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Bring back Mist Energy.

24 replies [Last post]
Fri, 04/29/2016 - 12:49
Umbra-Lunatis's picture
Umbra-Lunatis

Now, I know what you're thinking. Elevator restrictions, alchemical skipping, etc. go hand-in-hand with Mist Energy. Bad business.
However, my proposed augmentation to Mist as we know it includes a restriction on its uses to Clockworks activity alone.

My suggestion includes these:
--Re-introduction of Mist as an unsellable, untradeable, regenerating integer. Mist will be shared throughout an account, and will regenerate 2 at a time (every regenerated 2ME taking twice the amount of time 1ME would have regenerated at), with a cap of 100

--Augmentation of Mist to only be usable on Danger Room gates, Item Box gates, Energy Turrets, and derilect Mecha Knights, alongside any possible future CE-interactive Clockwork Dungeon entities.

--Re-pricing of Danger Room gates to 10 ME, Mecha Knights/Energy Turrets to 10ME, and Item Box rooms to 16 ME.

--Introduction of an algorithm that equates the worth of ME to half of the worth of CE, so that when ME runs to 0, Danger Rooms cost 5 CE, Item Box Rooms cost 8 CE, and Mecha Knights/Energy Turrets cost 5 CE. When ME runs below a specified amount (>0), the algorithm will take the remaining ME and calculate the value of CE necessary to complete the transaction.

--Repurposing of Mist Wells in the Guild Hall to convert CE into ME at the aforementioned 1:2 ratio. ME will be taken out through an amount-specification window, but any ME taken cannot exceed the player's own ME cap of 100 when added to said player's tank. Mist wells will require no minimum deposit, and both types of Energy can be deposited. However, any Energy placed into the Well will be irreversably transformed into Mist Energy.

--Addition of a second Well-type Guild Hall item that only outputs CE, and does not allow ME to be inserted. There is no minimum deposit for this Well either.

--Addition of an option to toggle the accessibility of both Well items.

--Addition of an option to craft disposable Mist Tanks as a crown sink. Unlike ME itself, these can be exchanged. A player's own ME reserve takes priority over any Tank he or she might possess, and with emptier Tanks taking priority over fuller ones. Tanks can be emptied into Mist Wells.

--Addition of the ability to cycle gate levels with the usage of ME and CE, akin to the aforementioned Clockworks interaction mechanics. This is not an option for Boss lairs.

--A̶u̶g̶m̶e̶n̶t̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶E̶l̶e̶v̶a̶t̶o̶r̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶i̶v̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶u̶n̶t̶i̶l̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶l̶i̶v̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶a̶r̶t̶y̶ ̶m̶e̶m̶b̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶f̶i̶r̶m̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶w̶i̶s̶h̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶l̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶t̶,̶ ̶r̶a̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶a̶u̶t̶o̶m̶a̶t̶i̶c̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶i̶v̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ REVISED. SEE BELOW.

--Implementation of longer elevator movement times, and a looping "descending" animation at the start of a level that replaces the current loading screen. This animation focuses on the descending elevator with all present party members riding it.

I strongly believe that all of these additions would benefit Spiral Knights as a whole. Constructive criticism is appreciated and welcomed in any capacity.

Fri, 04/29/2016 - 13:06
#1
Umbra-Lunatis's picture
Umbra-Lunatis
Update

It has come to my attention that the "proceed" button for elevators would cause the cancellation of dashing across the elevator as well as premature throwing of any Vials the player might have. (basically a giant red no-fun-allowed sign)

I am therefore suggesting an addition of a mechanic that involves all present players pulling a lever that can only be influenced by the respective Knight it is aligned to in order to advance.

--There are four such Levers present directly beside the Elevator.

--Each Elevator Lever can be toggled between on and off states by its respective Player, and the Elevator will not activate if such conditions are not met.

--Once conditions are met for the Elevator to activate, it will lower the player cart down a rail and function as normal.

Inactive Elevators will still display their screen icons. The only difference between Active and Inactive states is that the Inactive state has an inaccessible hole where the player cart should be.

Fri, 04/29/2016 - 13:41
#2
Fangel's picture
Fangel
eh

I would much rather have mist be identical to how it acted before but be limited to 15 energy a day. Doesn't obsolete anything but makes arcade gates, bribing king krogmo, and purchasing things from the supply depot suddenly a little bit more attractive. It also means the systems we currently have in place are still perfectly reasonable.

It's also pretty simple.

Fri, 04/29/2016 - 14:23
#3
Umbra-Lunatis's picture
Umbra-Lunatis
Simplicity over innovation is a thing of the past.

