Spiral Knights - List of missions that should end on D27/D28, for the purpose of radiant fire crystals

List of missions that should end on D27/D28, for the purpose of radiant fire crystals

17 replies [Last post]

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 08:36

Fehzor

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THE LIST
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Missions that should end on depth 28:

Every single danger mission should have its treasure room on D28. These are all harder than FSC and at least on par with Dreams and Nightmares. There is absolutely no reason for them to not be farmable in this way, even if once per day.

The gauntlet = at least as hard as FSC

It came from below (add a handful of boxes, not too many)

Shadowplay = harder than FSC, has a unique fight

Missions that should end on depth 27:

Breaking in the recruits

The silent legion

Alone in the dark

Terminal meltdown

As for farming in the arcade

Please put a guaranteed arena on D27 AND D28 in the arcade, at least on the non-Vanaduke gates.

Getting down there and having it end with compounds is a slap in the face, and we need something big to end off the clockworks, you know? It's so disheartening, having gates that are useless show up over and over again waiting for the one gate that has arenas to pop up.

If there is more planned in the future for the arcade then this could just be a temporary measure. I would much rather have some cool core levels that give me way more radiant fire crystals than just these few levels showing up there, but if there is going to be a 5 or 6 month or even multiple year long wait then those arenas would be pretty huge.

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BASICALLY-
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If it's on par with Dreams and Nightmares or harder than FSC, it should end on D28 so that players can farm it. The bottom line is that levels should pay out what they are worth in relative difficulty for the most part, because not having them do so makes them somewhat redundant.

Similarly some levels should end at depth 27. These levels are not as long or as hard as those ending on depth 28 but are still challenging and desirable to farm. Especially levels like the silent legion that feature unique bosses, are good contenders as mentioned above.

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LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR WHY THIS IS NEEDED
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The only level that actually pays enough in terms of fire crystals is Dreams and Nightmares, which takes roughly 5 to 10 hours per item heated and grants very little of anything other than those heat levels. And I do mean 5 to 10 hours, with over an hour of either spent waiting for cutscenes and dialogue to finish.

This alone is not so bad as Dreams and Nightmares is actually somewhat of a blessing for us; prior to its existence things were far harder.. what is bad is when you want to heat say, all of your gear. Lets say you’re heating up 20 items as a newer knight, which means that you’re going to have to take the 10 hour route (and that assumes you can even make it through Dreams and Nightmares, which in itself is unrealistic) which comes out to roughly 200 hours of heating items... which would be far less unreasonable if spread between a collection of levels rather than stacked onto this one single mission.. but it’s not and the items just keep coming after that.. want two or three of the tortofists? That’ll be 20 hours of your free time, please. How about a tortodrone shield or two? And at some point people just stop crafting things, and that, is the point at which the game dies for them.

So please. Please make this happen. I’m willing to buy boxes to support you but it would be quite nice if in return we were shown some support on things like this as well.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 10:48

Dats-Mah-Boi

Heating is not hard.

Heating is not hard with D&N. Just budget your time, and play solo since groups don't do well.

D&N 15 mins average is about where you want to be. That way, it'll be closer to 96 rads per hour, 5 hours per item, which isn't too bad in the long run. Just pace yourself man, play like 2 hours a day, and you'll be all done in 2 weeks, which isn't bad at all.

I would personally like to see radiants be cheaper in the supply depot, because 6k E per item is nonsense.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 11:14

Fehzor

@Lethal-Bunduru

I've been doing that since the mission came out and I'd really like to play something else sometimes. I've since heated a good 10-12 items? Something like that? Which comes out to 50-60 hours of pure farming but that's a horrendous understatement, since getting a party together takes far more time and not having a good enough party means taking half an hour.

All I'm asking for is to not be forced into doing this one level for 5-10 hours every time I want to heat something. What's wrong with that?

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 14:14

Dracora-Speaking

Originally I had a much longer reply, but then I remembered I am on the forums and giant blocks of text are too scary. I believe the heart of this issue is the Forge, but there are other reasons to improve the depth/gate generation issues.

