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It's been a while since the last update and...

6 replies [Last post]
Sat, 02/20/2016 - 10:53
Old-Joe-Smoke

Basically, I just wish a double weapon/double shield mechanic could be made.

A person could choose between holding two weapons, and having no protection, (although the shield canceling techniques could still be kept, you just wouldn't have the actual shield) which would give you double damage. (speedruns) the charge attacks could be changed up for a double weapon attack. Brandishes could have like a diagonal burst, or maybe going forward and backward, pushing the enemies in front and back. Sealed Sword could do like a 6 projectile attack on the front, or sides. Blitz Needle would have and incredible damage output if this could be made. For bombs, maybe the whole bomb mechanic could be changed. With 2 bombs, maybe the CTR could be almost instant, or just go back to the instant place from the beta, but still keep the damage and radius?

Shields on the other hand, would have a very small damage output, and maybe like a new mechanic could be implied with them? Like, the knight could turn into a rock if he has the Stone Tortoise or and of the tortodrone shields, and roll around, stunning and dealing area damage to enemies. The double-shield would be more a supportive party member person, where he would have the ability to put up the 2 shields and make the "red-line" type of shield that mecha-knights have. Or maybe he'd have the same abilities that a guardian has in lockdown, except doubled or something.

All in all, I think this'd be a great way to add new farming techniques, and speedruns for the game. The whole "double-shield" and "double-sword" thing could be like a mission that would give new players a choice in which "class" they could join. As for players that are already playing the game, they could also just do the mission for the same choice. You could choose between Classic:Sword and Shield, Offensive:Double-Weapon, and Defensive:Double-Shield.

It'd also work just like sprites, where you could by a class "ticket" or "pass" that would allow you to use either or both of the other classes too. Becoming a vanguard could also maybe allow you to use all classes... What are your thoughts everyone?

Sat, 02/20/2016 - 12:02
#1
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Hmm.

Is this suggesting for new weapon lines and mechanics, or saying something like "you have two weapons from your arsenal which are already balanced around only having one, but now they are active at the same time effectively making two clicks kill anything"? Because the latter is how dual wielding threads are typically set stated, and is something we really don't need.

An overall way to make dual-wielding work would be to lock weapons at their 4* power level (appearance-wise, too), and make sure they don't overwrite your shield. On top of that, reduce damage, increase charge times, and give an attack speed decrease. Potentially even add a movement speed decrease while holding the weapon. Two weapons + a shield is clumsy, but in the end you're getting twice the hits out in a quicker span of time. Depending on how powerful that turns out, you might even have to just make players swing 2/3rds or 3/4ths of the new swing total. With enough stat boosts, you'll make the weapon competitive with their stat boosted 5* versions, and still play differently.

I would say limit your weapon options however. Only specific weapons would have this capability.
Weapons I would include in the type of dual wielding I listed would include:
Sword: Winmillion, blazebrand, blizzbrand, silent nightblade, hunting blade, vile striker, ascended calibur, cold iron carver
Gun: all antigua, all blaster variants, all alchemer variants
Bomb: graviton bomb, electron bomb, all shard bomb variants, master blast bomb, irontech bomb

On the topic of bombs, bomb charge times would be doubled, however you could place a single 4* bomb at half charge (indicated by a blue charge period and glow around your knight), and an increased intensity version of the bombs at full charge (indicated by the yellow charge we all know). Vortex bombs would increase their suck radius by 50%, and damage by 100%. Shard bombs would increase the shard count by 25%, damage would be increased by 75%, and the shards themselves would damage enemies on touch like a tortogun charge projectile. Blast bomb variants would have 50% more range, 50% more damage, and would have a huge knockdown/flinch capability on top of their high knockback. I hope you like seeing gremlins fly.

Overall, weapons would have similar attack styles, but 3-hit combo weapons would have a 4-5 hit combo and a unique charge attack, and 5-6 combo weapons would have a 8-10 hit combo... Alchemers being the odd one out and only being boosted to a 3 hit combo.

Now, double shields? That's not something I've seen suggested before as far as I know. I really don't see the point of them, especially since weapon + shield is a great formula as is. Having shields on both arms might be kind of neat though, and potentially provide more defense at the cost of movement/attack speed. Think of it like adding ancient plate to your shield for 50% more defensive power at the cost of some of your offensive power.

I guess bottom line is that the formula we have right now works the best way it could for this game, however reimagining what can be included while keeping to that formula is always welcome.

Sat, 02/20/2016 - 14:15
#2
Qwez's picture
Qwez

I feel like you're suggesting dual-weapons make you become a super glass-cannon-mini-boss. I don't think that really fits this game...
Having no protection, but shield-canceling means that you can go full berserk-shield-cancel without bumping enemies away, but you're screwed if you're surrounded/cornered.
The charge attacks are ridiculous.
Your bomb suggestions are ridiculous; it's like you want bombs to be as good as guns (somewhat joking, somewhat serious).
"maybe the CTR could be almost instant, or just go back to the instant place from the beta, but still keep the damage and radius?"
No. Haze bombs effects are not linked to its explosive damage or radius. The strength of two different haze bombs instantly is quite strong even if you limit the radius to a more suitable range (eg. 3* range).
If you do either of the things you mentioned for bombs, they start to get broken because then the only weakness left is how long it takes to kill the enemy, rather than danger during charging bombs (being unable to shield in time).
It's fine that I can't shield anymore, I can pay more attention to the battle if I have a reduced charge time or no charge time. On the more extreme end with instant placement, bombs would become better than guns for safe damage. This will give bombs safe, crowd damage. This encroaches too much on the functionality of guns as safe damage.