It's time we started asking things of the developers at a level that they've shown they're willing/able to perform once everything vital is squared away.

I'm looking for the addition of many things in this thread that would expand accessibility to Clockworks mechanisms that are currently obsolete due to money-saving intentions. This prevents the game as a whole from being experienced fully, due to everything centering around currency rather than intertwining spending with the simple joy of the game's experience.

Sat, 04/30/2016 - 03:24
#4
Midnight-Violet's picture
Midnight-Violet
Huh

I'm alright with reintroducing Mist Energy if this is what it was it was re-purposed to. It would definitely help to counter the problem of various micro transactions. Could also mean they could finally expand more upon danger rooms, always been a fan of these rooms for their difficulty and their intricate spawns. Would definitely be nice for these to be a bit more easily accessible than having to shell out CE each time to even attempt these, plus would be a nice encouragement for players looking to do a run with an occasional high risk high reward setup.

The cycle gate levels feature would definitely be a moderately popular feature, especially for new players wanting to avoid level themes such as Compounds or Candlestick Keep. Would be much better rather than having to wait around like 20 minutes just to have the specific level type you want (for my case, arenas) to appear. I imagine this feature will also be disabled in levels that do not have other levels they alternate between or ones with the question marks. (I might be interpreting this suggestion wrong.)

One of my suggestions is to revise the prices around for the knights/turrets and the item box rooms. For the ME costs above, I'd personally prefer 6ME for the knights/turrets (since these can be obtained as a consumable and don't do too much to begin with) and 10ME for the item box rooms (just to be consistent with Danger Room costs).

Also to go along with Fangel's suggestion, would also like for this to be available for bribing King Krogmo. Would get some nice mileage out of use for possibly more rewards or the instant revive feature. I'm personally okay with this system not being usable for items in the Supply Depot, since that's more of a premium store more than anything else.

Sat, 04/30/2016 - 04:37
#5
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I don't understand how this would actually benefit the game. You're basically proposing free danger/box rooms.. but these things cost 3 energy each. That's literally less than a penny and you make it all back and then some, especially in a party of four where it costs 3/4s of one ce per party member to enter into them.

The changing levels thing is fine and has been suggested many times before in various ways. Making it cost energy would be a fine option honestly, as long as it was only like 3 energy.

Sat, 04/30/2016 - 11:15
#6
Umbra-Lunatis's picture
Umbra-Lunatis
To address a few things

@Violet,

As far as elevator cycling, boss levels and question-marked levels would not have a cycling feature, as it would be a waste.
I like the idea of PvP ME bribing, but the amount of ME to pull off a full bribe would have to be WAY up there to compensate. (<100 but >20).

Concerning re-pricing of things, I might change the suggestion to, say, 20ME per danger room, as that's a potential 20 danger rooms with a full party, thereby encouraging team play.

Box rooms could do with a bit of price-balancing, I agree. However, the boxes should be altered to give out items that players actually want in the long-term instead of, say, an orb barrier, cause if I'm paying that much for 2-4 boxes it better be well-worth it.

Continuing with the previous statement, I'm proposing an algorithm that calculates the value of box rooms based on the number of boxes in them. (4ME per box?)

Concerning mechaknight and turret costs, putting it at 6ME (3CE) makes a lot of sense due to their inherent disposability.

@Fehzor

I'm only proposing that players be able to access these danger rooms/etc. so many times before having to use CE again. The aforementioned algorithm for CE/ME would dictate that players would actually end up spending more if they desired to go past the ME limit, kinda like when your Sparks of Life run out. Same concept.

Mon, 05/02/2016 - 20:35
#7
Eranderil's picture
Eranderil
Mist energy- No.

Mist energy (as it used to be) is, never was, and never will be a good idea. I cannot begin to tell you how many of my friends alone mist energy killed this game for. That said I can understand where you are coming from. Implementation in the manner you describe would not really damage the game, assuming I understand correctly that you mean that elevators would remain free.

If that is not what you mean- then no. No. Absolutely not. Non. Nien. However many other ways there are to say "no" in any and every given language past, present and yet to begin.

Energy for crafting- no.
Energy for elevators- no.
Energy for improving gear/ forging- no.
Energy for anything preventing access to the full play-ability of the game- NO.

Treasure rooms? Ok, sure.
Danger rooms? Fine.
Special hidden elevators (or some such) ... ... ... Maybe. Most likely- no. Assuming it does not impede game progress in any way, then fine.