For the sake of (what I believe to be, minor) economics, the forge was implemented, which "forces" us to seek out these deeper depths much more than we likely would otherwise. Don't we have biweekly promotions to cover this, is OOO really relying on players using real money to buy energy to get rarities from the depot to level up items to compensate for the loss of elevator pass revenue? The forge seems entirely unnecessary, as it is ultimately a bottleneck to slow players down, especially when you think about the bound state of rarities acquired randomly from exploration. We have plenty of items to consider for heating (*cough gunner cough*), we do not need a forge to limit player progression, which I believe is the core of the issues outlined in this thread. Get it? CORE? DaN? I'm hilarious. Anyway, point is, we're not going to run out of gear to heat anytime soon (some only heat the important things such as chaos/black kat, which is still pointing to no need for the forge, since the bottleneck effect is limited if players only choose to heat a few key items, but where's the fun in no variety?), even if we are able to heat faster without the forge...but...

I have a few ideas about the forge that don't involve its removal - an option to use the old heating system (minus the reviving of course) that temporarily overrides the current system is completely viable, and might help the serious issues heat amplifiers currently have. Who in their right mind would spend that much energy on a temporary amp to fill heat bar(s) per floor, when many of the better heating floors don't even have arsenal stations, requiring reinvites from friends and sacrificing boss tokens?

I think a new usable, perhaps something called a "Heat Lattice" that, when activated, removes the forge system for your knight and you heat the old way, sacrificing a chance for juicy Forge Prize Boxes for a price while saving time could work very well. Just for the duration of the lattice. I use the term "lattice" because I think it fits, it could be a perfected fire crystal (as in crystal lattice) that either decays with time or has a limited number of uses that just bleeds heat radiation into your equipment in an overwhelming manner, purifying the heat you pick up and releasing it when stepping onto an elevator as it syncs with the wonders of the clockworks, resonating with the power of minerals, which I'd love to see returned to the arcade's gate generation in some way. The Heat Lattice used in junction with a more fairly priced heat amp would allow the "collector/completionist" type of gamer to have a fantastic, sill long-lasting Spiral Knights experience. To balance this further, rarities could just not drop from boxes while the lattice is active, feeling overwhelmed by its manifestation of energy and too shy to show up. Lol. I'd also remove the failure chances in the forge, replacing the three buttons with these options: use X crystals to forge, done. Use 2-4X crystals to have a chance at getting a Forge Prize Box or the other benefits such as double leveling etc. Failure is just...sickening. And disrespectful of player effort and time. It's also terrifying to think about misclicking. Ugh.

I agree that gate generation as well as "depth rewards for effort" need work, as the system seems to have been steamrolled by the battle sprite update. Too many things were just left in the dust, and not enough time was spent talking with players about the non-battle sprite changes. Green/blue minerals are currently only used for Geological Survey, the abrupt removal of the ability of players to manipulate the arcade with minerals in junction with free elevators, heat amps remaining pricey, and of course the forge are factors that point to a jerry-rigged system we've dealt with for far too long. While I think moving the depths of vanguard missions to be deeper would be excellent and slightly more challenging, I think allowing us to create things that show up in the arcade, and allow players to manipulate the arcade again, would solve many of these "stagnation and too much grinding" issues. Would you play the arcade to get to a guaranteed arena in D28? Yes. Would you play to see a level you or a friend made randomly show up along the way? Oh I definitely think so! Which brings me to...

Let us make levels in steam workshop. Oh snap, this thread is from OP too! And one that has been suggested in some form time and again. I've even proposed that it involve the artifact (ties into endgame lore), which could easily incorporate minerals now that I think about it, in an interface similar to the Guild Hall design mode. New players spend minerals feeding their sprite(s), then after they understand the intricacies of the game and have reached the more involved vanguard missions, they could use minerals with the artifact to design levels and/or call forth existing ones (reminiscent of the old gate construction) - with other players, we'd surely all agree on the best (arenas, as well as player-created levels approved by staff), resulting in gates we are proud of and happy to play in together.

These are more reasons to play, besides personal gain from drops and heating. Let the desire to create and explore be the drive for us to be in the arcade, not the false "need" to grind. The game is suffering in part because of a horrible grind, despite them advertising no grind. I suppose they can claim that... if the grind is "optional," but come on.

Okay I still made huge blocks of text. I am just passionate about what I believe will make the game much more enjoyable for a huge percentage of the playerbase.

