Spiral Knights - (Supply Depot > Market) Problen Solved

(Supply Depot > Market) Problen Solved

13 replies [Last post]

Thu, 07/21/2016 - 10:18

Giftbr

After looking into it for years, i saw a clear price control in hands of players with huge wallets, after a long discuss in gereneal forum, and months thinking about it, i came with this solution:

- Make Energy bound after the first trade, ie energy will only be unbound when it is first purchase with real money.

Because, the reason behind the price control and the high price of energy on supply depot > market its not the amount of people buying and selling it (supply/demand from captalism) the reason is the energy caming back to the market to generate profit, in a price that no one else is trying to buy it, so, a number of people (i found some of they here in foruns) is buying ALL energy with 9500 crowns or less, and selling it at 10200 crowns or more, these two numbers may change time to time, but the point is the same.

With this fix, no one that buy energy today will stop to buy it, and A LOT of people that stoped buying energy on the market (and playing the game, after all, you need energy to play it) will came back again, or this will prevent players from stop playing for this reason in a month or two.

All i want with this post its to make Grey Havens Staff arcknowledge this idea, and talk with people in the Staff that can make it happens, if it will be implemented or not, i dont care with it right know, i just want that the right person get to know this ieda, so please, make it happens.

Thu, 07/21/2016 - 12:21

Fangel

err

This actually effectively kills the market. Without energy resellers, the overall energy that is being sold drops tremendously.

Let's say, oh, one player decides to run 40% of the market. This isn't really the case but for this example let's go with it.

So this player buys energy when it drops, and sells it when it goes back up. Their purchase and reselling methods make up for 40% of the energy trades. By preventing this player from doing this, overall energy in the market drops 40%. This will make energy prices rise as less and less energy is able to be sold, outside of players who purchase energy with real money. As it stands, the players who purchase energy with real money aren't always doing so to resell immediately.

Now, every trade in the energy market is sinking energy. For simplicity's sake, let's say that reducing the overall energy in the market by 40%, it also rises by 40%. Energy would then cost 14k crowns. As time goes on tradable energy goes lower. Energy prices keep rising while energy supply is dwindling because players can't trade it.

New players are the ones most affected by this. They have fewer crowns in the first place, and on top of that, need energy the most to progress. End-game players don't need energy due to having all the gear they need, and will just change their ways to do transactions via crowns.

- - - - - - - - - -

IMO we need to keep a flowing and active market without having huge walls to conquer. As mentioned in the general discussion thread, having people with large amounts of energy buying and selling isn't bad for the market, however it is harder on players who just want energy. If the market is moving, it's a good market. If it's stuck, it's a bad market.

My personal suggestions are the following:

Limit energy trades so that only 100 trades in total are available at a time per knight (buy and sell offers combined)
Limit individual trades so that no more than 10 of a certain value can be offered at a time per knight
Add a small listing tax/fee for all offers. Something small like 15 crowns per offer (x10 = 150 crowns to list). This is returned to the player upon the offer being completed, but not if they cancel it

Boom, now you have a more involved market that actually moves, if only slightly. It also makes players who are heavily into the market metagame need to remain active in the market rather than just listing a bazillion offers then logging off for the day to do the same thing the next day. Lastly it encourages keeping your listings on the market after you've listed them else you'll be cheated out of the small crown profit you're trying to make (unless you're just purchasing energy or crowns, in which case it's not that big of a deal).

TL;DR - Limiting energy trading to only be tradable once removes market profiteers, which in turn removes a large chunk of energy from the market, raising energy prices. Making energy tradable infinitely but in smaller amounts that don't effect buyers but does make profiteers have to be more active is a good way to make the market fun at any price.

Thu, 07/21/2016 - 14:49

Giftbr

i disagree

With no re-sellers, we will have LESS supply, but also, LESS demand, regulating the flow with only people that want trade, without focusing on profit.

