Spiral Knights - Shadow lair weapons (with actual weapon ideas)

Shadow lair weapons (with actual weapon ideas)

29 replies [Last post]

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 08:47

Dagunner

As has been suggested, and agreed to by many, I think that weapons should be added to the shadow lair gear, this would give more reason for people to do shadow lairs, which are fun, it would also just be cool. The weapons would be upgraded from 4*s, like the SL armour pieces.

Here are the icons for the suggested weapons: http://imgur.com/gl2DcAp

For the rabid snarbolax twins:

The weapons could be poison variants of the Barbarous thorn blade and the Dark briar barrage, they would do slightly less damage but have a chance of poison, fairly straight forward. perhaps the sword could be called the Bubonic thorn blade?

There could be a snarbolax gun called "The Thorn" which is of the magnus line, Here is an image for the icon: http://imgur.com/T7E3q5W

The thorn does considerably less damage than the Callahan and the Iron slug, but in turn it has a high chance of dealing weak poison to enemies, and has a very high damage boost against poisoned enemies. As a result, the thorn would initially be weaker than the other magnus lines, but if shots could be chained in succession it could do more damage. The Thorn would shoot a snarbolax spike, like the snarbolax does, the charge would be like the other magnus charges in that it shoots a powerful bullet that pierces enemies, except it poisons enemies instead of stuns.

For the Ice queen: (second row for icons)

The weapons could be the blast jelly bomb, and the ice jelly bomb, these would be upgraded from the Radiant sun shards. The jelly bombs would be similar to the shard bombs in that they have an initial small bomb which explode and make smaller cluster bombs, but the jelly bombs would drop more bombs which are smaller and spread out randomly, like a super blast jelly. The mini jelly bombs would explode at different times, some being earlier and some longer, One of the main differences from the shards bombs would be that the cluster bombs are created at the centre of the bomb and move outwards until they hit a wall or enemy. Statwise they'd be pretty similar to the scintillating sunshards, in that they deal piercing damage, however the ice jelly bomb as you would've guessed has a small chance of causing minor freeze, in exchange for some of its damage. The jelly bombs are capable of doing more damage than a shard bomb if placed well due to having more explosives, but is more unreliable as its semi random so some enemies will be damaged more, while others are damaged less.

For the red roarmulous twins: (third row for icons)

The weapons could be reskinned versions of the mixmaster/celstial oribtal gun, they would be upgraded from pulsars of the corresponding element. Perhaps ones for the other two pulsars could be made aswell. I'm not sure what to name them, so if anyone has suggestions I'll put them up here.

For Shadow-fire Vanaduke: (fourth row for icons)

The first weapon could be a 5* winmillion, perhaps it could visually have the divine theme to fit the almiran crusader theme or just simply a shadow theme. The second idea would be a shadow-fire fang of vog, it would be quite similar to the original fang of vog in that it can set things on fire and is like a leviathan blade, except it does shadow damage and its charge would have an additional chance to curse, the charge would deal slightly less damage than the fang of vog's. for this to be viable both it and the fang of vog would need to be buffed in that the chance of self-inflicted fire should be removed (perhaps replaced with reduced movement speed for a few seconds?). A possible name could be shadow of vog, I'm not so sure about names so if you have one please do suggest it.

So comment to say what you think of these ideas, if you have any others, do share.

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 09:43

Rhons

Before Fangel Gets the Jump:

A Poison variant of the Barbarous Thorn Blade would probably be unpopular stat-wise, given on what we have with the Flamberge and Rigadoon Flourishes. Sure, different charge and Poison may be more useful than Fire/Stun, but if anything the Developers may make it match Flamberge/Rigadoon, both with pitiful damage and status chance.
I love my Dark Briar Barrage solely for its strong damage. I don't know how well Poison may help; it should have a good chance of inflicting Moderate Poison or higher. Otherwise I would be put off by its lowered damage.

Furthermore, we already have a Poison Pierce Autogun: The Plague Needle (Coliseum Recipe)
Jelly Blast Bomb. I actually like the idea of such a Bomb working similar to the mechanics of a Blast Cube. I just want to disagree with it dealing Piercing damage, if we are completely going to mimic its workings. A little ball that simply explodes dealing Piercing damage just does not sit right with me. The Ice variant seems counterproductive and here's why:
The mini jelly bombs would explode at different times, some being earlier and some longer.