I'm just going to suggest my own implementation of dual-weapons (guns and swords only).

  • No charge attacks (for simplicity sake, could always do something about it later)
  • Shielding instantly takes half the shield bar. (discouraging heavy shield-canceling)
    Shield regenerates more quickly
    Shield regeneration delay reduced
  • Attacking will alternate from right hand to left hand
    Max attack combo is foremost limited by lowest ammo capacity (eg. Magnus&some-other-weapon = 4 attack combo)
    Max attack combo is the sum of the combo of the two weapons (eg. Troika&Cutter = 7 attack combo)
    The same combo counter applies to both weapons on each alternation (so with swords you will end up doing multiple "combo-ending" attacks in succession) (eg. Troika-lefthand & Cutter-righthand attack combo: Cutter1, T2, C3, T2, C5, T2, C5)
    Attack speed is limited by that of the slower weapon
  • EDIT:

  • The weapon in the shield slot can only be changed at an Arsenal station

I feel like this is reasonable. This encourages the player to commit harder to offense, as the significant shield drain on use makes poking, bumping, and defending more difficult.

Dual-shields sounds like it needs a whole lot of details, so I'm not going to consider it for now. I have seen dual-shields in a game called Exteel, where players usually only used it for CTF. It was fine in that game, because there wasn't a 'shield' button, it was 'activate left hand' and 'activate right hand', which lent itself to dual guns, swords, shields. Dual-shields could have a place in this game, but you need to be able to do some better damage with the shieldbash and maybe some attack animations for the shield (or perhaps introduce some defensive missions where damage doesn't matter so much).
"Like, the knight could turn into a rock if he has the Stone Tortoise or and of the tortodrone shields, and roll around, stunning and dealing area damage to enemies."
Knight used rollout! This is some next level spiralmon.

I do not believe there should be "classes". However if there are classes, at most they should be optional as Battle Sprites are.

EDIT:
@Fangel
If why would I use dual weapons with slower attack speed and less damage if I could shield-cancel-switch. Or are you suggesting to reduce the sum of the damage from the two weapons?
Are you assuming dual-wielding two exact same weapons?
If so, I feel this system you're proposing is a bit too restrictive.

I think that half-charge mechanic for bombs would be interesting to have by default for all bombs. But I would apply it for a different purpose.
I feel like the half-charge mechanic would be a nice mid-point between the instant bomb placement in beta and full charge time for bomb placement.
There will be reduced damage & range (for Nitro, Spike-whatever, Retribution), or reduced secondary explosion effects (no shards, no vortex, smaller haze).

Sat, 02/20/2016 - 14:39
#3
Old-Joe-Smoke
Thank you for replying.

My idea was, that you would have no shield whatsoever if you chose double-weapon, and you would have a very small damage out-put if you were double-shield. As I said, they would be class-types, so if you chose one, you would be giving up something for an extreme advantage. You know how the enemies like mecha-knights, trojans, and mortafires are completely invincible in on the front. This is something that a double-shield wielder could do, but on all sides. This would make things like Winterfest pretty easy, except that you are completely immobile during shielding, just to keep it from being totally broken. (And maybe shield-bumping would be removed from that too?) With double-weapons, you become a damage fountain. I do agree bombs would be WAY TOO powerful now that I think about it with that quick of a charge. (I believe the Sun Shards was a broken bomb in beta) And the "classic" would be our regular weapon and shield. You give something valuable, damage, or defense for the double-gear classes, or you stay in the middle with weapon and shield. Does that make it sound better?

Sun, 02/21/2016 - 18:55
#4
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Response!

If why would I use dual weapons with slower attack speed and less damage if I could shield-cancel-switch. Or are you suggesting to reduce the sum of the damage from the two weapons?
Yeah you got the idea there. There's already such a heavy output of damage with weapons as-is, attacking with both of them needs to be less powerful than if you were attacking with just 1. However you'll likely be able to kill a zombie in a full dual-wielded combo where it would take 1 or 2 combos with a single weapon of the same type.

Dual wield would thus become extended fighting with less initial power, but more power over time. Makes them their own weapon rather than just the same weapon we already have but even more powerful.

Are you assuming dual-wielding two exact same weapons?
Yes to this as well. These are optional sidegrades to weapon lines, thus not the typical "two hands two weapons" idea.

If so, I feel this system you're proposing is a bit too restrictive.
Eh, again, it's a sidegrade system that's mostly cosmetic. Not true "dual wielding", but makes old weapons act like new weapons in a way.

Sun, 02/21/2016 - 19:32
#5
Old-Joe-Smoke
@Fangel

I was suggesting that the damage and attack speed are the same, you're just doubling it since you have 2 swords. Some animations would have to be changed to fit the attacks, but the stats would be the same.

As for shields, I already said you could become invincible while shielding, yet immobile. I don't seem to find any flaw with this idea...

Mon, 02/22/2016 - 01:17
#6
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/80345

My only regret is that of all the ideas I've posted, this was the one they chose to read.

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