Spiral Knights - Can we talk about the 5* Fire Crystal Adjustment?

Can we talk about the 5* Fire Crystal Adjustment?

61 replies [Last post]

Thu, 06/02/2016 - 19:30

Paintool

It's been talked about for YEARS... but we Grey Havens now.

Spiral Knight vets who've played since the 2013 update know how things have gone.
We had 5* crystals more than we needed, but that was okay because downcrafting.
THEN THERE WAS NOTHING... FOR LIKE A YEAR?*
Then Rads were adjusted again, sorta (depth 25 and below maybe, good luck getting 400+ for all your gear)

This has been an easy fix issue for literally years.
This isn't about reaching end game faster; this is about using all your gear to it's max potential

No more halfway heated shields, no more halfway heated armors.
No more prioritizing the uber gear over fashion statements.

It could be just as easy as removing 4* crystals from Stratum 6 so 5* ones take their place.

It's 2016 people. It's time for a change.

Thu, 06/02/2016 - 20:22

Bopp

time line

The worst part of the Radiant drought lasted a few months. The time line was:

* 2013-07-30: Fire crystals were added to the game.

* 2013-10?: Radiant drought begins. (September? October? November?)

* 2014-02-26: Radiant drop rates were buffed, although not up to pre-drought levels.

* 2015-05-13: Dreams and Nightmares was added to the game.

As for the reasons why Radiants are so constricted, I find it more interesting to think about why Three Rings would have designed it that way.

By the way, one of the current Arcade gates has a lot of deep arenas. I got 48 Radiants there the other day, without spending any energy on danger rooms or other energy gates.

Thu, 06/02/2016 - 21:12

Batabii

48 radiants means very little when most gear needs 300 or more on average to max out

Thu, 06/02/2016 - 21:31

Corporal-Shade

I'm a Wizard

Hey, it adds up. After about two hundred more arenas you'll have your mega ultra mostly-good mixmaster!

Thu, 06/02/2016 - 21:33

Dats-Mah-Boi

Oh boy, 48 crystals in one

Oh boy, 48 crystals in one gate?!!? What a joke.

I think change will come in due time. The Grey Havens say they try to keep games alive, which means that they will change Radiants, because it is one of the most complained about aspects that is killing the game. If the game will survive, then dynamic challenges will be implemented that match any level of experience.

The change doesn't seem difficult code-wise, not sure what's holding them back. Ah well, problems for you people who still play. Nice to see progress on the forums though

Fri, 06/03/2016 - 00:20

Veridiandynamics

I have over 21k rads

I have over 21k rads at the moment ;3
Started to play in 2014 january.

Fri, 06/03/2016 - 03:04

Delecated

@Lethal-Bunduru

Oh boy, 48 crystals in one gate?!!? What a joke.

That's no joke, bratan. That's more than twice of what I usually get in a casual Elite Tier 3 Arcade run.

Fri, 06/03/2016 - 03:56

The-Worst-Knight

I have suggestion about it,

I have suggestion about it, what do you think?
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/114701

Fri, 06/03/2016 - 04:41

Bopp

48 Radiants

48 radiants means very little when most gear needs 300 or more on average to max out

Sadly, an item needs 420 Radiants to complete, on average.

Oh boy, 48 crystals in one gate?!!? What a joke.

I'm not defending the current policy. I'm just trying to help you find more Radiants than you've been finding recently. While also giving you a slightly more interesting place to grind.

That's no joke, bratan. That's more than twice of what I usually get in a casual Elite Tier 3 Arcade run.

Exactly.

Fri, 06/03/2016 - 06:42

Batabii

The wiki says 302 radiants if you use the medium number of radiants per level. That's not counting double level ups or failures.

Fri, 06/03/2016 - 09:18

#10

Bopp

right

The wiki says 302 radiants if you use the medium number of radiants per level. That's not counting double level ups or failures.

Right. But if you count the failures, then it's 420 on average. This figure doesn't account for the double-ups, so thanks for pointing that out. But we don't understand those chances well yet, especially on medium forging chances, so I usually ignore them. Cheers.