If one little bomb causes Freeze, the others would most likely break it. It would not compensate for the lower damage output and its theme to the Ice Queen.

I still like the idea of a Blast Cube Bomb.
A big no-no. Mixmasters and Orbitguns were definitely created for those who were willing to pay up for their unique attacks. Suddenly making them potentially available for every knight ruins a few things:
Those who paid so much money for an exclusive item that suddenly becomes available to all will stir up anger for they basically spent more than those who 'waited out' for the Mixmasters/Orbitguns.

We will virtually destroy all potential in most other Handguns. If you have not seen how Mixmasters/Orbitguns operate, you should know each little 'frisbee' deals the equivalent damage of a Nova Driver. Given each shot launches two frisbees and it is a three-clip Handgun, it's DPS would easily dwarf Alchemers, Arcana, and Polaris. I'm sorry for being blunt, but this would basically ruin Gunslinging (No one in Lockdown would want me spamming these demons. Well, no one in Lockdown would be safe from each other.)

Perhaps instead we could play with Catalyzers... I have an idea...
Fangel would probably give you nasty looks for the Shadow Winmillion. That, or he'll praise you and call you a brother/sister/fellow Apache Combat Helicopter.
The Shadow of Vog is greatly overpowered, having the ability to deal two Statuses, with one being CURSE. Perhaps have it just deal Shadow Damage like the Phantom's blade, with a low chance to deal Minor Curse on its charge only. Even then, it would probably act like a status Acheron with different charge. I vote no for this.

So, my opinions on your current ideas. I have my own ideas, but then I'll be spamming my own agenda. They're in another thread separate.

You have some good ideas, Dagunner!

[Edit:] Teach me how to photoshop game icons like you did on your Imgur link! <3

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 10:50

Dagunner

I see what you mean, so here's some more stuff

Ok, I see what you mean with the poison snarble weapons, although I didn't suggest a new autogun (I said we have enough already), I figured that these be intresting as they fit the theme, perhaps something else would be better since the poisonous BTB would be rather under used, however the poisonous DBB would be a viable option, like use said it would have to have strong poisoning, however, since poison negates healing effects this can make it very useful, as often healers can be hidden behind large groups of enemies, being able to negate their healing opens up a window to thin out a large horde, This would make up for the lowered damage.

So perhaps the blast jelly bombs should deal shadow, I was suggesting pierce because that's what jellies do, but making it counter jelly with shadow works too. Also I guess for balance, the ice jelly bombs mini explosions should keep a unit frozen as otherwise it be very under powered, especially since its not a guaranteed freeze like shivermist (its significantly smaller too I might add). Alternatively, the initial blast for the ice jelly bomb could freeze, keeping frozen enemies within the range of its mini bombs, and this could make the ice jelly bomb a VERY interesting weapon.

Ok, I see what you mean with the mix masters, I haven't really seen them in action so I don't know much about them, but perhaps they could be weaker versions of them then? because the idea of a returning bullet does seem pretty cool. (plasma boomerangs :D)

Also, for the shadow of vog, I mightn't of made it clear (or just flat out forgot to mention it), it has a very low chance of cursing, and only on the charge (much lower than GF) and the fire wouldn't be as strong as the Fang of vog's. And perhaps it should deal pure shadow damage, making it great for killing gremlins and jellies, but weak to everything else (kinda like a rocket hammer).

On a side note, The Fang of Vog should be buffed though, it's never used which is a shame.

And the icons were mostly just made from other icons, and as to the photoshopping, just practice I guess XD

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 11:06

Rhons

Responding

Since you clarified that the Poison Dark Briar Barrage could deal Strong Poison, then I have better support for it. Give it a nice chance to do so, though. The Barbarous Thorn Blade already fits the image for the Snarbolax Gear quite well all ready. I would see no need to make a weaker version similar to Flamberge/Rigadoon. Will not support the new Flourish.
Shadow...? Just... Can't it deal Normal Damage? We also have no reason for the Freeze still: Shivermist keeps targets Frozen due to zero damage to avoid breaking Freeze.
You have no idea, it seems, on how this Handgun works. Shoots six projectiles on full clip, compared to Alchemers x2 and Pulsars x3. It already deals Nova Driver damage, so it would require a significant nerf: tone it down to a third of its damage. By then, it'll be a weak weapon.
Additionally, the Pulsar Handgun looks nothing like the Mixmaster/Orbitgun.
You suggested it have weaker status, but since it has two, its damage would be significantly weaker. Having it pure Shadow may be a way to limit its strength, but with each hit having a chance to inflict Fire (or even more overpowered, Curse), it doesn't seem balanced.

