I'm surprised I don't see this more often. If you do the shield-swap trick with swords, it's infinite swipes and you can still defend. If you use a cutter with it, you can move around and position yourself and still do swipes with a normal sword, without any endlag. Why don't people do it more often?
Gun Dualing with swords (now a conversation about guns in general?)
Thu, 04/14/2016 - 16:32
Fri, 04/15/2016 - 06:33
#2
title
Is this thread asking, "Why don't players use the weapon-switching trick with swords?" They do.
Is the title about guns just because weapon switching is more famous for guns? That's what's throwing me off.
Fri, 04/15/2016 - 10:38
#3
oh.
I guess it's just me then, thought I had a cool idea. I've really never seen anybody dual with swords, and most certainly not bombs, so I assumed it was just a guns thing. my b.
Fri, 04/15/2016 - 14:24
#4
...
I do it a lot with swords actually. I don't think anyone really does it with bombs as you need to charge.
Sat, 04/16/2016 - 17:21
#5
~
You can see it in almost every PvP video on youtube
Shouldn't be too surprised. The reason you don't see it often is that it's more useful with guns as you don't need to reload. Also because switching with swords is more useful in PvP than PvE. With swords, a chained combo does more damage. If you want to stay safe, then just using the first hit or two then switching would make sense - Which is why you see it a lot more in PvP than in PvE.
Sat, 04/23/2016 - 07:56
#6
A lot of swords lock you in place for the duration of the swing animation, so if you're switching efficiently (i.e. very little time between swings) You don't move a lot while performing this technique.
In LD you have the striker pack, which lets you move a fair bit faster while using your shield button to shield-cancel in order to switch fast, letting you have a lot more mobility between swings.
When you look at it simply:
guns punish you for hitting attack multiple times, by making you reload, and there's no benefit as the shots stay the same.
Swords encourage you to hit attack multiple times by giving you a combo swing that has more damage, and moves you forward so your swing connects more easily.
So single-switching is much more useful on guns than it is on swords. That's why you don't see it as much.
Sun, 04/24/2016 - 11:16
#7
....
Mostly because people keep a standard 1 Sword and 1 Gun loadout.....
Only those dedicated to a specific weapon type are likely to abuse switching.... those who buy an extra weapon slot can try out switching with no downside if the weapon type proves ineffective since they can bring a sword on a gun switching set, or a gun on a sword switching set.
Bombs also benefit from switching but only due to multistatus infliction and increased control (vortex + Haze bomb for example)
Mon, 04/25/2016 - 04:59
#8
@Holy-Nightmare
@Holy-Nightmare
You can weapon switch with 1 sword and 1 gun in a 2 slot load out as stated before...
Hence, a sword switching set + gun switching set with only two slots.
Extra upside to this : You could spend 69 hours grinding for 4 weapons and 2 slot expansions a month or you could take an hour or two to learn double switching.
Weapon switching with no downsides ( besides broken fingers in a few years ) at any economic status.
Probably the most advanced mechanic in spiral knights, showing that SK is a pretty simple game ( most advanced mechanic can be learnt in a few minutes with an hour or two of practice for muscle memory ), but with so much more depth than a lot of other games
Mon, 04/25/2016 - 10:13
#9
its not a mechanic
Its an oversight which allows for exploitation
Mon, 04/25/2016 - 14:11
#10
@Vohtarak-ForumQuoting
@Vohtarak-Forum
Quoting Mohandar from like, four years ago.
"This is a quirk of the game that became a feature. Similar to wavedashing in Smash Brothers, shield canceling and weapon switching are techniques that may not have been intentionally designed by the developers, but were discovered by players, adopted by the community and (implicitly) condoned by the developers. This is because they add depth and skill levels to the game; removing it would be a terrible mistake."
they add depth and skill levels to the game;
I love this game to death but if a dev/gm says you'll get banned for doing it, I'd rather be banned than play a game where its main combat mechanic is to hold a button and then release.
I mean, if I wanted to do that, I already have this game right here
Tue, 04/26/2016 - 12:18
#11
I'm still working on it....
They tell me I can do it with enough practice. But I've been trying for months, and my old fingers still can't get the hang of it. So far single-switching (don't even mention double-switching) is still much, much slower than shoot-and-pause. And I can't yet move nor aim while I do it.
Sigh. Don't mind me. I'll go just back to the training room.
Tue, 04/26/2016 - 21:17
#12
of course they have to allow it
There's no way to catch people who do it without being in the run themselves
Tue, 04/26/2016 - 23:48
#13
~
Firstly, if they wanted to remove something that creates depth in the game play, they'd have done it already.
Example? I don't think that you're aware of it but after the gunner update, the shield-less gun switch was removed. This only affected a small number of players, knights that played lockdown and played strikers and recons that knew how to weapon switch. This only affected guns. You can still do it with swords.
Secondly, they have a server that receives packets of data coming from your computer. They probably have a way of knowing what keys you're pressing.