Why? Three rings is already fairly widely regarded as money grubbing for many aspects of this game. Mist energy is largely culpable for this perception and further limited a so called free-to-play game in such a crippling manner that it forced people to quit. A lot. Moving away from Mist energy was one of the single best moves OOO ever made. Moving to the forge and all of that ilk was along a similar mindset and among their worst ideas, right up there with Mist energy.

Setting rant aside. Here is my constructive criticism. For this to work- Do not reward people for being offline. For each hour in game you get so many units of mist energy. More in guild halls. More still near a Mist well. Even more still in the clockwork, increasing incrementally as you go deeper. Spending a half hour at the core should fill you to cap. Elite difficulty? Higher mist payout. This is logical. It follows the story.

Mist should only grant access to side features. Treasure rooms, robots, danger rooms, ect. No need to re-rant. Also- limits. Mist should not be exchanged for ce. Mist should not buy things from the ce shop. To be frank a ce to mist well would be redundant under these conditions. Mist tanks, if they are to be a thing should only be purchasable with ce, or crowns on the auction house, not craft-able. They would be a long term investment.

This would work because it rewards invested players. It rewards time spent in game. It rewards guilds. It is lore adherent. It is generous and encouraging. If I will spend money, it will not be because I need to. But want to.

If all of what I have stated here was intended to go without saying, or was in the general nature of the suggestion, then I would find myself in approval.

Tue, 05/03/2016 - 03:46
#8
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
um, eran

Did you read the OP at all? You look like you saw "mist energy" and then said your entire opinion about it

Tue, 05/03/2016 - 06:56
#9
Umbra-Lunatis's picture
Umbra-Lunatis
@Eran

I specified where and how it would be used a ways back, but I'm not suggesting in any form that elevators be restricted. Further, I only suggested CE/ME conversion as a replacement for depleted Mist

Now, on to what you suggested as far as Mist only being an online reward:
Brilliant. A system that rewards players for actually playing the game would be a tremendous benefit.
However, higher AFK standards would need to be put into place so this couldn't be abused. (sticking a movement key, etc. considered kickable for obvious reasons)

Furthermore, Featured-Auctioning of tanks isn't something I'd thought about, but it would probably work really well for, say, 500 up to 2000 ME per tank. It would have to be a buyout auction though, with a limited amount on sale at once.

However, as to certain areas regenerating Mist faster, it couldn't be by too much , as it creates an environment that's not really friendly to Protos. I'm thinking more along the lines of faster regeneration while in the Clockworks at any level. Maybe a +5% increase in Mist regen per Tier, iunno.
• normal ME regen in Haven/Guild Halls, whilst online/non-disconnected
•+10% ME regen for T1
•+15% ME regen for T2
•+20% ME regen for T3

Furthering my last statement, I'm proposing another addition:
Once a day, reaching the Core from select Arcade locations in one full run grants an immediate refill on Mist (cap 100)
Here's how it would pan out:
•Moorcroft -> Core- Immediate +100 Mist
•T2 rest area -> Core- ME+75
•Emberlight -> Core- ME+50
•T3 rest area -> Core- ME+25
Keep in mind that such rewards are once per day, and do not activate until the player has reached Depth 29. Joining a party to the Core right after one of these four locations means that, as the player has not started from there, they will recieve the next-highest amount bonus. (ex. One floor after Moorcroft -> Core- +75ME)

One more change, for aesthetic purposes:
The closer one gets to the Core, the brighter their Energy bars become, CE and ME alike.
It would work like this:
•Haven/Guildhall- The bar is dark, save for a blue outline and the numbers inside of it. The lines occasionally pulsate from left to right.
•T1- The bar is its normal coloration, but glows as well as pulsates
•T2- Ditto, with a brighter glow, and occasionally emits particles akin to those you'd find out of a Well.
•T3- The bar is noticeably brighter, and constantly pulsates as well as emitting more Well particles.
•Core and potentially below- The bar is a shimmering silver, lined with gold. Animated, translucent white squares appear randomly across it. The gold outline is also the color of the number units.
•Swarm infested areas- (lmao what are you checking your money for? R U N) The bar is grey, outlined with what I presume to be the Lake coloration, covered with opaque, black, jittering squares that disappear and re-appear spontaneously. The Lake outline is also the color of the number units.

Just further ideas on how to implement this stuff in a way that makes sense.

Tue, 05/03/2016 - 08:07
#10
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Yes, but what's wrong with just paying 3 per go? If players are too cheap to do it that's their fault.

Tue, 05/03/2016 - 08:34
#11
Umbra-Lunatis's picture
Umbra-Lunatis
@meg (fehzor...? i lose track of names)

Yes, however with the immense fluctuation in CE pricing lately it seems counter-intuitive to make newer players grind a bunch of levels just to go back and grind danger rooms. Nobody wants monotony, and Mist revival is a great way to help with that.