That's all, folks.

...

Oh, and could I ask you to photoshop things for me? <3

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 11:25

Dagunner

1. Fair enough with the poison BTB, If I think of something better I'll put that up instead.

2. I think the idea of having the initial blast freeze so that the cluster bombs hit would be a really nice feature. Also, normal would be good too, really I just want a blast jelly bomb, coz that would be cool XD don't care too much for the actual element ~ I'd use it regardless of what it was

3. Also perhaps the nerfed version would have a clip of two and not shoot a double 'frisbee'? But then the clip could have a small explosion like a pulsar?

Also tell me that catalyzer idea... I'm intrested

4. The curse would only be on the charge, the fire would be on regular hits + charge. Also there would be the slowness after the charge to balance it, perhaps the slow effect could last a little longer on this too.

Also what do you want photoshopped? if its something easy enough I may do it

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 12:04

Rhons

Vigilant, Are You Not?

We have seem to reached a conclusion on Snarby. Sure, no Sword. However, perhaps Rabid Briar Barrage? Simple name.
Normal Damage Blast Cube Bomb would just be acceptable, as you have shown agreement there. We agreed.
I guess we just cannot reach compromise (given we're 'Yes' vs. 'No'). I know the Gun sounds amazing and all, and I would vendor all of my 54 Handguns for just two of them. However, they're exclusive and if we have missed out on an expensive way to acquire them, so be it. Life's not fair. People who have them are happy, and we as the commoners should be content with what we have. Even with the significant nerf you mentioned would still have problems. The projectiles fly rather quickly, and if it returns and hits a target, it'll come flying towards you. Plus, still very powerful. I assume you are a Gunslinger, given your name. You should have an idea of what happens if you wield two of those at once and swapped between them (or even Single-Switch one).
You suggested a very good idea of making the Blade much more balanced. I suggest Minor Fire and a chance to receive either Fire and/or Curse (Minor).

Here's a link to my thread. Shameful advertising now, but perhaps you could make a 4* Catalyzer Yellow and another Magenta? Would be much appreciated!

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 11:46

Dagunner

XD link doesn't work

I can't follow the link, could you post the URL, and sure, I'll make a yellow mangeta catalyzer

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 12:07

Rhons

Stupid Outdated Forums

Instead of:

href="..."

I typed:

ref="..."

Update forums please Grey Havens.

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 12:09

Dagunner

Different snarble weapon

Instead of the poison snarble barb, how about another bomb which acts like the original shard bombs. i.e. they shoot projectiles out in a ring. Also, if the mixmasters are too over powered for a SL weapon, I guess we need to think of another.

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 17:18

Neueragon

I disagree with Rhons.

there definitely should be "normally" obtainable non-promo versions of promo gear. I dont care if orbitguns get nerfed and everyone who bought one cries themselves to sleep, it wasnt fair in the first place to lock a whole new mechanic behind a MASSIVE paywall (nowadays, a mixmaster can set you back 150$, which is just ridiculous) and that should be fixed as soon as possible.

for the gear itself, poison variants are meh, but fit. poison DBB might be interesting, a different way to spread poison other than VV. obsidian gear is already neat in that way and I love my crusher to death, so who knows how well it would work.
IQ bombs, I dont know.
RRT gear: add a fire EV reskin, so F2Pers can get that too.
FSC: winmillion upgrades have been discussed to death. your FoV? doesnt sound good to me.
what I would do as well is take other non-reskin promo items (the shields mainly) and allow reskins of those to be crafted in SLs too.

to add a little to the suggestion, why not come up with at least one weapon for each weapon type per shadow lair? the only rules should be that it either deals no status or status you find in the SL, while having a damage type of the damage types found in SLs.
for example, a shadow DBB without status would be a possibility. or a normal damage sealed sword line. or a WRH with fire? there are so many possibilities.