And a market profiter do not need to control all the market, only the today's sell price at 10299cr with a wall of 1000+ (last time i saw it today had it was around x1200) and the buy price at 9499cr with a wall of 1000+ (last time i saw it, was yersterday, and it was around x600) every bit off with these limits will simple disapear, if the boundaries need to change, he simple change it with 2 new walls.

The problen with a lot of energy/crowns in the moment of implementation is real, if a profiter want to crash it, he need to turn all his wallet to crowns, so he can buy every energy offer, but that is temporary, and easily fixed, by turning everyone crowns into bound energy with the rate 100 crowns to 1 energy.

Energy sink its the point of buying energy on the first place, no one buy it to keep it, for that you have crowns, people buy energy to have a fastfoward gameplay, burning it with gear, craft, forge, sparks, and everything else, its no such thing like energy accumulation, this way of view started with energy market profiters, when 100 cristal energy was 4500 crowns, and i am pretty sure that new players will love to buy energy around 5k crowns or less, because the little player base, less people buying it, and was stated before, bound energy will not reduce the energy buyers (with real money). And you are right, the top-end-players are the one behind all this energy market problens, just because they are bored and are... bad people i gess.

The walls its not the problen, its just one sympton, that limits with trades and listenings, do not end the problen, it just treat one sympton, the profiters will be there, only that this time the lasy ones will not follow.

"" (unless you're just purchasing energy or crowns, in which case it's not that big of a deal). "" that is the key reason of a energy market exist, but there need to me a place where only that can exist, or profiters will take over it, like AH is today, but that is another topic...

Thu, 07/21/2016 - 15:37

Fangel

somewhat

End-game players buy energy because they're invested in the game. They obtain energy through various transactions with other players who have obtained energy, should it be selling a rare item or purchasing directly.

As an end-game player, why should I sell energy if I can make that money super easily by just running the arcade? I could make close to 4,500 in ten minutes from running sewer stash's first level 5 times. Why would I want to sell my rare energy for anything less than 10k-20k crowns? Sure demand is lower, but if it can only be traded once I won't be willing to part with it so easily.

It sounds like you want to end energy market profiting. The people who sell energy on the energy market are doing it for profit OR for quick cash. Unless there is a need for quick cash (ie, a good crown sink), there will be no need for energy to be bought by end-game players. This hurts early-game players who need energy the most, making them pay more for a resource that is rarer.

Personally I think the problem with the market is that it's hard to get into without feeling hopeless. When prices are high you know you can just grind harder to get it, or maybe it'll drop in price and meet you half way. When prices are high and there are giant walls of offers, your offer won't ever get seen unless you pay more or get less. Walls create hopelessness in all players. Removing walls (but keeping generally the same offers by the same person) reduces that hopelessness and makes more people partake in the market, allowing for something that's more fun to partake in rather than hopeless so you ignore it.

Additionally you mention people "don't buy energy to keep it". Since 7/31/2013, I'm pretty sure that's a good reason people buy energy still. They keep it for when it'll be useful, then spend it when needed. Flash sales on the supply depot are a prime example of this, especially if a rare item appears - you want to be prepared, and since they aren't heavily announced, you'll need to prep year-round. There's little to no use of energy once you reach 5*, other than buying low star orbs of alchemy.

Thu, 07/21/2016 - 21:30

Giftbr

that energy its from market, not real money

End-game players do not need energy for fast gameplay, they just buy it, because it only get more expensive (its a circle do you see?), and that only happens because of the profiters, if there is no profiters, and no eng-game buyer for savings, energy will be real cheap, that is great, what you are complaning about?

Also 4500 crowns its the energy price for over a year or two when i start playing SK.

If some special flash sale happens, its also way better for gray havens, to have people buying energy with real money, not with all infinite crowns wallet some old players have today, and if you dont have the real money, you can buy it with your fast farming skills, making the energy price go up, that is how market suppose to be, that is great too...

Why you will make it hard or annoying to re-sell the energy with a bigger price, when you can end it making everything else be better and without breaking anything? All the new players will not stop to buy energy from people selling it, all people that buy energy with real money today will not stop to doing it, to me its a win-win situation.

