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traitors

9 replies [Last post]
Tue, 12/22/2015 - 05:28
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum

heres an idea that im pretty indifferent to, but some guy I was talking about it with in game told me to post it

of course with anything with opposing sides there are traitors, but since all of the clockwork enemies see knights as enemies these guys should probably get their own rooms
basically their backstory is knights who ran into the clockworks and attack/mug/whatever other knights they find

for easiness of coding we can just make them one enemy class
deals: elemental (or maybe just normal, idk)
resistant to: elemental
neutral to: shadow
vulnerable to: pierce
the symbol could be the horse logos you see on the loading screen that tells you you can remove a pary member

(just to add this in, OOO needs to make sure that attacks that go through enemies actually go through these ones, theyll get a lot of pissed off players if thats in pve along with lockdown)

they would have a randomely generated armor set (matching set, for reasons explained later they can only be hall of heroes or non boss basil *coughgunnercough*) and a shield to match, if the set has no shield then its completely random
their weapon has the same reauirements, but whatever weapon they have it will deal elemental (or normal)

they will have the health of a zombie
their attacks will be like the veterans in that noob mission/breaking in the recruits/vaelyn (yes I know theyre the same things, just giving people references) giving them a more knight-like ai without extra dev time

they appear in rooms about half as common as a danger room (maybe 1/3)(these rooms are required to pass)
in clockwork tunnel levels, wolver dens, devilish drudgeries, not candlestick keeps though
the rooms would be like a regular party button with a gate on each side, leading into a room about the size of a danger room with toughboxes, sleeping bags, those canopy things, etc
once activated (by the pary button) three or four of the traitors will appear and the gates will lock until theyre all killed
maybe have a few boxes after defeating them, but I dont think its necessary
these rooms will be tier two and three only

special (ish) drops
these traitors have a 10% chance to drop a piece of their gear (at any star level)(no boss, shadow lair, event, reskins, etc)
only one piece can drop per traitor, in their respective stratum (2* in s3, 3* in s4, 4* in s5, 5* in s6) the proper star level is dominant, t2 will have 2 and 3*, t3 will have all of them
stratum 3, 66.67% chance for a 2*, 33.33% chance for a 3*
stratum 4, 66.67% chance for a 3*, 33.33% chance for a 2*
stratum 5, 5% chance for a 5*, 10% chance for a 4*, 35% chance for a 3*, 50% chance for a 2*
stratum 6, 10% chance for a 5*, 15% chance for a 4*, 25% chance for a 3*, 50% chance for a 2*

OOO could also stick some random missions into t2 and t3 (before vanguard probably) where you go in, find traitor arenas/rooms, free knights they took/loot they stole, whatever

edit 1: fixed the gear drops to be more reasonable

Tue, 12/22/2015 - 11:32
#1
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Eh

This idea has been tossed around every so often, and it's not too terrible of an idea, but eh. There's not too much of a reason for us to defect from the Spiral Order, especially since we're stranded on a hostile planet. Defecting from the Order will probably get them killed, not necessarily by Knights, but by all other things on Cradle. Gremlins might take them in, but Gremlins are disorderly and would probably just hold them captive for fear of them being assassins.

We've had a "knight" enemy built into the game for a while now in the case of Mecha Knights. Actual living Knights fighting against us may seem cool in theory, but it's not too wonderful in practice. What might be cool would be if we influenced the Sleeper, and thus the Clockworks, and it started pulling from Isora to create levels, and we would get Morai enemies that are essentially enemy Knights.

Dropping gear is sorta eh too. I would say for it to drop 2* or 3* most frequently, and in tier 3 it would get a 15% chance to drop 4*, and 10% to drop 5*.