Sun, 06/12/2016 - 20:10

#10

Dagunner

@Neuragon

a fire EV would be good, it would fit the fire theme of the RRT. Also, I guess there's a reason the winmillion upgrades are discussed to death, its a fun sword, and while it may be good, its also really hard to get. Personally I think a pure shadow FoV be interesting, however both it and the original FoV would NEED to be buffed otherwise it would be sucky, like you think it would be. As for the orbit gun/mix master, it would be cool to have them, but if adding them would remove balance for gunners, it be best not, if it is balanced, then great add it.

Having atleast one weapon of each type would be cool, if you have suggestions for any I'll add them up. Shield would be cool too, but the event shields aren't really that special aren't they? although having a bombing shield from RT would be cool. Or a Move speed increase shield from shadow fire vanaduke.

also I got another idea for a vanaduke sword, His sceptre. I know its been suggested, but it would be interesting, It could be a normal heavy weapon (I'd make it shadow but there's no point when there's GF). The charge would be like the rocket hammer, and needless to say, the Scepter would have a chance of fire.

Mon, 06/13/2016 - 03:51

#11

Vohtarak-Forum

again, reskins

The equinoxes boxes have a fire vortex already

Mon, 06/13/2016 - 05:38

#12

Dagunner

@Vohtarak-Forum

I'm aware, but having a weapon that isn't terribly OP stuck behind a pay wall kinda sucks, so atleast making it available via shadow lair (which is still kinda a pay wall).

Mon, 06/13/2016 - 06:26

#13

Dagunner

Thought of a snarbolax gun

I added the snarbolax gun called "The Thorn" to the post. I'll also put it here:

There could be a snarbolax gun called "The Thorn" which is of the magnus line, Here is an image for the icon: http://imgur.com/T7E3q5W

The thorn does considerably less damage than the Callahan and the Iron slug, but in turn it has a high chance of dealing weak poison to enemies, and had a very high damage boost against poisoned enemies. As a result, the thorn would initially be weaker than the other magnus guns, but if shots could be chained in succession it could do more damage. The Thorn would shoot a snarbolax spike, like the snarbolax does, the charge would be like the other magnus charges in that it shoots a powerful bullet that pierces enemies, except it poisons enemies instead of stuns.

Mon, 06/13/2016 - 12:49

#14

Neueragon

damage bonus against poisoned enemies would be a little too far outside of what we currently have.
anyways, let me add some weapon ideas. names are probably terrible.
RS:

sword: ultimate beast crusher. troika upgrade, has the same main attack, but deals piercing. charge attack launches spikes, similar to snarby burrow arrack. make it look a little like this? http://torchlight.wikia.com/wiki/Valgang_Toothpick
gun: I dont know. maybe just an obsidian carbine reskin?
bomb: bramble vortex. piercing vortex with stun at the end, graviton upgrade.

IQ:

sword: fang of frostifur. normal damage FoV with freeze. just imagine the charge, everything you hit has a high chance of being frozen and hit again and frozen again and hit again and so on. charge backfire is bearable, you only get stuck in ice.
gun: why not a freeze gun that doesnt immediately break its own freeze? glacier cannon, tundrus upgrade. shoots even slower than magnus type guns, but has good chance of causing freeze every shot and deals normal damage. charge attack fires a bullet that explodes and has high chance of freezing
bomb: ice crusher. elemental blast bomb with freeze.

RRT:

sword: fire WRH as I thought of already might be nice, them you have a way to get a WRH-type sword withou the DLC (even if it is cheap).
gun: as mentioned, both orbitgun and mixmaster reskins
bomb: as mentioned, fire EV reskin

UFSC:

sword: almirian cannonblade. troika upgrade. attacks as fast as a troika with ASD med. normal attack deals elemental and can cause fire. charge attack fires a long range projectile that on impact explodes in a large radius, dealing fire and stun. charge is slow and will always stun you. on how it looks, imagine an old handcannon (basically a small cannon on a pole, see princess mononoke on how they look) wielded as a sword, with knives welded on the sides of the barrel.
gun: burning stake launcher. winter grave with fire instead of freeze, not much to explain here.
bomb: black hole bomb. blast bomb upgrade. very similar to BAB, it has its range, charge time and walk speed. on detonation, it deals shadow damage, has a small chance to inflict curse and deals heavy knockback. but here is the special part, the knockback is toward the center of the explosion. this way you gather enemies with an implosion instead of a continuous vortex that spits them back out at the end.

