boring, pointless.

I'd love to love LD again, but I don't love LD anymore for a number of reasons.

* Competitive LD is just dead. No one is pushing the meta further. No one is reaching new levels of skill. No one, not even people with 1000s of hours in LD bother with developing any sort of gamesense or understanding for underlying mechanics to get better. A year ago when I'd play LD I'd find actually skilled players who understood techniques, prediction, et cetera. Nowadays my #1 cause of death is Sealed Sword spam by 2-3 strikers.
* I personally found that I peaked in skill. At some point the only way to get better is improving ping and gear.
* The community was really toxic whether we're looking at pro-AT or no-AT.
* This forum is absolutely worthless. Anyone who makes a serious thread either gets no replies or a bunch of sarcastic overdone jokes about the same thing.
* Getting a game on the Eu servers is more or less impossible without talking people into queueing up.

I know this post is somewhat off-topic but I fancied getting that off my chest.

Hi

@Holy
I've seen your argument multiple times. Solid points, but just a few I don't quite agree with:

1) Status effects are so excessive that they can determine the outcome of an entire match alone. This is WHY variants on armor are fair. Having shock max is the only counter to a seasoned polaris spammer. Just think: one stray shot from the polaris that shocks you and you're done. AT acheron uselessness. Statuses in my opinion are worse than AT, only the bombs should be able to inflict status because they are hideously underpowered.

2) Your argument on AT doesn't really make sense (grammar is a bit weird maybe?), but I feel like the aiming is sufficient enough where one can learn it quickly enough from playing the main game, so it wouldn't really affect much. Ping isn't an argument for AT either because anybody with a constant ping can become great. Keyword: constant.

3) Straight down view? I can see this....might make the game look a bit less interesting, but it may work? Tbh i think a first person view would be sick, but that would never happen.

I have the feeling that if you had made LD, it would be much more intense because you would actually have to think about your actions instead of how it is, mindless AT acheron button mashing. No heart trinkets, no second chances. Sounds awesome actually

You realize someone actually skilled can destroy you without trinks right? Even without AT, ASI and prolly trinkets remet could lol rip you

I don't care if they force everyone to use AT and make all hits OHKO if they can guarantee everyone has 0 lag and 0 latency. I swear, the servers have gotten worse over time. It was nowhere near this laggy back in the T2 days. It's also weird how some people can perform really well one week then horribly a few weeks later with the exact same playstyle.

I agree with Krakob that at a certain point you just can't get better. Short of reading people's thoughts before they even think them, there are some matchups that just can't be won by the underdog.
There are loads of people who have "peaked". It's just that some people are able to peak higher due to their connection advantages/UVs, etc.

Oh dear. I wasn't planning on posting anything productive here, but at this point it's not like it'll get any more uninformed by staying out of the discussion.

It surprises me that people assume UVs are going to make or break a player in terms of ability when that's pretty much not the case. Anyone competent enough with a Flourish can dismantle a lobby in LD wearing full Vog Cub, and anyone competent with a Flourish + Blaster-weapon-of-your-choice can dismantle in full Fallen armor, regardless of UVs. We can argue this point all we want, but it's a simple fact. I won't comment on the "pay to win" aspect aside from pointing out that you're overgeneralizing without clarifying whether you mean people spend real money in order to craft/purchase high-end gear or grind PvE in order to get crowns to craft/purchase high-end gear.

To that end, status-resistant UVs have been a trend since Lockdown started, and most of which evolved out of necessity to negate area denial tactics from bombs. In this capacity, the only thing that OOO could have done differently would be to alter the status strength of bombs in either direction: more strength to make it harder to resist these statuses, or less strength so they're easier to deal with and thus negate the need for rolling for status UVs. In addition, damage-resistant UVs are a lot less of a factor now since the overhyped-but-still-oddly-balanced Gunner update, since Normal + Pierce max sets are no longer the meta. Find someone resistant to Normal damage? Get a Flourish. They're resistant to that too? Get a Phantamos or Arcana. The same 2-3 sets someone mentioned in the post can be equipped with weapons besides the typical FF + DA/GF combination that everyone seems to favor; you cannot blame a small portion of the playerbase for the overall playerbase's lack of ingenuity when it comes to playing outside of the box.