Tue, 12/22/2015 - 12:34
#2
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
hm

I cant reasonably defend most of this suggestion as its only about 10% mine and I probably should have had the guy make his own forum account, but I can talk for what I did

what I can say is that lore wise its possible, people go rogue in any conflict, thinking they can benefit more from taking from their side rather than recieving, and seeing how knights keep outposts and that we can run the entire clockworks without dying (at meast some of us can) some could find a way to survive on their own, possibly getting supplies from emberlight or moorcroft manor
and for the rest of cradle trying to kill them, thats why (that part was my idea) I had them alone in their own rooms, because of course they wouldnt get along well with native species

and I covered this part about putting them in as the same AIs as the veteran knights in that mission with the ironwood sentinel/breaking in the recruits/vaelyn, those seem to have enough "free will" to be knights but are still pretty stupid and likely easy to beat in the isolated scenarios I described

I agree with the gear part, I just had that as the other guy had it temporarily until I found someone to use as an excuse to change it to more reasonable ratios

Tue, 12/22/2015 - 13:11
#3
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Yeah

I can see players attempting to farm arcade for these danger rooms to pass their hall of heroes requirements, hence why you want to have small percentages for the higher drops. If those drops were bound it wouldn't be too big of a deal but it's just one more way to get around the system.

Lore-wise we have had a defector - we were sent to retrieve him and it didn't turn out too well. From what I can tell Spiral Knights are simply honor-based beings, and so defectors would have to have broken some honor code. Arkus didn't want to fight us, but since we would've taken him back to HQ by force, he stood his ground.

One thing to keep in mind is that the subtowns are friendly to Knights, but likely only the Spiral Order, seeing as how we have several knights stationed down at those depths. Rogue knights would have to acquire all things on their own.
Having specific scenario rooms is okay but still sorta eh.

Basically I guess my point is that encountering these knights is pretty much its own little battle that doesn't need to happen. It's kind of unimaginative and doesn't add anything interesting. I do sort of have a solution to this though.

Imagine if Three Rings worked a sort of NPC "rival squad" into the game. This would be a squad of knights led by another NPC knight who is highly competitive and wants to sort of prove themselves as being the best knight of the Spiral Order. While this knight isn't a bad knight themselves, they see all of your accomplishments and want to prove themselves. This knight will always reach the next rank up before you (outside of vanguard, they will forever be a champion), and will have a few missions added to the game where they either assist you, or compete against you.
The idea is that you have a healthy competition with this Knight who, over time, gathers a small squad of knights together. They will appear in various story missions, either helping you defeat a tough enemy ("Hey look who's here! Glad to see me?"), or being a sort of antagonist ("Well well well, who do we have here. You're after that treasure too huh? I guess we'll have to settle this the hard way!").

Early on, the knight starts as a single squad knight, believing they can take on anything. After reaching the snarbolax they realize they need a squad, and get another knight on their side. Royal Jelly adds a third, and Roarmulus Twins adds a fourth. Now to make this interesting, each member has a different role. The knight that is the anti-you is the squad leader, second member is a striker, third member a recon, fourth member a guardian. Each member has a different attack style, with the squad leader alternating between weapons.

Now while story mini-bosses are confined to the missions, this rival squad could actually be put into the clockworks as a random encounter. In stratum 1 it's just the squad leader, strata 2 and 3 squad leader + striker, stratum 4 squad leader + striker + recon, strata 5 and the full squad. Heck, for challenge's sake this enemy squad could even revive any downed knights in your party before engaging the fight because they're competitive, not brutal... Or, well, maybe they wouldn't fight you if one of your members was downed because that'd be breaking a knight's honor code.

This sort of encounter would make all parts of the game really stand-out and interesting, as you could run into this squad pretty much anywhere, and depending on where you run into them they either will make your life harder or easier.
Hell, perhaps they give you a usable item that summons their squad to assist you, with a few easter eggs depending on where you use it (eg. in a fight with them they pick up the receiver and just are all "??????, seriously?", in Haven they'd join you for a moment saying "Hi _______, here to he-.... Wait for real? No, I won't help you in your bid war, earn that money yourself!", in your guildhall they'd join and say "Hi ______, what's the-, oh for crying out loud... I mean I like what you did with the place but I've got skulls to crack", and in lockdown they're all "What the occa- oh #&%$ no I don't need my pride broken in front of a crowd"). Just something as simple as this rival squad would breathe a lot of personality into the game.

Tue, 12/22/2015 - 19:48
#4
Blue-Knife's picture
Blue-Knife
Blip

I really like the "Rival Squad" idea, but I'm not so sure it can be worked in to the current Rank Mission system too well. There's not much more space for new missions to be added (unless you add a whole new set of 5 missions), and I think that it'll interrupt the flow a bit too much. The new missions might fit quite well into the Expansion Missions tab under the Mission interface, or even a new Mission tab entirely. I also think that the Rival Squad should be a bit more conversational/more easter eggs, since without it, it's just a mini-game of Lockdown with NPCs.