how about shields...
right now we have three promo-only shields, celestial shield, power mitt and teddy bear buckler. it is pretty easy to give each a reskin in SLs.
celestial can go to RS, teddy bear buckler can go to IQ, power mitt can go to RRT.
but why not add some more?
right now we have two shields that might be worth giving 5* versions to, namely the scarlet shield and the swiftstrike buckler. scarlet is easy, just give it more defense and more health bonus. for SS, why not do something a little different? when you upgrade it, you lose a bit of ASI, only getting medium out of it. shield health raises to a 4* shield level, while normal defense is raised somewhat too. still much weaker that most 5* and still great for offense, but doesnt excel in either. for appearance, just treat it similar to spur, make it blue and add swirls. both of those can go to UFSC.

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 13:07

#15

Fangel

See I was gone for my weekend and y'all do this without me. :(

* Poison flourish - is alright. The negatives of a status flourish is its actual infliction chance, so perhaps an infliction chance buff across the board for status flourishes would make it nicer anyways.

* Poison DBB - okay as well. Might need to have slightly longer charge time especially if it's anything more than a minor status. Could always make it a piercing/poison irontech bomb variation, that'd make both bombs still desirable for different reasons.

* Cluster bomb - sounds nice, we need more bomb variation. Attack differences (random spots, random timing) are interesting too. I'd rather these be standalone bombs that split off from 2* shard bombs instead of shadow lair weapons.

* Mixmaster reskins - yes please. Promo gear should not be anymore more than reskins - Spiral Soaker is still desirable despite being a blitz reskin. However as Rhons brought up the weapon itself is OP - a nerf for the weapon type is due anyways, we can introduce it once everyone who can run these missions gets their hands on them.

* Divine Winmillion - I mean sure, not a bad thing. I've suggested fixes for spurs in the past, and the "mixmaster charge bullet on charge attack" still is a change I would add.

* Shadow fire fang of vog - interesting. Another source of curse is always welcome. If it's more calibur than slower calibur it might work - imagine split status however both statuses are minor only? Perhaps without self infliction. Give it a longer charge time (3 seconds or whatever the medium one is, not GF levels) and you're golden.

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 17:04

#16

Rhons

@Fangel

I thought you were abducted by the Finnish and forced to build saunas for them... Again...

I just don't see a way to keep the Mixmaster for the masses; keeping it unique whilst balanced is something I can't grasp.

Wed, 06/15/2016 - 04:50

#17

Dagunner

@Fangel

With the status flourishes, it would be cool if they were buffed to have their affliction chances increased, this would make them viable.

A longer charge time for a DBB seems like a reasonable tradeoff, especially since it would basically be the bane of healers.

As for the Blast Jelly bombs (or cluster bombs as fangel referred to it), a part of it is just for the novelty of having a bomb that acts like a blast jelly (which you gotta admit would be pretty cool), so the regular Blast Jelly bomb is pretty much a reskin with a slight change in mechanics. The ice jelly bomb on the other had is a completely different story. The ice jelly bomb is rather unique weapon, because its ability to freeze on the initial blast keeps enemies in the area of the cluster bombs, the radius of the initial blast is smaller than a 2* haze bomb, so it won't be comparable to the shivermist, and so the initial blast can freeze while the cluster bombs would thaw the enemies making it useful for wolvers who would normally dodge. So, to make it balanced I think the ice jelly bomb should have a smaller initial blast radius, a slightly longer charge time and a smaller range for the cluster bombs. Note that if the initial blast doesn't hit the enemy then the cluster bomb will, allowing for bomb positioning to be planned for dps in a small area.

^On a side note this makes me want to try a bombing party with 3 shard bombers and a shivermist user.

Mixmasters; While I would like to see them in the wider playerbase, I think balance is more important, so if mixmasters are put in, they should be nerfed significantly to be on par with other guns. Perhaps the ones that currently exist could still be stronger, although on a side note they should probably be nerfed anyway.

As for the FoV and the shadow FoV (SoV) I think the self inflicted fire should be removed since that's already too much of a drawback, but instead it should give either a self inflicted move speed debuff or attack speed debuff, or maybe a 30 second- 1 minute debuff for charge time.