Fri, 06/03/2016 - 11:34

#11

Fangel

gah

I have over 21k rads at the moment ;3
Started to play in 2014 january.

At its worst, you would have current D26 chances of radiants at D28. A good run would net you 9 radiants. Before this change, people were getting 60 radiants per FSC run for a good run, and 39-45 on a meh one.

But uh, exclusively farming one boss with one set of gear for years will net you a lot of the items people are complaining about. Not a thing I like to do but if I exclusively farmed Dreams and Nightmares and never made more 5* gear you can bet I'd have a huge stockpile by now.

Farming up over 450 radiants in a few days for one item is rather exhausting.

But at the rest of the thread, I understand why they made the change, just don't really like how they did that after giving us the solution of "need 4* fire crystals? turn your 5* ones into 4* ones!" that we asked for. Wasn't like shinings were hard to get, they just made vanguards have to dig into their wallets for farming FSC all the time whenever they wanted to make 4* gear, which is the price to pay for not expanding your options.

Fri, 06/03/2016 - 15:24

#12

Batabii

regardless, my point all along was that 48 rads is a very trifling amount in the long run. Better than 15, but still. I would venture to say that it's not even worth upgrading to 5* at this point.

Fri, 06/03/2016 - 19:25

#13

Fehzor

The radiants aren't that bad any more. It's only about 4 hours of farming and the rest of the pieces to the gear puzzle are far easier to attain, making it about the same as it's always been for players with already heated, 5* gear that can find other players with already 5* gear.

The real issue is how difficult the lack of radiant fire crystals makes it to 'get good' when all of your gear is garbage because you can't heat it. Farming takes twice as long for those newer to the game than say, Fangel or I to get a good foothold in, and that's with help AND if they can do it AND if they figure out to farm Dreams and Nightamres, all of which are highly unlikely. This tends to bottleneck a lot of players that just want to casually enjoy the game, and aren't looking for the grind of a lifetime.

Sauron I mean SEGA likely had a VERY heavy hand in the so called radiant drought, and without the influence of the One I mean SEGA it isn't out of the question for the game to return to a more playable state. Perhaps we could draft a plan for where all rarities drop via google docs and submit it to the developers? I'm under the impression that they can make that simple change without even touching the code for the servers, which they may or may not be able to do at the moment.

Sat, 06/04/2016 - 09:50

#14

Fangel

oh right

Also a reminder that radiants helped make a crown sink while active because people would turn radiants into shinings. Now we have to farm for radiants, and the most common place to farm for radiants also generates a lot of crowns, meaning as it stands radiants are a crown inflater. Kill two birds with one stone making radiants the dominant crystal again.

Sat, 06/04/2016 - 11:00

#15

Neueragon

another problem with radiants is you can only find them at very low depths. I dont always have enough time to do almost a full T3 arcade run and farming the same few mission levels again and again is extremely dull. before forge, you could farm both cr for CE and heat literally anywhere. its understandable that this is no longer the case, but having them restricted to three depths only (not counting special locations) is terrible.

Sat, 06/04/2016 - 12:09

#16

Bopp

idea

Players used to sell party slots to depth 23, so that other players could shop at Basil. The anti-looping rules and the Hall of Heroes killed this practice, which is too bad, because it was an interesting quirk of the community.

So my idea is to sell party slots to depth 25, so that other players can reach Radiants. The anti-looping rules are still a hindrance. What are they, exactly? When you go solo, you can't invite anyone until the next level? So get together a bunch of players and alts, and build up a bunch of one-knight parties at depth 25, and sell invitations there.

I'm not an expert on this stuff, so let me know if it won't work.

Sat, 06/04/2016 - 12:56

#17

Neueragon

when n is equal to the level height above D25 (D24 would be n=1 for example), you could have 4^n open parties at D25. the only problem would be filling the three party slots before someone decides to go solo for a quicker run.
but D25 is a little high, D26 is where rads drop more than once in a blue moon. D27 if you want more than half/half.