As for the original traitor idea, I think that it's quite interesting, but the equipment drops should be very rare, (somewhere between getting an orb from a treasure box and getting a Mecha Knight Kit/Recon Signal Flare/Artillery Strike/Auto Turret Kit from a treasure box) since an equipment drop is worth quite a bit, since as Fangel said, you'd be able to farm arcade to just pass Hall of Heroes missions and also considering that equipment costs a lot to make, from the recipe, crafting, and orb costs of it.

Tue, 12/22/2015 - 21:27
#5
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Eh sort of

My idea was that rival squad encounters would be added to existing missions. For example, your first encounter with said Knight might be during the "toy soldiers" (3-1) mission, or the "faith in armor" (3-2) mission. The rival squad would be in your mission lobby for all of your boss encounters, warning you of the dangers ahead, but saying "don't worry, i'll take care of everything, just give me a few minutes to prepare".

Second mission encounter would be during the "chilled to the bone" (5-1) mission. Third encounter would be "axes of evil" (6-1) or "plan of attack" (6-1). Fourth would be "in cold blood" (7-2). Fifth would be "the vile engine" (8-2). Last encounter, at least rival-wise, would be "alone in the dark" (9-2). You would encounter their squad once again in the "It Came From Below" mission, however they would be trying to help the last living recon knight stay calm. They might say something like "this squad really was hit hard. You were able to take down Lord Vanaduke, eh _______? I say you go up ahead. We'll try to get these recons back to Haven safely".

Heck, it could open up the idea of something super creepy, like after you load into the unknown passage, they try to contact you via comlink to tell you not to go forwards; to come back, but the message is all scrambled and unintelligible. After you complete the 10-1 missions, the rival squad will be in the lab, and talk to you about how concerned they were to lose someone with such special talent such as yourself. From this point on, hell, you could even make these knights into a special vanguard vendor, or make them into some new and interesting idea for the endgame. Special bound accessories perhaps? Prestige store? Let your mind wander.

Bottom line is that this rival squad would be added into various missions as a way to break up the action, add a bit of attitude, but also to allow for minibosses in the arcade. The could be trudging through the arcade, spawn with some of the monsters in a room, and after clearing the room you can talk to them and they'll say something like "Hey, what do you say, want to test your might?" Heck, you could make some battles mandatory, like the loot box one I gave earlier.

This programming also opens up the idea for lockdown bots to replace players when a leaver happens. Two birds with one stone, eh?

Tue, 12/22/2015 - 22:41
#6
Falminar's picture
Falminar
+1 to that rival squad.

The original suggestion also sounds interesting, but I feel that they shouldn't be traitors and that we should fight them for a different reason...

Wed, 12/23/2015 - 04:55
#7
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
...

@fangel that seems like a completely difderent idea fhat needs its own post

@vana do you have any better ideas? or at least a reason for not liking them being traitors?

Wed, 12/23/2015 - 12:54
#8
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Eh

Rival Squad is sort of my solution to traitors. While traitors doesn't make much sense, a rival squad who is fighting you as a challenge is a pretty great alternative. This also means that you don't have to kill the squad, instead perhaps simply downing them. After they are downed then their ERs kick in and they back off, outside of the squad leader, who is pretty hotheaded and is willing to spark themself a few times.

By making a rival squad it creates a sort of artificial competition and makes every encounter feel fun. Think of it like your rival in the later Pokemon games - they are a good friend, but perhaps overly ambitious and challenge you to see how good you've gotten. Traitors would just become another enemy, a special one, but would't be all that interesting. They would be like that carnavon scenario room in candlestick keeps - rare, interesting for about 3 seconds, then over and done with. A rival squad that can appear in the clockworks? That's fun on so many levels, despite it requiring a fair bit more programming.

Thu, 12/24/2015 - 14:36
#9
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
thats still completely different

and I dont see how adding an entire new storyline/aspect to the game is fine but adding traitors (something that appears in everything with sides) isnt, and the (sort of) rare equipment drops would make them more interesting, but what youre doing here is like saying "I dont like this specific kind of candy, so ill replace it all with vegetables", sure, youre idea is ok, but it has no relation to the suggestion other than knight vs knight

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