Permafroster and Winter Grave

20 replies [Last post]
Milly-Souls's picture
Milly-Souls

Hey all, I'm thinking about getting a permafroster and a winter grave, but I have a few questions.

Are they good for compound 42? Is there any other applications to them? I feel like the freeze would outright deny the knockback of these weapons. Responses from permafroster and/or winter grave users appreciated.

Bopp's picture
Bopp
response

I'm integrating my answers from this thread and your other thread on the same topic.

I haven't used Permafroster, but I agree that the freeze would seem to cancel the knockback. Actual users may chime in with better information on that. In general, both Pulsar-line guns and freeze are used for crowd-control. That's nice, but freeze can actually hurt your crowd control (by hindering knockback, kiting, shield-bumping, etc.), and it's better just to kill the enemy.

Winter Grave, like all Magnus-line guns, has an awesome charge attack, although the freeze detracts from it a little. Try to aim so that you hit the monsters near the end of the charge attack; extra damage happens there. If you have large charge time reduction, then Winter Grave is highly effective in Compound 42 and many other areas. So are Iron Slug and Umbra Driver.

So my recommendation for a shadow gun in Compound 42 would be Winter Grave or Umbra Driver. You could also consider Grim Repeater and Phantamos. Happy travels.

Nuclear-Lynx's picture
Nuclear-Lynx
I was thinking about getting

I was thinking about getting a Permafroster also. I watched a video on grinchlin assault and the person was running with Permafroster, grim reaper and 2 mixmasters and he made a very good point for using the permafroster. He said (and his video showed it) that the permafroster knocked down the enemies every hit and freezed a decent amount of enemies. Now this person is a pure gunner and knew how to use the guns effectively (he was also soloing) so I don't know how well it would do in a full party or when used by an inexperienced gunner.

In my opinion Winter grave is more worth getting because I think it is essential in C42 as it freezes the enemies and can almost one shot everything but I wouldn't really know since I don't have a permafrost.

Jazzberry-Jam's picture
Jazzberry-Jam
Winter grave

Winter grave is an amazing gun. I am extremely pleased with its performance. The thing is, this gun can be effectively used against 3 classes of monsters, not just the two that are vulnerable to shadow (slimes and gremlins). I have used this gun with almost as much effectiveness against constructs too.

Even against mecha knights. The key is to have your charged attack ready, walk backwards while knights come to you, and when they are close enough and prepare their attack, fire the "missile" to knock them to the other side of the screen for an insta kill or if freeze kicks in, you just got to do another charge attack from behind them.

Fallen-Feces's picture
Fallen-Feces
do it

get that thing. its op for Ice Queen runs, basically any slime/gremlin/mech mission. Although it does freeze which means less KB that can still be really useful.

Sgt-Brownie's picture
Sgt-Brownie
Just passing by...

The Winter Grave is no doubt the only handgun that complements its Freeze status exceptionally well, combining the Magnus line's crowd control mechanisms with an excellent trapping ability to create an unprecedented monster of a gun that, in the right hands, puts the likes of famous crowd control weapons to shame. To put it into perspective, imagine a Glacius that can flinch mobs on all hits regardless of the type of attack used, whether it be charge attacks or even regular attacks.

Whereas the Hail Driver's and Permafroster's multi-hit/spamming potential makes it hard to consistently benefit from the Freeze status, the Winter Grave's burst shots allow you to not accidentally hit mobs right after they got frozen. Add in the fact that the Magnus line can and usually will flinch almost everything, and you got a gun whose normal shots can easily pick and cripple priority mobs, leaving them or the rest of the horde wide-open for its more devastating charge shot.