Sat, 06/04/2016 - 13:19

#18

Bopp

let me see if I have this right

Yeah, depth 25 was just an example, because it's the shallowest depth worth thinking about. I agree that most players would want to jump to 26 or even 27.

So I could take one knight from depth 18 to depth 25, invite three of my alts, have them all go solo, descend to depth 26, and sell 12 invitations. I'm not sure what they're worth --- that's for the market to decide --- but 1,000 crowns seems like a low estimate to me. So I'm making an extra 12,000 crowns per run? That's not shabby.

For example, savvy players might join at 26, go solo, and sell their own slots at 27.

Sat, 06/04/2016 - 13:33

#19

Neueragon

you dont even have to start at 18. using the party finder, it should be easy to find a party a couple levels deeper.
also, if the following levels are particularly good (arena treasure vault, clockwork tunnels, no compounds or decon zones) you could probably charge a good bit more than 1k. on a low arena, you can earn significantly more than you would pay.
personally, I wouldnt mind buying some slots there. I like the arcade, but hate not getting radiants.

Sat, 06/04/2016 - 13:49

#20

Batabii

Whenever I use party finder and it's not during a major event, I either get nothing at all, boss runs galore, or a bunch of noobs playing easymode tier 1.

Sun, 06/05/2016 - 03:33

#21

Enclave-Xz

Its bad, its very bad

The stupid crystal system is the only reason I'm probably not gonna get back into this game for real.

Sun, 06/05/2016 - 10:18

#22

Batabii

The crystal system isn't stupid, the radiant system is.

Thu, 06/09/2016 - 01:46

#23

Enclave-Xz

Tell that to the 6 four star items i have to level up to level 10.

Thu, 06/09/2016 - 04:10

#24

Vohtarak-Forum

sure, ill tell you about 4*s

Heating 4* items is completely balanced, if not maybe even too easy, as those drop in all of t3 (and its not hard t o find arcade gates with good s5s) and some of t2, if you have an issue with non-radiant crystals then you need to actually go into the clockworks and play the game

Thu, 06/09/2016 - 07:38

#25

Neueragon

and what are you gonna do once you heated those 4* items? leave them at 4*? then you might as well do the heating slowly. upgrade them to 5*? well then you will need a boatload of radiants to make upgrading worthwhile. so you might as well farm radiants and use the shinings you get along the way. for that, DaN is not the best, so just go farm FSC.
if you do have over 3k radiants lying around, you can also just turn those into shinings.

Thu, 06/09/2016 - 09:43

#26

Triplescrew

I think that depth 25+ should

I think that depth 25+ should drop ONLY 5* crystals.

Droprates should also get buffed slightly... Because its just frustrating getting 40 crystals for 1,5 hrs FSC run.

Just imagine how long one person should farm FSC to get all pieces of 5* gear to lvl 10? Hell....Anyone will simply burn out.

Thu, 06/09/2016 - 09:45

#27

Dats-Mah-Boi

^Nearly everyone was burned

^Nearly everyone was burned out, thats why they all left. Only the desparate have stayed

Fri, 06/10/2016 - 02:24

#28

Xtweeterx

Well I just got off a FSC

Well I just got off a FSC yesterday on elite mode. Got around 20 or so rads. Though, all I knew is that they were common down there, so I wasn't paying attention to how much I got. I'll remember this time when I go again later today.

EDIT: Well it was cut short. No radiants because one: I left mid-run to join a friend in TF2 shortly before he realized he had to go for the night and the second time I lagged out so hard, I died twice and couldn't be bothered to restart. I'll get back to it tomorrow (or later today, to be exact)

Thu, 06/09/2016 - 12:01

#29

Neueragon

if you want drop rates, just check the lancer knightz data. if I recall correctly, FSC drops about 18 on average, while DaN is 21.75.
DaN is also shorter, so you get them faster there.

Thu, 06/09/2016 - 14:22

#30

Batabii

Seriously 4* fire crystals are so easy to get, why are you having problems?

Fri, 06/10/2016 - 00:23

#31

Veridiandynamics

Seriously 5* fire crystals

Seriously 5* fire crystals are so easy to get, why are you having problems?