Thirdly, how do you know that it's not a feature designed to add depth to the game? I don't even think being a gunner would be viable without it as swords have a much higher DPS.
Here are some things to consider.
Using the shield cancels the 'return back to normal stance' delay after an attack.
Pressing next weapon during an attack animation means that you'll switch weapons as soon as the animation's done.
These are very basic things you learn at least by T2. All you have to do is connect the dots and you have weapon switching.
Fourthly, If you'd like me to teach you how to do it, step by step in game, Vohtarak, or anyone else, add me in game and I will be more than happy ( I'd be excited, actually ) to help you.
Wed, 04/27/2016 - 12:36
#14
ok here we go
Firstly- people will freak out if its removed, and theres more important things to do than to take away someone's only skill
Secondly- they would have to account for accidentally switching, they would need a program to track, warn, then ban players who do it, the "easier to leave it" idea applies there
Thirdly- it wasn't intended, you said it yourself
Fourthly- I dont use anything that really benefits from switching, this really isn't a point
Wed, 04/27/2016 - 15:09
#15
~
Firstly: Of course I'd freak out. I'd freak out because that'd be the death of gunners.
Secondly: Only skill > No skill.
What do you have? Hold a button then release ? Spam the attack button ?
Third: If it's that easy to do (by accident), are you sure it wasn't implemented on purpose? They could've removed it very early in the game if it wasn't intended, not affecting a lot of people like the binding system did at that time.
Fourth: Don't put words into my mouth. "that may not have been intentionally designed by the developers"
Fifth: If you use any gun, the normal attacks benefit from switching.
Thu, 04/28/2016 - 08:00
#16
seriously?
First- if you think that switching is the only reason to be a gunner, you need to reevaluate things, massively
Second- aim, charge positioning, shoot and delay, etc
Third- they have clearly stated that switching is unintentional
Fourth-ill post it in fifth because you added another number
Fifth- magnuses (immobilization, exist for charging), tortofists (lunging, mostly for charge), neutralizer and storm driver (I use them for switches, or the storms charge), as I have said, and now explained, I dont need to switch
Thu, 04/28/2016 - 15:14
#17
~
First - I could call myself an artist because I have pens, pencils, paint and paper but if I don't know how to draw or paint, I'm not an artist.
I could still be a modern artist, not wanting to waste the paint that I crafted with energy and crowns but ya'know, modern "art."
Second - I thought those were just thing's you'd have.. Aim, seriously? You can have that with switching.. Shoot and delay? You mean lead shooting? Aren't these just things all players already have?.. Charge positioning? Man, you seem desperate to find something. Players already have all of this, in addition to weapon switching.
Third - And they have also clearly stated that they're living on Pluto, programming and designing the game from there. Oh wait, where's my source.
Fourth - Higher DPS. Wow, look! actual evidence.
Only using guns for their charge? How have you not quit the game out of boredom yet?
Thu, 04/28/2016 - 21:33
#18
your first does not apply
First- I was saying that being able to switch isn't the only reason to ever use guns, that went way over your head apparently
Second- I'm telling you skills that aren't weapon switching, which you imply dont exist, quote "only skill> no skill"
Third- I'm not going to dig for a thread to prove a point to a knight elite who's evidently not experienced enough to be worth data searching for
Fourth- this went over your head too, I never said it didn't help at all, I'm saying playstyle wise its not the best, tortofists and magnuses do not have reliable flinch without damage bonus, so no matter how much you pretend switching is always better, a person will be taking hits from being unable to move (magnuses) and lunging into attacks (tortofists), the periods at which you will need to keep moving would make switching impractical
Quitting of boredom- you've never used Magnus and tortofist charges evidently, theyre much better/more fun than the normal shots
Thu, 04/28/2016 - 23:16
#19
~
I like analogies.
First - Maybe this flew over your head but you don't have to be an artist to use paint. It just won't be as good.
2nd - Well, if you want to get technical about it, weapon switching isn't really a skill, it's a mechanic, a feature of the game. A mechanic is kinda like a tool. A tool is used to make things faster or easier. I just went with what you identified it as, since it was easier for arguments sake before.
ii. Yay, my favourite part, an analogy. Some people might find new tools difficult to learn or they might just use rocks tied to sticks because they've never held a sword (another tool) before. But a sword is so much more efficient than a stone tied to a stick.
3i - Oh yes, ranks determine everything. "Because I'm a vanguard, because I've played longer, because I'm older than everybody, I'm better than anybody else." Think and debate with your brain, not with your ego, please.
ii. Alt character
iii. I mean, if you want to get personal with the knight elite and everything (I've been trying to avoid it because evidently, you have a fragile ego), I've seen you in LD and you could REALLY benefit from weapon switching ( or anything at all lmao ). Just trying to raise the bar.
iiii. "they clearly stated that it was unintentional." - So you confirm that this is wrong, then? Thanks.