On a side note more related to the specificity of this thread, I think they could get rid of one of the DaN randomly generated levels, especially if they make the whole thing deeper as OP as proposed (which would make sense with the core terminal anyway, don't even get me started on depth issues. *cough* A New Threat *cough* Breaking in the Recruits *cough* Grinchlin Assault *cough* several others. Also, loading into DaN's terminal unlocks the "hardcore" achievement...well, it did. I'm not sure if it still does. Just hilarious. Also, Apocrea is deeper, it's not like there has to be a hard depth limit that's all mysterious like Shadow Lairs). They didn't even bother giving these two levels unique names as they do with other missions, even HoH has floor name variability. This would cut down on grind time too, and be a less...intrusive treatment. Certainly not a cure.

TL;DR: I agree, but feel that there is a "deeper" solution we can reach as a community. Give us dynamic heating options to reduce the grind, and allow us to create our own levels as well as call forth our most favorite areas together (similar to old gate construction), providing more incentives to play than personal gain.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 16:02

Melonfish

You have run a grave miscalculation.

Dreams and Nightmares should very clearly end at depth 33.

Mon, 11/23/2015 - 18:38

Dats-Mah-Boi

@OP 12 items? Ok yeah I see

@OP

12 items? Ok yeah I see your pain lol

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 12:37

Fangel

Agreed-esk

While I'm fine with grinding dreams and nightmares (average run for me is probably around 15 minutes. Reliably takes me 8 minutes to finish the final arena, and about 7 to get there), I know I'm not like most people, and most people aren't too happy with endless grinding.

Having a radiant fire crystal farm that is difficult in gameplay means only the elite will be running it, but overall, only the elite seem to be complaining about radiants anyways, so it's mostly okay there.

Guaranteed arenas I'm going to have to say no to. There's various ways to make the arcade better, but taking away its random gate construction is not a good design. Making the arcade expand beyond the core terminal would be a better way to go about it.

Having a depth ??? swarm arena in the arcade would be amazing - perhaps you'd need to be rank 10-2, or 10-3 (if we get that) to dive into this area, with similar rules to current arcade doors (invite party members to next area, despite having no clearance). There would be a single "step beyond" prep level, this time without Vaelyn running along with you, and then a sort of endless arena mode after that. Dreams and Nightmares level of difficulty, but with a helpful Euclid fighting alongside you. Euclid would back out for boss fights, leaving you and your team to take it on. After every boss there would be several red treasure boxes, and then an additional choice for several red treasure boxes, or the same amount of green treasure boxes plus a good amount of health boxes (party button split). Teams would need to choose between more survivability, or more loot.

Additionally, an injured Rulen could attempt to throw your team random consumables from all tiers for you to use during each fight, but when you run low on health capsules, that 1* health capsule will only give you one more hit.

Bottom line is we should get an addition to the arcade before a modification of it. Making radiant farming something that's fun to do, while hard, but also time efficient? You can bet you'll pull back veterans put off by the radiant grind, and people will be celebrating this really difficult but really rewarding arena. Arcade only breathes life into the arcade, however you could have a mini-arena in missions where you meet up with Euclid and only are there for a limited number of waves.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 16:28

Fehzor

Thank you guys for posting support on this topic, and please continue to do so. I would really like to get it read by someone so that we can possibly get more levels to farm so be sure to show your friends etc. Such an improvement as this one could be HUGE for the game, and could really do a number for how pleasant farming in Spiral Knights is.

Dracora

Wonderful ideas but ones that would require a lot of thinking and implementation.. which is the opposite of what this thread is about but still good to bring up. The heat lattice and things of that nature however would be pretty sweet for the game however, should the developer(s) want to consider such a thing. I would certainly pay up some energy once a year to just skip out on the mega grind that awaits me every time I log on.

Level editors and things of that sort would also be incredible, but that goes without saying, seeing as how I suggested that as well.

Fangel (and kind of others?)

I clarified and reorganized the OP quite a bit, as I had been meaning to for some time. The guaranteed arenas would only be at D27 and D28 and mostly as a temporary measure until something like what you are suggesting, because overall going a step beyond would be way way more fun and you know that I want that. I do not hold out hope for any real updates however.. which is why they would do something like the arenas as a place holder for greatness. Aphrodite said the next update would be xmas which is kind of confirmation that they are not working on the game at a fast enough rate to NOT do something like the arenas.