Fri, 07/22/2016 - 08:05

Eternity-Terminal

Carbon based error!

Also 4500 crowns its the energy price for over a year or two when i start playing SK.

That was probably because of the energy deal which beta players had. I couldn't find a good source to back this up, but any energy purchased during the beta would get it all back plus 10%. (If someone bought 9000 energy, for example, they'd get 9900 energy upon the game's release.) This lead to a humongous energy influx in the market, which meant that energy prices stayed low for quite a while. And the price stayed low as many of those players slowly progressed through the game (mist system, remember?) meaning that it stayed low the whole time.

Due to the mist system's demise, you can get infinite crowns easily. This means that there are as many crowns as one can grind, thus meaning that there are always more and more crowns coming in.

So, yes, the energy cost will always be higher than the mist-energy years. There's no way around that.

Fri, 07/22/2016 - 10:07

Giftbr

over a year its not a while

+10% energy at purchase should generate only -10% energy price, its how % works, also, i didint play that much every day, but i did over a year back them, and the +/- 4500 crowns price was for years, noting that last over a year is for a while lol.

The purpose of mist energy was for elevators, and was never enough, by the way, to craft back them you need pay in energy the price of 3x alchemy orbs today, so yea 5* gear need 800 energy at crafting, -100 from mist energy do not make it happens, therefore with todays no elevator cost and orbs droping, we have way more "energy" than with mist energy, and that means less demand, that means cheaper energy today, than back in the day.

The only reason of a expencive energy today, its the player base, i gess today we have more farmers than energy buyers, that is why i suppose that energy will be way more cheap after the bound implement, around 7500 crowns, unless of couse the player base still with the same % of farmers and energy buyers of that time, it this is the case, energy will drop to 4500 crowns, that is called market.

Fri, 07/22/2016 - 11:13

Fangel

not really

The usage that energy gave back in the day is mostly gone. Energy is no longer required to move forwards in the game, but it does a hefty amount to speed up progress.

We have a huge crown inflation right now. Elite difficulty (with higher drop tables) didn't exist before the switch away from energy, and you had limited farming time. As such, energy was cheaper because people didn't have as many crowns. Now-a-days, you can generate tens if not hundreds of thousands of crowns per day, as just one knight.

You really are asking for cheap energy, but the system you propose would only make prices higher due to not enough energy flowing through the system.

I'd rather just make changes to the energy market rather than how energy itself works. Energy itself isn't a problem, the market is.

Fri, 07/22/2016 - 20:12

Giftbr

we already talked about it (half of it)

The supply will diminish without re-selles, but the demand will diminish +/- in the same amount without the re-selles, then the market will be a healty place for traders with energy meet traders with crowns.

About the elite difficulty, back in the day, elite was the standard difficulty, normal and advanced was created for casual players (i gess the elite/normal-back-in-te-day was too impossible for some people to reach the core), drops is actualy lowered in todays normal (10% of rarity) and advanced (40% of rarity) difficulties.

The only thing that made crown inflation was the profiters at market acumuling realy large amount of crowns with the purpose to get a even bigger amount of crowns, the game have enough crowns sinks the way it is already. But sure, hardcore farmers will have a uphand than casual players about their crowns wallet, but it is how suppose to be, if you want to farm 100k each day, its ok, you earn it, if you want to buy 1600 energy each day, its ok, you can use that at will, and both can trade with 100 energy being 6250 crowns, that is how market suppose to be, then each player will think about it and choose to be the farming one, or the cash one, how cool is that?

Sat, 07/23/2016 - 00:27

Fangel

nope

Before rarities, the standard "loot" difficult was the advanced difficulty. Elite gives us more crowns than the old difficulty. As such, all forms of generating crowns have gone up, resulting in higher energy prices for people who run on elite difficulty.