Trinkets aren't a valid argument since they require you to do what, 3-4 FSCs per month to maintain the slots? (average of 8-10k cr per run depending on how RNGesus feels that day) That's more "play to win" since it forces you back into the Clockworks in order to maintain these slots. And just to nix this point before it's made, weapon slots are in no way, shape or form a necessity for LD and cater solely to a player's style more than anything else. I've seen players tear through lobbies using only one weapon, and I've seen more do it with just two. Hell, I've done both myself and while I hate using myself as an example for my own points, I've played without damage bonuses and focused only on ASI and I'd say I do comparably, if not better, than I do in my gear that I've worked on over the years.

This pretty much only leaves connection as an issue, and while I can't say whether they've relocated servers or not (I still get the same ping I did before when they were located in Ashburn, Virginia), the latency spikes are universal for nearly everyone now. Yes, I am aware that players who are not from the United States (and some who are from the West Coast, even!) get shafted in terms of playable games vs. unplayable games. Conversely, I've also seen players from Australia and Hawaii still doing leagues better than some of the people who complain actively about the game's lag and connection. This brings me to my final point.

If you cannot adapt, you should not play. Yes, this applies to new players as well as old. I am aware that the LD community is dwindling, and I would argue that it's unfortunate simply because it means the variety of playstyles that people get to see is also dwindling as a result. But at this stage in SK's life, AT is an inevitability. UVs are an inevitability, regardless of how they are obtained or who is using them. Trinket slots and weapon slots are an inevitability. Aside from connection issues, bitching about things like AT and UVs time and time again does nothing to solve the problem. Focus less on how others are playing and more about how you're playing, and you'll find the game to be a lot more enjoyable.

You can't weaken haze bombs any further they already deal the weakest possible status strength. UVs on armor are not necessary as there is an armor with immunity to every minor status immunity (including the obsolete sleep).

Trinkets are not unfair if the game was designed with one class in mind and everyone had them. However, trinkets do screw with the Class balance, no longer does the striker go down to a DA/GF combo if they make a mistake and they are so fast they can run back to spawn to heal with little consequence; Recons and Guardians can't move as fast and if they get low on HP they can't escape. After any encounter they have to decide to keep pushing and capping just to get quickly killed by the returning striker or run back to spawn and risk getting cut down as they retreat.

Trinkets also make LD incredibly discouraging for new players, not only is their armor likely at a statistical disadvantage but they die in far fewer hits due to less HP. There is nothing quite like the feeling of nailing a trinketed player with a DA combo just for them to turn around, 2 shot you, and then watch them run back to spawn and heal..... you feel... robbed, cheated, something you shouldn't feel in a PVP game.

Except you know... TF2.... one of the great multiplayer PVP games. Sure the stock weapons aren't as flashy but they are indeed the most reliable in the game. Everything in TF2 has a tradeoff and it doesn't matter how much you spend you will never have items statistically more powerful than any other player. When you join you know that each death of your's is because you weren't as skilled as the other person.

Random crits? Maybe if you knew how they worked in TF2 you wouldn't complain.... https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Critical_hits

You wanna know what one of the most popular PVP video games of all time was? QUAKE.... You know how much you had to spend? Just enough to buy it off the shelf. After that it was battle of pure skill between you and whoever else was on the other team. You know how many people play the Quake series? Enough to have a freakin' convention! Even today!
http://www.gamecrate.com/quakecon-2016-dates-confirmed/11660

You know how many people attended the 2014 Quakecon? 9000! That's more than ten times the number of SK Steam players in the last 30 days!

Fairness in PVP is everything if you want to be great..... but if you're like Sega... you'll sell out for a quick buck.....

"Fairness in PvP is everything if you're PvP centered, but no. Spiral Knights is not PvP centered. It is PvE first and foremost and offered a PvP mode as an >extra< mode."

We just went in a circle again. The problem is that to make SK PvP much much more balanced/fair/skill based, all it takes is a few simple obvious changes. Might as well repeat the series of events.

Players suggest simple fix = remove AT from LD
Players complain for this to happen
OOO does nothing, doesn't reply to players
Players get annoyed

But at this point, removing AT would just cause the LD population that uses it (90%) to quit, further reducing the playerpool. There's no salvation for the game at this point really, just gotta play it as it goes and enjoy it for what it is.

I really don't understand why are you people arguing over a dead game. From what I hear during peak hours there is at most 2 lobbies open. That's a complete joke.