If the attack/movement speed debuff isn't done, then the charge time debuff should be, and the way it would work is by having the original charge time similar to a normal sword's, but when you use the charge you get a 30 second debuff which increases charge time for the FoV/SoV, the debuff stacks while using your charge attack resets the timer to 30 seconds, perhaps decreasing CTR by two stages per stack could work, and if the player has CTR buffs it removes it on the first stack.

So suppose the wielder had the chaos set; on a level 10 FoV/SoV they would get CTR max, after using their charge they would lose their CTR max for 30 seconds, if they use the charge again in that 30 seconds the debuff timer would go back to 30 seconds and they would then get Charge time Increase Medium, subsequent uses would then go to very high then max. Now, charge time increase max would give the opposite of CTR max, which pretty much means it would take 30 seconds to load up a charge attack with your FoV/SoV. This would be an interesting way to make it balanced as it would make it impossible to spam, maybe it would have to be 60 seconds to be balanced.

The SoV would deal a weaker type of fire than the FoV for balance, and the curse chance is even lower than the GF charge. The real strength, or at least the real interesting part of the SoV would be the pure shadow damage. But hopefully this change to the FoV will make it a viable option, and hopefully the SoV will be a good but balanced sword too.

Wed, 06/15/2016 - 09:16

#18

Dagunner

jelly bomb lines

I guess having a jelly bomb line from 2* to 5* and then having the ice jelly bomb as a shadow lair weapon would be good.

The 2* would be called the: "Jelly Bomb" <- super original

The 3* would be called the: "Blast Jelly Bomb"

The 4* would be called the: "Super Blast Jelly Bomb" <- who would've guessed?

The 5* would be called the: "Warmaster Rocket Hammer"

jks, the 5* would be the "Royal Blast Jelly Bomb" or just "Royal Jelly Bomb"

Then the Ice Jelly Bomb would be upgraded from the Super Blast Jelly Bomb after the Ice Queen Shadow lair.

Any suggestions as to what element they'd be? piercing makes sense since slimes deal piercing damage, that or it could do shadow as its kinda anti-slime. Maybe the ice jelly bomb could deal elemental, coz there aren't many bombs that do elemental.

Wed, 06/15/2016 - 14:58

#19

Fangel

through a nerf

Just have to look at what makes Mixmasters OP. What is OP about them?

A) 3 shot combo, two bullets a shot
B) bullets pierce enemies, only explode after hitting a wall or expiring
C) inflicts status
D) isn't considered a projectile by enemies that avoid projectiles
E) deals high amounts of damage

Thus I would recommend:
A) 2 shot combo, two bullets per shot
B) bullets explode after hitting an enemy twice
C) status can remain, however lower infliction chance
D) enemies shield against it/dodge from it
E) can maintain highish damage due to two shot combo

Bam, a balanced weapon. This makes it more alchemer rather than being a super status blaster of exclusivity. The promo versions become cosmetic reskins. It all works out - your ASI VH mixmaster will stay ASI VH, just will be less spammable and immediately destructive of everything.

Thu, 06/16/2016 - 02:08

#20

Dagunner

@Fangel

I see, but wouldn't that still upstage the alchemers?

Thu, 06/16/2016 - 08:57

#21

Rhons

Meanwhile as Rhons

Lollygagging everywhere, spamming Dual Mixmasters everywhere I see fit.

As a mostly dedicated Gunslinger, I would definitely replace most of my Loadouts with Elemental Attacks with the Mixmaster. Each shot is still double an Alchemers Shot and thus is about double an Arcana shot. I get two of each kind; I'm Dualing Mixmasters/Orbitguns.

And then I spam them at Fangel whenever I see him in Loadout. Pretty overpowered, still. Reduce damage to a third to make it on par with an Alchemers in terms of damage, or reduce by half and make it two clip like what Fangel suggested.

Regardless, if this idea is seen by Grey Havens and (GASP) accepted our suggestions, you'll get a new Rhons.

Thu, 06/16/2016 - 11:47

#22

Fangel

is an idea

Not a perfect idea, and I have no way to test the weapon in its current state to see if the presumed fixes would make it worthwhile.