Do read the new OP though. I clarified that the arenas should be something of a temporary add in, since I really did not before.

Also both the apostrophe key and dash key are broken on this computer (it is not the one that I normally use) which annoys the crap out of me because I like to abuse and overuse those and I got the stuff to make tuna salad crackers at Wegmans today because that is yummy sounding. Was a good suggestion for a meal though tonight is gonna be awesome pizza so yea.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 16:58

Fangel

Arenas at the end of D27 and D28 in the arcade still isn't entirely needed. Granted, having arenas at the end of one gate, at the very least, would be very nice, it's not really... Well, a solution. I mean, it sort of is, and you recognize it is temporary, but it sort of takes away the fun randomness that is the arcade.

Really we just need every level to be worthwhile, box wise. Making compounds have really high-box rates in a danger room would be fantastic, and make players not feel bad ending up in a D28 compound.

But having more radiant farming locations would be great. I'd love if we could get elevator depths that jumped around correctly, so that Shadowplay starts us at D24 but ends at D28, and Dreams and Nightmares would start us at D29. I think more farmable, unique, and fun missions would be a better solution to radiant farming rather than making the arcade lose its randomness in favor of arenas.

Again, anything that happens after the core terminal is fair game in the arcade, as we can go anywhere with that, but leading up to the core terminal should probably be left as is.

Wed, 11/25/2015 - 17:26

Fehzor

I mean it does not have to be an arena. Optimally it would be one of many high paying levels designed to end off the second stratum with a similar level designed to go directly before Basil. So you would have the following:

Depth 19 to 21 = like it currently is

Depth 22 = New level, with somewhat high payout and many boxes, on par with arena.

Depth 23 = basil, like it currently is

Depth 24 to 26 = like it currently is

Depth 27 and 28 = two levels designed to go with one another that provide a huge challenge with huge rewards

Depth 29 = core terminal

Depth 30 to wherever.. 33? = enter the core and have a go at... something? We do not know!

This way the game would be written somewhat like a book.. you have the normal areas and then you build up to a story arc and it is fantastic. Currently the game does not have this and so is rather flat; imagine if Harry Potter was written without story arcs.. the horror of it.

The one issue with implementing a more rounded system like this is that it takes a lot of work and I do not think that Spiral Knights is supported enough to actually get this amount of work, which is why the few arenas (until improvements are made) are needed. It might be a cop out of sorts to do this, but a cop out is considerably better than just flailing about being dysfunctional, which is what the arcade is currently doing when it comes to this area.

Another idea would be to give out 30 or 40 red treasure boxes at the core terminal. This would be to a similar effect, but slightly worse as it would create gates that are alright ending with compounds but also gates that are kind of over done ending with 2 arenas and the 30 to 40 boxes.. I do not know and really just want the arcade to give players something worthwhile after they spend an hour and a half to two hours to get down there, since that sort of time commitment should be rewarded and is currently kind of spotty as gates can just end abruptly with compounds or decon zones.. again, like if Voldemort just failed to show up in Harry Potter, and Harry just did his finals and went home... you would be like OK YES BUT WHERE IS THE DARK LORD??

Mon, 11/30/2015 - 10:10

#10

Fehzor

Before we let this thread drop off the radar, is there anyone that disagrees with this notion?

Namely the bumping up of those levels to 27 and 28.

Mon, 11/30/2015 - 10:58

#11

Bopp

comments

Minor quibble: Instead of "Levels that should end on..." you should write "Missions that should end on..."

Minor quibble: It Came From Below currently ends with an Unknown Passage level that has no boxes. You want this at depth 28, so that the preceding level is depth 27? Then you propose to "add a handful of boxes". To which level?

Moderate issue: Reasonable players may disagree with your assessments of mission difficulty. Generally, missions get easier the more you run them. In particular, players underestimate the difficulty of FSC because they have done it so many times (and optimized their gear for it). I found my first DaN to be easier than my 100th Vanaduke.

Major issue: Low-paying compounds are a problem at depth 27 and 28, but they're also a problem at depth 15 and depth 21 and everywhere else. The solution is to fix compound payouts. This is both easier and better than trying to force particular levels at particular depths (e.g. arenas at 28).