4th - And you've never seen the joy of weapon switching. Have you seen Tenkii play with a tortofist in LD? Have you seen him with alchemers? Have you seen Retequizzle with a Magnus?
You're. Missing. Out.
Fri, 04/29/2016 - 14:10
#20
@Vohtarak
I do not really have any connections to this subject for I only came due to Fruitalicious starting a commotion again.
Nope. Nothing to contribute at all. Certainly being a year-and-a-half long experienced Gunslinger proficient in both the Clockworks and Lockdown does not do anything to further my case that I am about to make.
_____
I originally bothered to read this to playfully mock Fruitalicious on creating this thread (we're Guildmates in the League of Gunners). However, I saw something that really hurts when I read the line:
magnuses (immobilization, exist for charging), tortofists (lunging, mostly for charge), neutralizer and storm driver (I use them for switches, or the storms charge)
*Magni
As Sipsy said, you are missing out on the beauty of Gunslinging. You are only using one aspect of those Handguns, and thus you cannot appreciate the Handgun's full ability. Just using a Charge misses out on tactics you may be missing out on. Let me tell you of my observations, Vohtarak:
Callahan's, Winter Grave's, and Iron Slug's basic hits have the ability to flinch enemies if strong enough and are not the initial hit. Utilizing them with traditional weapon switching means you can stun-lock a particularly troublesome enemy, like a Devilite. Some enemies may even flinch upon hit by a Magnus-type weapon if it is strong enough. That means you can stop a Devilite, Greaver, Gorgo, Gun/Rocket Puppy, Howlitzer, Polyp, Wolver, most Gremlins, Jelly Cubes; I've just listed a large majority of enemies you can encounter!
The same applies to Gorgofists, albeit it:
- Deals more damage if all hits connect
- The "Punch" is the only part capable of flinching enemies
- More dangerous to use than a Magnus
Catalyzers: You got me. I only use their Charge due to their nerf by the Gunslinger Update.
Alchemers is where I coughed and wheezed and teared up. To only use their Charge is like punching someone with your less-dominant hand (i.e: only using an accessory attack). You probably failed to see experienced Gunslingings wrecking havoc on everyone in Lockdown, for their normal attacks easily dispatch any enemies both in Lockdown and the Clockworks. Sure, you have a chance to deal massive damage to a single foe, but by that time you may have probably defeated two or three in the time you have spent charging and maneuvering.
Don't even get me started on Autoguns. I have sure most have never seen me in the Clockworks murdering everything with Dual Fiery Pepperboxes. I run through Devilite levels using only Strike Needles' normal attacks.
Fri, 04/29/2016 - 15:18
#21
last post here
Ill ignore the parts Ive already addressed, and the ones where you repeated yourself or didn't get what I meant, you've evidently been seeing different words than what I typed
1. I dont use the alchemer in lockdown, if you'd actually watched
2. I didnt confirm it was wrong, reread that a few times, and if youre an alt, then your main definitely hasnt used tortofists and magnuses
3. I dont use a tortofist in lockdown, and the winter grave is charge only, stop pretending you know how I play
4. You dont miss out if you dont do anything it would benefit from
@rhons
1. "Magni" feel free to prove that, I just use magnuses because everyone else does
2. I'm only missing out on what I found to be boring, making it faster won't make it fun
3. "If strong enough" meaning "with damage bonuses", the bonuses I dont use
4. charging kills things just fine, I dont care for stunlock on individual enemies when I can take out the crowd (dont start with saying " what if one is alone", I would use a rocket hammer on single enemies that arent resistant, and teammates usually kill stragglers anyways)
5. I dont bother hitting single enemies with tortofist normal hits, same reasons as 4
6. I could have been more specific with the storm driver to prevent you from almost dying from misunderstanding, I shoot it for the status, then I switch to a different weapon, who would actually charge spam with it?
7. I didnt mention autoguns because theyre pretty OP with anything, I'm sure that type of weapon would benefit from speed in any form, the cone type of attack makes it work best
Sun, 05/01/2016 - 04:37
#22
As someone who's very familiar with the technique, my answer is that it has little to offer in most cases save for when you're letting enemies repeatedly walk into you with heavy swords. You're losing out on interruption/knockdown, knockback, damage, and movement with this technique so the biggest appeal is the control it offers over your knight. That said, even if you want to apply it, it's tedious and seldom needs to be done because you have to move significantly enough for the timer to reset naturally before you hit the consecutive 1st hit roof, which is usually 3. For heavy swords it's 2, which is another reason it's more valuable for them. What's also to note is that you need to do a double switch if you want to do attack 1 -> cancel -> attack 1 -> attack 2 with a heavy sword (except WRH), so it becomes attack 1 -> cancel -> double switch -> attack 1 -> attack 2.
They do I see it all the time but when it comes to a lot of players they're set in stone with their starting gear lineup and aren't really open to trying new things.