Fri, 06/10/2016 - 00:48

#32

Strayed-Faris

This is great.

So, let's sum up all what we learned in this post:

The fire crystals are perfectly fine. So stop complainin' and get good everyone.

Fri, 06/10/2016 - 02:21

#33

Neueragon

radiants are NOT easy to get. you can only find them at depth 25 and lower, with reasonable drop rates only at 27 and lower.
because of how long it takes to get down there in the arcade, it is practically useless for farming radiants. the only missions that let you farm them are FSC and DaN, which greatly limits what vanguards can do. they can either grind FSC all the time and contribute to crown inflation while getting bored out of their minds, or grind DaN with little gain outside of radiants.
both get boring after a couple hundred times.
or, if they are crazy, they could spend a couple hundred real-life dollars on radiants. they are so overpriced, if you could sell rads at supply depot prices, you could literally make DaN grinding your real-life job.

Fri, 06/10/2016 - 07:38

#34

Paintool

The system itself might be

The system itself might be fine.
Should there even be a reason for forge failures? This serves what purpose exactly?

The issue is the 5* crystals are the bottleneck of endgame players.
You play the game, and probably spend a ton of time just heating your first 5* equipment.
But instead of making more 5* stuff, we come to a point where the amount of work doesn't equal the benefit to keep playing.

You can tell me all you want that 5* rarity is fine, just keep farming.
But until you start counting the hours, FSC + DaN runs, you'll start to see this endgame was designed to force players to spend as little time being satisfied as possible. Let me remind this all happened under SEGA's demands; compare this to any other freemium type game where profit is made at your expense.

BUT that's not how this game started out, and although constant level up is gone, at least people were free to heat whatever they want, WHEREVER they want without having to worry about crystals.

Fri, 06/10/2016 - 09:29

#35

Strayed-Faris

Err...

Um... is this directed to me or Veridiandynamics...?

In case it's me, my post is a sarcastic reply to the two posts above it. I'm sorry if my sarcasm sucks.

"Should there even be a reason for forge failures? This serves what purpose exactly?"
~~Paintool

3 years ago in SEGA/OOO's meeting room...

SEGA: "Hey! Let's add RNG to the heating system, I bet it will make reaching endgame more challenging!"

OOO: "What if it pisses off all the players?"

SEGA: "Nah. What's the worst they can do?"

OOO: "Oh, you're right. Let's do it."

I couldn't stop myself ._.

This is exactly why I believe the crystal system is broken no matter how 'balanced' it seems. The concept of RNG + Leveling is simply wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me and there is no reason for it to exist to begin with.

Also, 5* crystals isn't just a problem for endgame players, our beautiful new recruits suffer just as much as we do.

Fri, 06/10/2016 - 11:58

#36

Batabii

Veridiandynamics was trying to make a joke, but it failed miserably due to logic.

Fri, 06/10/2016 - 12:19

#37

Veridiandynamics

Nah i was serious.

Fri, 06/10/2016 - 13:12

#38

Batabii

How is that serious? Radiants only appear in depths 25 and deeper, which is usually 4 depths. Shinings are in the entirety of tier 3, which is 11 depths

How can you say 4 is as much as 11?

Fri, 06/10/2016 - 16:06

#39

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

Post 34 sums it up perfectly. The mmo fatigue is real and should be avoided at all costs- gear exploration is vital for the end game.

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 21:38

#40

Batabii

Maybe stuff like the prize boxes and level skips should be a reward for taking the risk of 33% fire crystals instead?

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 03:48

#41

Flash-Flire

A suggestion or something

How about this for a fix to the system?

Just make the crystals drop per stratum.

S1=cracked, S2=dim, S3=warm etc.

Basically, wherever you are in the game, you are at the right stage to be heating all your stuff. Like how wherever you are in the game, the orbs you find are the right kind to advance you further.

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 13:43

#42

Fangel

huh

I accidentally hit backspace and went back in my browser and deleted several paragraphs I had written. fml

Short version of what I wrote: I made a new knight a while back, and in its current state the 4* fire crystal grind is actually in the best possible spot it can be in. It's just that the 5* grind is much longer, and when you hunt for radiants you get shinings.

