believe the shot moves a little slower than standard guns? The specific issues I have with this are:
-The elemental gun is capable of punching mecha knights, but they have a good chance of blocking the follow up shot. As a high risk (for a gun) weapon, the increased chance to knock them over due to landing both halves of the payload would definitely make this a decent anti-robot gun.
-The piercing gun is less useful than the others simply because piercing weak mobs have an increased chance of avoiding the shot.

As a bomb, the charge is reasonable as it is right now because the wall function is unique combined with a chance of high damage if you manage to land it inside a big enemy. The smallest possible change I would suggest would be a speed up of the virtual bullet that spawns the payload - it's a similar issue of the shard bombs with their needlessly long 3 step detonation cycle, but obviously an order of magnitude less horrible than those.. things.

Function and damage wise, I have no particular disagreement for how they are now. I like my Omega Tortofist, but feel the Savage Tortofist to be the less useful of the piercing guns only due to a lack of fine tuning for speed and distance.

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 17:11
#10
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Regarding the idea of fixed spawns

What if

Instead of changing the existing tortofist to have fixed spawns, since a good many of us like that and have no problem with it, we introduced a new set of tortofists based on fixed spawns?

-Perpendicular Wall = Shots always shoot out to the sides only, forming a wall between enemies and the knight

-Parallel Wall = Shots shoot backwards towards the knight, forming a line of shots between the area 'hit' and the knight

-Letter 'V' = Initial 'shot' travels a halved distance and then splits into two, making a 'v' out.. then travels the rest of the way as two half shots that act like parallel Wall

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