Winter Grave's charge shot is by far the best self-synergy of a charge shot I've ever seen, usually creating two distinct situations that can only be summarized as such:
1) You deal insane amounts of Burst and DPS as the shot plows through everything
2) You freeze everything in its path and leave them open for another charge shot
Either way, you will be able to efficiently crowd control with it as the shot will flinch everything that isn't a front-shield or a block, if not outright carry them all the way.

~~~~~

On the other hand, the Permafroster is arguably the worst Shadow-type handgun in the game, and even by Pulsar standards it fails to reach the same amount of utility as its brothers do.

As stated above, its Freeze status will usually be a non-existent entity due to the spamming potential that comes with the Pulsar line, and even when the Freeze may pop up, it'll more often than not be a hindrance as it nullifies the knockback received, thus helping you less in trapping hordes in a corner or even creating breathing room for you.

Furthermore, despite its huge AoE, its slow travel speed will make you hard-pressed to hit any gremlin with it, and while it may superbly handle most slimes thanks to its knockback and flinching, the Winter Grave already does that just as well while better handling most gremlins, and even the underwhelming Biohazard, on top of being just as good against Slimes, has at least the added bonus of quickly disintegrating Jelly King/Ice Queen with its more useful Poison status.

Nebrium's picture
Nebrium
...

Winter Grave is good for its charge, but that's it... It requires more time and cautiousness which can get really rough..

Permafroster can be super mean, effective and safe if you can achieve double tap double switching.

Nuclear-Lynx's picture
Nuclear-Lynx
So a friend is inviting my to

So a friend is inviting my to an Ice queen run and I was wondering if the Permafroster would be better for the polyps than the Winter grave or better than a black chaingun. I also have a shadow driver but I am not to good with alchemers so I wanted to know which of those guns should be my third weapon.

I am currently going to be going with chaos cloak, vog cap, barbarous thorn shield, Cumbuster, Acheron, and a gun for the Polyps. Since I have never done a SL before I was wondering if this is good or if I need to tweak it a bit.

Neometal's picture
Neometal

Elemental def barely helps, since the only things which do that there are the lumbers, but if those hit you w/o any freeze res, you'll be screwed over anyways. So instead of the vog helm, go full glasscannon and take the chaos cowl if you have that.

I'd say that instead of the polyps, worry more about the boss and take one of the weps with good charged attacks. The Grim Repeater and Winter Grave work wonders against IQ, the Umbra Driver is fine. too. If you don't wana mess around on the final map for too long take one those instead of the pulsar. It is the easiest/fastest sl boss fight, and you won't be able to contribute too much with a froster. Well, it may be good for keeping the swarm seed down, but if the players know what they are doing the fight shouldn't take longer than a normal JK fight. Basically, just do an autogun or magnus charge or two into it and it'll start spinning around. Wait for it to calm down, then do more charges. Poison and or deadly cloak helps.

(Also, on the first to depths, others in the party can take care of the polyps and you can focus on murdering other stuff.)

Bopp's picture
Bopp
good, but

Your planned loadout is good. As Neometal said, Ice Queen is probably the easiest of the Shadow Lairs.

I would much rather use Winter Grave, Umbra Driver, or Grim Repeater than Permafroster. On the plus side, freeze-invulnerable monsters will be knocked back fully by Permafroster's shots. So at least that defect of the weapon is nullified.

If you want us to comment on other possible loadouts, you should tell us what other items you have. For example, Ice Queen is one of the few places where Gran Faust might be better than Acheron (for holding back crowds of slimes with knockback). But Acheron is great there too.

Nuclear-Lynx's picture
Nuclear-Lynx
I haven't really branched out

I haven't really branched out in terms of armors so my options are the firefly set, vog set, or chaos cloak mixed with one of the other armors or mixed with seerus. I figured that the vog cap would be best since I won't need to use guns accept for the boss and polyps.

In terms of my weapons I should have said that I only have the 4* or all the shadow guns I mentioned but that slipped my mind. The only weapons that I can think would be good in the Ice queen that I have are Gran faust and Iron slug. So I don't know how much that help with possible loadouts I could use but that is all I really have.

Another thing I wanted to say was that I think that it will only be myself and my friend (he is using his gunning account I think) , so I don't know if that changes anything or not.

Edit: Just a side thought. If it is almost just like normal JK would it be decently usefull to use the combuster to kill the Ice queen?

Thx for all your help :)

Neometal's picture
Neometal

IQ hp-vise is about the same as JK, but her healing is better, there are more mobs to aid and there's also the swarm seed in the middle of the area. So if you can do enough dmg fast, it's about the same. That's why your chaingun or tundrus would be better for the boss. You could try with swords, but the jelly bosses are the easiest with guns.

If you haven't alrdy, you should watch some vids about the fight, maybe the first 2 depts, too.

Nuclear-Lynx's picture
Nuclear-Lynx
Ok so guns would just be

Ok so guns would just be overall better for the fight.