Mon, 11/30/2015 - 13:14

#12

Holy-Nightmare

mmmmm.....

One possible reason that OOO won't do this is because this would make it easier to heat items (since crafting them is easy right now)... they want to keep you invested in the game for a long time (since that makes them money). This idea by itself cuts that time short... in order to keep the playtime up why not introduce something that makes it so that more effort is required to CRAFT an item while making it easier to HEAT that item?

Mon, 11/30/2015 - 13:51

#13

Fehzor

@Holy-Nightmare

If it is the case that Three Rings is making tons of money on selling crafting rarities then I'd suggest just lowering the prices in the supply depot and making that the norm again by making fire crystals rarer across the board as well. How much lower? 1000 energy = heat one item, including 3/4/5* heat crystals.

We cannot however know this, and my best guess is that the vast majority of knights are simply failing to fully heat things and settling for less as this is what I have observed among the various players I've inspected.

@Bopp

First, thank you for disagreeing with me. I really wanted to type more about this and see it explored more fully.

"It Came From Below currently ends with an Unknown Passage level that has no boxes."

Add a handful of boxes at the end of the unknown passage, at the end or add a core terminal of some sort to explain what's happening when the knight leaves and add them there. Whichever level ends it would have the boxes at D27.

"Reasonable players may disagree with your assessments of mission difficulty."

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion on difficulty, but many of these are to some extent 'upgrades' from the FSC formula:

Gauntlet: To run the final level consistently requires quite a bit of gear and/or practice, as all monster families are present. The small, trap laden arenas in gauntlet are easily comparable to the small trap laden arenas in FSC. There are 18 boxes at the end, comparable to the 30-40 present at the end of dreams and nightmares. I could see Gauntlet being D27, due to how short it is and how many non-rarities it produces.

Shadowplay: Contains almrian crusaders, deadnauts, howlitzers (instead of red rovers), and that poisonous construct/gremlin area at the end. These things are for the most part exactly what you see throughout FSC and then some.

It came from below: Isn't actually as hard as FSC but still showcases the swarm and unknown passage which contain enemies similar to those found in Dreams and Nightmares. For the most part it's fine, but getting zero loot on the unknown passage portion is kind of blech.. so instead, a handful of boxes containing goodies to compensate your loss of time (assuming you've got clearance and are running it for fun, as I often do) would be really welcoming. It would kind of like an easier dreams and nightmares that doesn't pay as much.

Danger missions: Levels like legion of almire introduce new enemies and gameplay mechanics that work directly against your favor, including those awful bubbles, deadnauts, bombies, and monstrous toxigel oiler abominations. I mean they're called 'Danger missions' and are marketed as being harder, so they should be treated like they're harder when it comes to rewarding the player.

"Low-paying compounds are a problem at depth 27 and 28, but they're also a problem at depth 15 and depth 21 and everywhere else."

Compounds actually doesn't have such a terrible payout..... until it comes to treasure boxes. In terms of crown and material drops, compounds is fine. In terms of being a problem at depth 21.. well, you can get the same rarities on depth 20, 19, 22, 24, 25, 26 and even 27/28 for that matter. So if you're going along and you hit a compounds it's no big deal- you just get more crowns and materials than rarities for that level. The fact that you never need them is a bigger issue that can't be solved as easily.

Mon, 11/30/2015 - 13:52

#14

Bopp

right, treasure boxes

Right, about compounds I meant treasure from boxes not monsters, because this thread is about rarities not crowns. I would be interested in embiggening the former, even if it meant downsmalling the latter (for example, by making the minis not drop anything). I would be fine with making the same tradeoff for compounds at all depths. As far as I can tell, plenty of players are aching for 4-star orbs.

Mon, 11/30/2015 - 14:13

#15

Fehzor

Yea, I wouldn't oppose compounds becoming boxier with less crowns/materials but I'd much rather we be required more materials for crafting.

Mon, 11/30/2015 - 18:59

#16

Falminar

you can get the same rarities on depth 20, 19, 22, 24, 25, 26 and even 27/28

You don't get the same rarities on depth 23 though??

Mon, 11/30/2015 - 19:27

#17

Fehzor

Not if Basil can help it. But I suppose you would.

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List of missions that should end on D27/D28, for the purpose of radiant fire crystals