That's currently the biggest issue with the mixmaster, there's not enough out there for us to really play with and balance it all out. Saying "it should be OP because people paid a lot for it" isn't a good reason for a weapon to be OP - instead we should make it on-par with other weapons.

My idea is to make the gun less end-all. As it stands people are sort of lazy with elemental guns and just pulsar things into a corner. Either that or they alch switch, depends on personal skill. With new mixmaster in the game we have a new toy to play with that has a crowd control ability like pulsar while also being non-intrusive while dealing damage like the alchemer. However, it will do neither role better - think of it like the shock status compared to freeze and fire. Freeze does control better, fire does damage better, shock does a bit of both but has its own place as an interruption.

Pulsars used to be "wall spam" weapons. Now they're crowd control weapons. Mixmaster currently deals massive damage with only an entry cost. It does what the pulsar does but better, what alchemers do but better... See what I'm getting at? The idea is to make it a unique and fun weapon that's still usable while not being the overpowered powerhouse it currently is.

I don't mind people using mixmaster in lockdown, to be quite frank. The only thing that bothers me is that the only people that have these weapons have crazy UVs on them, therefore we see an OP weapon even more OP, and cannot judge the base weapon since they are so rare. If everyone who had a pulsar also had a mixmaster, we'd learn counters, weaknesses, strengths, etc for the weapon.

If the only pulsars in the game belonged to elite players who had ASI max on them, you can bet we'd have the same discussion right here with the same points.

Fri, 06/17/2016 - 09:21

#23

Dagunner

Play testing!

I guess this would be a part for Gray havens to worry about; Play testing to find out what would be a balanced position for the mix master, The mix masters would have to fulfill a unique roll and be fun to use (the gun itself is pretty awesome and does that), but it would also have to not outshine the other guns, and so it would have its own purpose and a place where it would be most suitable, and places where it is not.

Fri, 06/17/2016 - 13:23

#24

Rhons

Never Seen a Vanilla-Flavored Mixmaster?

I have a Guildmate with a pure Mixmaster, and I can attest to his view as well as mine as Gunslingers that it is a formidable weapon without doubt.

I still resent this idea of introducing the Mixmaster/Orbitgun to the general, but if experienced players (and those unfamiliar with Handguns) are to test this on a test server, then by all means I am all up for having an opportunity to either prove or disprove my point.

Sat, 06/18/2016 - 06:06

#25

Dagunner

Only Chocolate ones and one Banana

Yeah, So I guess testing with combinations of decreased damage, 2 bullet clip size, modified bullet behaviours would need to be done to find out what would be a good balanced way to add in the mix master/orbit gun without wrecking everything.

Mon, 06/20/2016 - 03:38

#26

Dagunner

Shadow Lair Shields

For each of the shadow lairs, I think a unique shield should be added, the ones in events don't seem that interesting, as they're more there for the sake of having a weird skin and are just normal shields.

For RS: Venomous Thorn Shield

There could be a green BTS which doesn't provide a sword attack bonus (or atleast a smaller one), but instead makes shield charge have a snarbolax animation (kinda like the tortodrone shields and the BTB charge) and poisons. It would have the same defensive values and health as the BTS, but with poison resist instead of stun. This would be upgraded from the dark thorn shield.

For IQ: Ice Jelly Shield

An Ice variant of the royal jelly shield could be made which provides a defense buff when frozen. Would have the same defense values as a royal jelly shield but less health, it would have freeze defense instead of sleep. This would be upgraded from the rock jelly shield.

For RRT: Mercurial Capacitor

A mercurial demo shield could be made which provides bomb CTR, and/or MSI (if other bombing shields are made then MSI is a good option), this would have elemental defense and shock and fire resistance like the grey owlite shield, however it would have a noticeably lower amount of defense and health. I have no idea what this would be upgraded from.

UFSC: Fall of Almire

a crest of almire with the same cursed theme as the blackened crest could be made, it has a chance of cursing whatever breaks the shield. It has the same stats as the crest of almire, except it has decreased fire and shock resist and 2 bars of curse vulnerability. Upgraded from the blackened crest.

While some of these abilities may seem outside of the role of shields, most of these things are similar to features present in the game, the venomous thorn shield is like the tortodrone shields, only it poisons instead of doing extra damage, the ice jelly shield simply makes the user take reduced damage while frozen (a shield kinda does this anyway), the Mercurial Capacitor would just be another stat increasing shield that's made for bombers (this is kinda needed as bombers are the only ones without one) and the Fall of Almire would be helpful, but as it requires being broken to do anything special, its ability is too risky to be worth abusing.