I have indeed watched someone solo it so I know to layout of the levels and what to expect.

Nuclear-Lynx's picture
Nuclear-Lynx
I completed it!

So first off I want to say I loved finally feelling like I had a challenge in PvE. I loved how tight most of the areas where and how challenging they where. Now that being said I only had to revive once (even though that was in the core level) while my friend who had soloed the shadow lair like twice reved probably like 12 times. Even though I only had to rev once I was on like half health most of the run lol.

Now I did decide to bring the 4* Permafroster and I have to say it worked wonders. I really don't understand why people say it is bottom line when it comes to shadow weapons. It interrupted the enemies from attacking, did a nice amount of damage, and knocked them away which was useful in those tight areas. As far as it being useful for non freeze levels I would still it is a very decent weapon and it is even useful in D&N for the toxic slimes. I love this weapon.

I know this may seem weird but when my brother used his polaris I thought it was a really cool and good weapon, but once I got one myself when I started out I hated it. (this is the weird part) I absolutely hated the knock back. I thought it just messed with everything you and other players where doing and that the only time the knock back was good was when you where in a tight spot. So I sold it to a vendor after only 3 days of getting it. When I decided to give the Permafroster a try I instantly liked it. The freeze makes it so that they aren't knocked back as often while maintaining a very nice dps (which I love), if you want you can spam it enough so that if you are in a tight spot it will knock them back (which is useful sometimes), and on freeze levels I actually like the knock back since I have no freeze protection and freeze slimes are really annoying.

I know this will sound SUPER weird and you may think "what is wrong with this guy" but I like the Permafroster WAY more that the Polaris. With that being said I think it is a very nice and under rated weapon but I think that the Winter grave still beats it out by a solid amount.

That is my thought on the weapon :)

Bopp's picture
Bopp
for me

For me the problem is the unpredictability. With Wildfire I know exactly how much knockback is going to happen. With Polaris and Permafroster I know less well.

The elemental Brandish charge attacks have the same issue, although the damage relationship is reversed. (Combuster does more damage than Glacius, because of the knockback; as you've observed, Permafroster can do more damage than Wildfire, because of the lack of knockback.)

If I want to do lots of damage, I'll skip Pulsars entirely. I use Pulsars only for knockback and status-spreading. But in the end they are viable weapons, and I'm glad that you had good luck with them.

Pankeiks
Issues

I know that this is pretty off topic but should I get the winter grave or the iron slug? I was impressed by the DPS even it is normal damage weapon

Neometal's picture
Neometal
both? ye, both

In the long run if you can afford to, get both guns.

It kinda depends on what types of lvls you play on. As you probably know the WG's dmg is the same as the slug's vs consturct/beast, better vs grems and slime and kinda trash vs undead/fiend. There's also the freeze which can make chargespamming easier since the mobs will most likely be unable to move if they didn't get annihilated by the first charge. The slug has stun which is also another good crowd controlling effect.

If you are fsc farming - like most of the community - definately go for the slug. If not, then it's your choise.

Bopp's picture
Bopp
Iron Slug

In general, freeze can be helpful or hurtful to your playing --- hurtful because it hinders knockback, kiting, shield-bumping, and other tactics used by expert players all the time.

Specifically for Winter Grave, it's true that freeze lets you set up another charge shot. But you need to aim that charge shot into the front of the monster to get the full effect. Also the freeze stops the charge's knockback. You want to set up your charge shot so that it hits the target near the end of the shot's range. So Winter Grave forces you to do a lot of maneuvering, which wastes time. It would be a more powerful gun if the freeze were replaced by poison, stun, or fire.

You are right that Iron Slug does so much damage that the fact that it's normal hardly matters. And normal damage can actually be helpful, when you are firing into a crowd of monsters with differing protections. And Magnus-style charge attacks lend themselves to that kind of play. And Iron Slug's stun doesn't have the problems that freeze has.

So in the end I'd go with Iron Slug. But Winter Grave is not a bad choice (except against undead and fiends).

Pankeiks
Guns

Thanks for responding, somehow I feel I got an interest in guns, especially in the alchemers, could I know any more information about guns? I am using chaos set, sometimes I don't feel like going melee, I do rarely get hit in the worst situations ( shock status is a pain) and that's where I really think guns would do better.

Bopp's picture
Bopp
Gunslinger Guide

Have you read the Gunslinger Guide on the wiki? It's not perfect, but it offers a lot of advice.

If you're thinking about armor, then you could read the Handgun section of my armor guide.

If you're just thinking about weapons, then I recommend the alchemers and Magnus-line guns for both fun and power. And the Autogun-style guns are good for power but not fun. And some of the other guns can be useful (e.g. Pulsar-style guns for knockback) or interesting (e.g. Catalyzer-style guns).

Skiino's picture
Skiino
I personally found more

I personally found more useful permafroster than winter grave. It's your choince anyway