Also just to say something as a side note. Three rings has probably never done anything for pvp because only a small fraction of players ever get into it. From what I saw at peak times it had 50-100 players in lockdown at the very most while having over 1,000 players online in game. That's taking the best case scenario. Taking that into account you can see why all updates are pve centric.

The pokemon example is also a fairly bad one. The community sets rules for it's competitive scene, not the game itself. Pokemon is also made by a multi billion dollar company which can invest into the small player base which wants competitive pvp. Three rings can't.

Well when you encounter a bad PVP game what do you do? Likely you'll end up playing a few games and then get tired of constantly losing and never come back. People just don't get into SK PVP because even from the very beginning in the free for all brawl mode it was pay to win with damage armors and Asi UVs. OOO built on a broken gamemode as the foundation... it makes perfect sense that the pvp lobbies are small with the gamemode being unenjoyable for new players.

Actually if you play the game there are certain places that prevent the use of many of the Overpowered pokemon..... typically these are places in which you can get a ranking number (as I actually mentioned SK could do in #23). In fact Nintendo DOES have rules for competitive pokemon battles and uses them in the Tournaments they hold.
http://support.pokemon.com/FileManagement/Download/07294296edc545bca57c7...

I'm not saying SK has to invest a huge amount of time in building up a competitive LD community. Just give players the option to have a free for all brawl or a serious game with a couple rules in place.

I want to comment on Krabob's point - the lack of a progressing meta. There are a few things I'd attribute to that.

1. The fact that random lobbies don't separate by skill level means you're often mashed up in a jumble of veterans, not so veterans, and people who just want their participation trophy so they can afford a Voltedge recipe. This lack of coordination means we can only get 1v1 metas, and no team-based meta. This mix of people with unaligned goals and skill make it hard to progress, let alone establish, a meta when you can't develop much teamwork sense or coordination.
2. The cost of experimentation is too high, thanks to Radiants rarity. Gone are the days I'd make new 5* armors and asi low 5* weapons just for fun because the time cost to farm the Radiants I need requires playing the same PVE game that I no longer want to play. It is too expensive to make a weapon "for fun".

   What makes this worse is that all of the weapons that are good for farming (ie. Blitz Needle, Shivermist, Combuster, etc) are not ideal for Lockdown - worse, Polaris is actually so effective in PVE why on earth would a newcomer make a new gun just to avoid using a weapon they already have? So you really can't blame a novice for using Polaris in Lockdown - PVE has already trained him/her to do so.

   It takes roughly 40 vana runs to get the amount of Radiants you need to fully heat a 5* equipment, at 30 min per trip that's roughly 20 hours of Radiant hunting excluding Shadow Lair. Excuse the soft math, but ~20 hours of work (key word work, not play, it's work when all of PVE is mostly uninteresting to play now) for a whimsical thought that "this weapon would seem cool to use in ld" isn't worth it to me and probably many people. It's already a pain to level up new gear that I know is effective, let alone level something to experiment with.

   So to be clear, we're telling new people to farm to level up a blitz needle so they can farm some more to fully heat their 5* swords and guns for Lockdown? Pass.

#1 is the important point, because without separating lobbies by skill level, a) there will never be more than 2 lobbies happening at once because any newcomer just gets instantly crushed and questioning why they spent 200 crown to respawn all game, b) individual improvement plateaus and we never learn to play as a team because we could never establish any team-based meta

I agree with the disagreement.

Ok little blueflood, keep crying to yourself about AT while you spam pulsars and trash talk incessantly. Don't rage too hard though! I wouldn't want to see you delete Passunder like you deleted Blueflood. It's pathetic people like you that keep SK entertaining, crybabies like you that keep the SK community alive!

In regards to the actual content of your dumb rants (what little content they contain), AT acheron is great for quick kills against people who suck, but any good player knows FF is superior (faster, has further/wider range, only requires 1 more hit than acheron to kill). I wouldn't expect you to understand lol

And as I believe the great Contri? Darkcub? idr? once said, SK is dead so you are irrelevant

COD*
Player 1 uses aimbot**: Haha I'm getting all the kills!
Player 2 dies, respawns dies respawns...
Player 1 dies to noobtube***
Player 1 cries: Stop using GL**** it's boring! :(..........

*SK
**auto target
***Pulsar line
****Pola