Tue, 05/03/2016 - 09:21
#12
Petater's picture
Petater
@Umbra-Lunatis

Some reasons this is a bad idea.

1) I reported that the tracking used for mist can be reset, still unpatched. Theoretically someone can spawn infinite mist if they abuse this, and I doubt they'll fix this.

2) I think a login reward that varies by prestige (rads/eternals for ponies, simple orbs for first rank prestige) would be better suited. It would give people a reason to stick around in sk and play prestige missions and be in game for the entirety of an hour.

3) Fix rarity drop paywalling, don't revert the system. You'll just create more salt otherwise. They already created a mound of salt when they made radiant shard crystal drops rare after 3 months of them being 100% chance drops in depth 23 and up.

Tue, 05/03/2016 - 10:01
#13
Umbra-Lunatis's picture
Umbra-Lunatis
@petater

1) That's fair, although this suggestion exists within the assumption that this kind of thing runs flawlessly.

2) Small login rewards for SK would be a good idea, although if it were to replace everything I've suggested so far, the entire thing would be monotonous, which is what I'm trying to avoid. Mist revival in the sense I'm putting it in would require players to work for rewards rather than just being handed things for existing. That's not to say they couldn't exist simultaneously, however.

3) I'm not entirely sure how this relates to the topic, although what you've said makes sense on its own. I'm not suggesting that rarity drops be altered in any way outside of the one instance of gated box rooms having a bit higher chance of containing them (i.e. no chance of containing pickup items, slight rarity percentage increase)

Tue, 05/03/2016 - 13:47
#14
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

You shouldn't be doing danger rooms unless you've earned a good 10K anyway, and even then it's questionable. Once you've bought into them you have a good 33 of them per ~10-11K crowns, which should last you a good month and pay for itself.

If you work with friends and aren't bad at the game you can even stretch that energy out by up to 4 times as much, for a good 132 danger rooms. It's a moot point for most players, because most players are just bad with their finances and don't see that danger rooms pay for themselves, but it's still a valid point as a party of decent players with one knowledgeable could in fact agree to pay for danger rooms in the appropriate fashion rather than the mooching fashion.

Tue, 05/03/2016 - 14:32
#15
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Yeahhh

While I do like all the ideas here, the conversions of everything is just so confusing. As it stands the rarity system is already a mess, so introducing an addition system that isn't familiar would just be another mess to deal with.

A lot of what you're recommending can easily be done by just lowering the mist energy values to not be a total of 100. Things should cost the same amount of energy to open, regardless of what type of energy is being used. if that means we only have like, 20 mist energy, that's fine - it's easier to figure out in your head and makes for much easier overflow calculations.

We were actually discussing mist energy around when you posted this over on the public discord, and my first response was pretty much what we concluded would work without breaking any of the new systems. Let's be honest, how many people are actively playing enough right now to use even 15 mist energy in one sitting? Dedicated farmers will keep farming, and players who already unlock danger rooms will just open them anyways. Difference now is that we might power up mecha knights or auto turrets that require energy now since they're free, and potentially opened up the energy gates in graveyards.

Having a small passive crystal energy sink in the clockworks is good, however having a small amount of recharging energy encourages players to use energy, thus encourages purchasing energy.
Mist shouldn't be the game mechanic you rely on, it should be a side mechanic that you want to spend, but on its own won't be all that much. This means that you still should want and need crystal energy, however mist energy is a nice little buffer.

Tue, 05/03/2016 - 19:58
#16
Eranderil's picture
Eranderil
Sounds good.

OP- Reviewing your response, it looks like you aren't reviving bad money grubbing habits. The idea is thus sound in my opinion. Pretty much already said all I had to say. Thank you for your time.

Edit: If your character dozes off (suggesting afk) the mist energy stops building. Holding a key in a direction for an equal amount of time to what it would take for them to doze = same. That's how I would fix it.

Mon, 05/09/2016 - 08:34
#17
Umbra-Lunatis's picture
Umbra-Lunatis
@Fangel

Reviewing what you've said, I realize that my first reply was more directed towards what I assumed to be a nullification of the entirety of the suggestions in this thread as a whole.
This also negates the 2:1 algorithm, making it, in a way, simpler.

I agree with the augmentation of reducing a Mist cap to 20, along with auctionhouse Mist Tanks to 20-100.
However, the multitude of other additions I've put out there are definitely eligible for consideration, at least to a small degree.