You say demand will drop once the supply drops, however, you fail to account for the fact that only resellers will stop reselling. There is still a moderate demand for energy at all times due to player progression - limiting the supply will only make those selling energy sell it for more as new players become more desperate to get the rare currency through F2P means. Either that or the new players will quit, then the energy sellers will quit due to not selling energy, then you have a big problem there. Best case scenario is prices lower, worst is you lose the very people who benefit from such a change due to frustration.

You want energy to cost 4,500 crowns, it seems. With crown inflation, that isn't going to happen, no matter how many restrictions on energy you make.

Sat, 07/23/2016 - 06:46

#10

Giftbr

i didint know that

True, old classic difficulty had a lower crown drop hate, todays elite being 100%, old classic had 80%, todays advanced have 75% and normal 60%, the Wiki do not have information abount the rarities, but my personal feeling was normal crowns/heat drop (that was wrong) and elite normal raritie drop, advanced half of it, and normal 10% of it (what can be wrong too). With that in mind you actualy get "energy" by farming energy only itens like cristals, orbs and sparks, and the "moderate demand" that i am "fail to account" will not be that helpless or desesperate, that by the way, they already are with 11000 crowns for 10 energy.

That means +20% crows during farming, ie +20% energy price, if player base still have the same % of energy buyers and crowns farmers, it will generate a 4500x0,20 therefore 5400 crowns, not the todays 11k crowns -.- still have no way to justify this ridiculous price that is not the profiters re-sellers.

Its not many restrictions, it is only one, a market free of re-sellers, you want to profit with market? cool, buy energy when the price is good for you! No one will stop buying energy on the market, its the whole point (in a way) of farming, no one will stop buying energy with real money to sell on the market, its also the whole point of doing it (in a way).

Sat, 07/23/2016 - 06:50

#11

Giftbr

profiters re-seller its cancer

And you have to keep in mind that profiters re-sellers is a cancer in any economy, in-game or in the real world, you cant have a healthy market with people doing that, some one will allways being cheated and loosing money, and have no real world economy that depends on re-sellers existence, think about gazolin, if some one buy all gazolin of your town, and sell it double of the price.

Sat, 07/23/2016 - 09:53

#12

Fangel

Over time the energy prices increased. Since we had a small number of players and a small number of crowns back in the day, energy prices were lower. The "normal" energy prices were at around 6-8k during the end of the mist era, meaning energy is more likely worth "7k-9k" now.

Years of crowns being gained just means the price has gone up. If I buy 1,600 energy right now, I'd be making about 160,000 crowns. If I only got around 80k or less, I probably wouldn't sell that energy. I may not even purchase it in the first place. This is coming from a casual player who likes to support the game with occasional purchases.

It's one thing to "sell on the market". It's another one to be a part of a moving and flowing market with highs and lows. Most proposals I've seen don't address market walls. Yours does, but it creates the same effect that walls do - the market doesn't move. The problem with that is the fact that there simply isn't enough people participating anymore.

A healthy market does not have a monopoly, I agree. However, by making energy only tradeable once, you are encouraging only large spenders to create an energy monopoly. The reason we don't have a monopoly right now is simply because resellers and purchasers sell the same item at the same price.

Resellers aren't doing anything bad, they're keeping a market flowing. The problem is when they turn this flowing market into a personal energy/crown shop.

Sat, 07/23/2016 - 17:04

#13

Giftbr

large wallet and market flow

I dont see why grey havens events will not make the market do big moves after the energy is bound, if it does it today, it will do a little strong with bound implemented.

Also, the large crowns wallet issue can be solved with a fix within the bound after the first trade, that is change each 100 crowns into 1 bound energy, for every character in the game, granting good chances to get that 6-8k energy price (i still think it will be acound 4500 crowns without any grey havens special sales).

And iven if the energy prices get to 15k, it will be a price without re-selles, therefore easy to tell why and find a fix, like one kind of event/sale, all this long discussion its because of the fog created by profiters re-sellers, at least some people can see that the market need help, 90% (or less) do not have a single clue about it.

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(Supply Depot > Market) Problen Solved