Tue, 06/21/2016 - 17:17

#27

Fangel

did tests

I have a friend who has a mixmaster as well and I did some tests with them.

As it stands the mixmaster is literally all the good things about pulsar and drivers with none of the drawbacks. Well that's sort of a lie, mixmaster guns are terrible in close quarters, but other than that they are a bit too good. So what makes a mixmaster so good?

It deals the same damage as a storm driver, and actually has the same amount of bullets... If you count ricochets. This means that the mixmaster is essentially a noob friendly storm driver, meaning you can land all internal ricochets by spamming the bullets. However, the balance to ricochets on drivers are that you have to have good aim.

To the next area, mixmaster also has larger bullet area, meaning it's like an expanded pulsar shot that follows you.

My own nerf to the mixmaster gun lines would be two shot clip, and unexpanded pulsar line damage. With max damage in the training hall we were doing 212 damage per hit against weak targets, and mixmaster would thus hit for 1272 damage per clip. Unexpanded pulsars did 186 damage, meaning you'd do 744 damage per clip with a mixmaster. This is still a high-end weapon, as at the same depth and damage boost a specialized blaster will do 230 damage per bullet(weak target), or 690 damage per clip at max damage.

Basically as it stands, the mixmaster is a weapon that does in fact deal far too much damage. Pulsar lines dealt something like 248 damage per expanded bullet, I don't really remember. That's still less damage than mixmaster's current combo.

Anyways, after adjusting the mixmaster to be more similar to other guns that it mimics, it'll prove to be a great addition to all arsenals, hence it being more widespread.

Tue, 06/21/2016 - 18:10

#28

Dagunner

Nice job with the tests

So with the suggested nerf the mixmasters would deal less damage than an alchemer but would make up for it for how easy it is to hit stuff? Also, how would the mixmasters go if they were shield switched?

Wed, 06/22/2016 - 10:40

#29

Rhons

Still the Point Yet Unaccounted For

My Guild Master of the League of Gunners and friend have a Mixmaster. As we specialize in Gunslinging, we know how to efficiently use a Single Handgun, whether Single-Switching or (what I do) Dual Wielding.

I can attest that although none of us has two Mixmasters/Orbitguns, simply witnessing Single-Switching of a Mixmaster should tell anyone it is still vastly superior to both an Alchemer and a Pulsar.

We're not talking about clip-size when you're Gunslinging. It all comes down to DPS, both from damage and attack speed, rather than total damage of a clip. If I recall correctly, the Mixmaster dishes out shots comparable to a Blaster. When switching back to the Handgun via Single-Switching, suddenly we see just raw damage per shot to be the main comparison.

Let's take in consideration of Fangel's proposed nerf:

372 Mixmaster (186 * 2) versus 230 Blaster. By the time we shoot another Blaster shot, we have almost also shot another Mixmaster twin-disc. Recalling from observations of the past, I could probably make a rough guess of comparable Attack Speeds and Total Damages:

For two Blaster shots in rapid succession, the Mixmaster has fired approximately 1.5 shots.
Four Blaster Shots would be roughly the same time as three Mixmaster shots when both are Single-Switched.
At Four Blaster Shots, total damage is 920. For three Mixmaster shots, damage is 1116.

*This list takes in account that Fangel did not suggest slowing down the Attack Speed of the Mixmaster.

At the end, we have further shown Fangel's work and studies of how grossly superior the Mixmaster is. I can also throw in my hypothesis of the total damage and shots Dual Wielding Mixmasters (equipping two Mixmasters in both weapon slots); just adjust the 1.5 in the lists to be 1.75.

I've yet to see precise aiming of regular Alchemer shots to deal internal ricochet damage (aside from their charges). I need to see this myself. However, I am certain with a possibly wide area for mistake in aiming Alchemers that Mixmasters will surely deal more damage in actual damage rather than in theorized/ideal damages. This would further give reason in making the Mixmaster a Shadow Lair weapon. I'm still not content on having it branch off of Pulsars, though.

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Shadow lair weapons (with actual weapon ideas)