Sun, 05/15/2016 - 09:29
#18
Shadow-Drake
yes, and replace sparks of life with ME and CE when out of ME.

I would love this if you could revive using ME instead of sparks of life and when you're out of ME you use CE to revive. the sparks of life were just a money grab scheme (XD) but under GH it might get a better chance of being changed. I'm fine with elevators being free of charge. if you put in the hours you deserve to progress.

Fri, 05/13/2016 - 14:44
#19
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor
So when we talked about this

So when we talked about this we discussed a lot of potential ideas and I came to the conclusion that something like this could work out if it were to be more of a side thing, and that it would benefit an incredible amount from the removal of the forge system- not because I'm lazy and don't want to heat my gear but because the forge is really the most complicated system that's bogging the game down right now.

1: No more fire crystals or forge
2: Orbs are made more rare to compensate
3: Energy tank is given to players, holds up to say, 50 energy to start with.
4: Energy tank gains 25 mist per day, regardless of log on time
5: Additional energy tanks can be purchased for 250 energy each
6: Energy tanks are never trade-able
7: Buff the prices in the arcade to 10 from three or five.
8: Players get one energy tank upon reaching the rescue camp

So in total you would expect long time players to buy several energy tanks to expand their mist storage. 16 days = 400 energy = 3 4* orbs of alchemy. That's hardly much for a log in bonus.

To store 400 energy you would need to buy 7 mist tanks to hold all of it for a total of 250 ce each. This would cost 7*250 = 1,750 energy.

The benefit to this over the current system is that it's less complicated and rewards play over a number of days, as well as requires players to pay a fee to get it started- the fee of course beng 4x 250 = 1,000 CE per knight. At 1,000 CE you have 250 mist storage and can expand based entirely on mist energy.

Sun, 05/15/2016 - 06:43
#20
Nizada's picture
Nizada
Stuff

The mist energy thing seems like a good idea for a side feature. The side tanks as well, but they should probably shouldn't have a higher potential than 200 ME at most.

Sun, 05/15/2016 - 08:40
#21
Umbra-Lunatis's picture
Umbra-Lunatis
Interesting.

So Mist Tanks would become a permanent upgrade? It sounds plausible.
I'm neither for nor against the Forge, but making orb drops like 1/5 of their probability currently could definitely remove the need for such a system.

What if the Forge were used to add additional levels onto equipment? Like, up to lv.20 with 2*, lv.50 with 5*?
Weapons altered in this manner would get minor stat boosts up to their maximum level.

Sun, 05/15/2016 - 09:05
#22
Nizada's picture
Nizada
More stuff

The forge is usefull for enchanting equipment though. Or adding unique wariants as it's called. ^^

Sun, 05/15/2016 - 09:37
#23
Shadow-Drake
absolutely not @Umbra-Lunatis

elite orbs of alchemy are (as I heard from someone who farmed them) usually have a 1 in 4 drop chance while playing on elite in JK. can you IMAGINE how hard it would be to find just one if you made the drop chance 1/5th of their drops. I'm already stuck in tier three as it is because I CAN'T FIND ANY ELITE ORBS OF ALCHEMY. if they made it harder to find them I would quite the game.
the original idea was fine though.

Sun, 05/15/2016 - 18:27
#24
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

The problem with the forge isn't that it's economically unsound, at least early on when you're first building loadouts. At that point you have a rather interesting balance due to the fact that your 3* gear doesn't need heat but that heat benefits it. So maybe you can upgrade one item but still have tons of 3* fire crystals, you just put those onto your other 3* gear instead and all is well.

The problem is that it's a rather complicated system that doesn't accomplish anything game-wise. In the long run orbs are less common prior to radiant fire crystals, and your knight won't worry about fire crystals. What the forge does mean is that crafting gear goes like so-

Step 1: Find the recipe for the weapon
Step 2: Find the supplies for the weapon
2a.) Materials
2b.) Orbs of alchemy
2c.) Crowns
Step 3: Craft the weapon
Step 4: Use the weapon, collecting heat to level it up
Step 5: Use fire crystals on the weapon, gambling to level it up
Step 6: Craft the next tier of the weapon and repeat the process

Now this is intuitive to us because we play Spiral Knights and have for a long time, but new comers are used to seeing something more like this-

Step 1: Find the materials
1a.) Materials. There are just materials.
Step 2: Craft the weapon, you're done!

So my concern with any kind of energy or forge innovation is that it's hard to understand compared to what players are likely to expect... especially Spiral Knights players, which are overwhelmingly casual compared to other MMO players. So if we're going back to mist (and I doubt we would) I'd like to simplify the above crafting (the one we use) back down a bit.

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