As such, we need more ways to straight up farm radiants. More end-game content that skips us to later depths faster. Having us start at D26 and going to D28 or D29 would be perfect. Additionally, content inside of the core where purely radiants drop would be good as well. The key here is variation however, as making things bland and plain will make it boring to farm radiants.

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 13:49

#43

Lynx-Xx

Tier 4 Clockworks Arcade

To solve this problem there should be a Tier 4 in Clockworks. Shadow Lairs are kinda like Tier 4, but are boss lvls. All you get is Radiants there.

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 14:17

#44

Fangel

oh dear

Tier 4 clockworks would cause more problems than solve things. Having us able to dive into ??? depths in the core, ie, depth 30 and beyond, would be nice as long as they are naturally difficult. Could be standard levels mixed with swarm encounters.

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 22:09

#45

Batabii

The game isn't balanced around 4 tiers, and it would cause massive upsets throughout the entire game structure.

The better idea is to simply make radiants appear in more depths and shinings appear in less. Plus perhaps drop down the radiant forging requirements by, oh, 10%

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 22:59

#46

Corporal-Shade

I'm a Wizard

What's with people asking for a 4th Tier?
It's gonna be full of menders with an AoE revive and they can summon extra gremlins.
And then Devilites that take an entire 10 seconds to despawn.
And Polyps that shoot projectiles in 16 directions.
And Gun Puppies that go Gatling gun on you and can rotate 160° in one second.
And a shadow lair battlepod that has a attack speed of 16x and attack 16 times as much until it reveals it's weak spot for just 5 seconds.

Oh wait T4 is in the core?
The Void gel still has that 16 directional ranged attack.

Sat, 06/18/2016 - 02:21

#47

Neueragon

another issue concerning

another issue concerning radiants is that their supply depot price is insane. radiants cost 15-20 dollars per full 5* item heating. even if you buy the biggest energy package, it still costs 14 dollars to heat an item. a lot of people have over a dozen items to heat, they would have to spend far too much.
but lets put that a little into perspective. yes numbers are a little off, they are just to illustrate.
instead of heating ten items, you could get a mixmaster.
instead of heating five items, you could get a BK set.
instead of heating one item, you could change your name twice.
instead of heating one item, you could get 8 months worth of slot upgrades.
instead of heating one item, you could make three or buy two.
instead of heating one item, you could get someone a whole 4* set.
instead of heating one item, you could pay guild upkeep for months.
instead of heating one item, you could roll UVs on it over thirty times.
most paying players would do these things rather than buy radiants, because buying radiants doesnt make sense in a perspective of experienced value. if they were massively cheaper (maybe by a factor of ten), buying them would feel less like a loss.

Fri, 06/17/2016 - 13:37

#48

Rhons

Totally Agreed

With Neueragon. Heating a five-star item is simply insane, regardless on how many crystals you need. Just a purchase of 50 (not a multiple of three, mind you; it would be like 48 for me) will cost around 80-88k crowns in-game.

Perhaps with regular delving and getting hypothetical gains of, say, 12 Crystals per run and 5,000 crowns per run (assuming you rush Stratum Five)... you should already get the idea of the benefits. +20k crowns or -80k crowns (applies to free players). 800 Energy to save time? From a good range of activity from players, most would amass 48 Radiants within a week.

Fri, 06/17/2016 - 13:52

#49

Veridiandynamics

Now-now...

Depot price is kind of irrelevant here, mates.

For example, in depot the Knight Name Change Pass is 3500 Energy.
No one will ever buy that thing.
Instead you buy them off another player for something like 500-600 Energy.

Radiant is kind of the same. You dont buy it. You farm it.

Fri, 06/17/2016 - 14:03

#50

Rhons

@Veridiandynamics

I believe we have the liberty to discuss anything about Fire Crystals on this thread, given its potential range of topics over it is pretty broad. Any discussion of Depot Price of "5* Fire Crystals" shouldn't be dissuaded, should it?

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Can we talk about the 5* Fire Crystal Adjustment?