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Sealed Swords, Brandish, and you!.. plus a bit of rant, as always.

20 replies [Last post]
Fri, 06/17/2011 - 09:36
crimsonsteel
Legacy Username

so heres another of my little irks with the game.
you start spiral knights. you see people running around with a shiny yellow/purple sword (depending on which line they went) leaving floating paper seals in the air. you see them dispatch zombies and slimes with a mere 3hits on a 2 hit sword. you go "holy core, i want that sword" so you slave the next day or week getting the jelly tokens to make one. the day arises you have your cherished [insert faust/avenger] and you merrily go slaying the little slimes or gun puppies of the world. then you die cos of lag, or the Konjuring Kat, whatever. your teammate has a maxed weapon, just like you, no bonus UVs or inherent armor bonuses. he's using a blizzbrand, you think "oh thats pretty cool" (and beat yourself for using a crappy pun). so while youre dead, you notice him running through jelly castle smashing those gun puppies to save you. and you notice the damage. it's 30 above what you do on a gun puppy (using an avenger). *First room of Jelly Palace - F15?*

why the core does it do so much damage for a weapon with supposedly lower stats.
a weapon that has a 3 hit combo.
a weapon that you dont have to slave your chassis off to get (well not AS much anyway - perspective of a newer player who sucks at JK runs).

shouldnt the avenger obviously be doing more?

i havent seen a silent nightblade vs faust yet in the same run and floor, but id assume its the same deal. same line, same relative stats (silent nightblade to blizzbrand) according to the image, and if it is just as rigged... shouldnt faust most certainly be doing more damage, due to the player-curse that can ruin a room for you?

for that matter, shouldnt the sealed sword line charge attacks be boosted somewhat above what they currently are?

it seems a bit like sealed sword line is quite ridiculously bad compared to the brandish line.
compound that issue with recovery time after a combo/attack, and add lag on that - suddenly you have one sword doing horrible dps which leaves you open to dying far to often, and one sword which not only has a decent damaging charge attack, but does good dps, allows for manouverability and also lets you bring a shield up after a combo, just in time to beat that spot of lag kicks in which would otherwise leave you open to that lumberers swing.

good for you, brandish users having a sword which seems to keep giving, bad for a lot of us others who got conned into the whole "naw, Gran Faust is pretty awesome, its better - dont worry" (not gonna say Divine Avenger there, cos someones gonna mention vanaduke which i cbb talking about in relation to this)

-Matt

Fri, 06/17/2011 - 10:00
#1
Rommil's picture
Rommil
I have Combuster (fire brandish) and Gran Faust

Really,

one is no better than the other. My Combuster is construct medium UV and my Gran Faust has no UV. Yet, i'd say my Combuster is no better vs constructs than is my GF vs Slimes. You cannot discount the knockback (the perfect!! knockback!!) of the sealed sword line. The first swing knocks opponents back ever so far that 90% of their attacks will miss yet leaves them just within reach of your next swing! which then in turn knocks them back even further (again, making you safe).

Heck, it does less damage, but often times, my Gran Faust is the safer option versus mechaknights, deals much less damage, but if i have 1 bar of health left, i'm less likely to take damage.

Also, when comparing weapons, you have to put the gran faust up vs the silent nightblade. (shadow vs. shadow) And vs JK, while it is too dangerous to do the GF charge attack, it can curse on normal hit, which can be invaluable at times.

All that being said. I think the path of least resistance, and most efficiency, is to take the Nightblade as your primary shadow weapon (and primary brandish line) and then use your jelly-tokens on a DA (as your primary elemental damage sword). This gives you one awesome shadow weapon vs. slimes, and an awesome elemental weapon for constructs and undead, that pulls double duty as the ultimate FSC (tier 3 boss) sword.

Just my opinion tho.

Fri, 06/17/2011 - 10:08
#2
Gigafreak
Legacy Username
The point of the Divine

The point of the Divine Avenger is not the damage per swing, but the strong knockback and excellent charged attack (which also has strong knockback).

The point of the Faust is, similarly, the strong knockback and the chance to Curse enemies even on regular attacks (The charged attack is heavily discouraged by a long charge time and the chance to Curse the wielder as well).

The Brandish series can't inflict status effects on normal hits, only on its semi-random charged attack. And if you get swarmed with a Brandish, you can't knock the foes away easily-- the charged attack doesn't have the knockback that even the Calibur line does.

Proper Sealed-Sword-ing requires knowing when to throw out single-swings and then shield-canceling, not just running berserk with the weapon. This kills regular monsters SLOWER than 3-swing swords, but Faust's Curse and Divine Avenger's charged attack are there for you when you're up against some really problematic foes.

Fri, 06/17/2011 - 10:16
#3
siopao
Legacy Username
if that guy was doing more

if that guy was doing more damage than you were, he probably has damage buffs on armor (wolver/skolver set) or the weapon itself (vs contruct UV).

ive got faust (4* lvl 10) and combuster(5* lvl 3) and on t2 and t3, my faust hits for something like 120-150% the damage (depending on if its the first or second swing) of my combuster on enemies weak to their respective damage types. the combuster still does more damage (around 20-50% more?) for the full combo than the faust (and probably also granfaust).

i have to disagree and say that sealed sword line is AWESOME. you are pretty much invincible if you use the sealed sword line correctly. the knockback, reach and swing arc means you can keep anything off your back if you play it right. know when to use the full combo, when to just swing once to get a bit of breathing room and shield cancel to get both swings for a fraction of the recovery time.

and curse on the faust is actually really good since it only hits you if you charge attack, and you have a chance to curse with EVERY SWING.

edit: wow 2 other guys beat me to it...

ps: i suggest granfaust + combuster/glacius as the combo of choice. that way you have curse AND fire/ice in your arsenal. faust IMO is better vs JK since curse adds SOO much dps and fire/ice is great utility for charge kiting mechknight balls in the arena. the fact that it doesnt slow you down when you charge makes it all that safer to charge kite with.

Fri, 06/17/2011 - 12:41
#4
isuspodbara
Legacy Username
I've run some testings

I've run some testings comparing nightblade vs gran faust ay jelly palace. They were both lvl 10, and both had medium dmg boost from shield. Here are some hard numbers ( they are all hits on jelly cubes ):

3* Nightblade D15 - 121 - 121 - 156
D16 - 129 - 129 - 159

5* Gran Faust D15 - 156 - 202
D16 - 163 - 208

As you can see nightblade in fact does more dmg in combo than faust. I am curious about Silent Nightblade numbers in comparison with Nightblade in same circumstances.

Fri, 06/17/2011 - 12:56
#5
Malyce
Legacy Username
I believe the game's design

I believe the game's design philosophy is to make all weapons reasonable choices. Having more weapons gives you more options. Given that people think faust/avenger are some of the most powerful weapons today, raising their damage further doesn't seem like a good balancing choice. They seem a bit weak to me, but I prefer faster weapons.

Fri, 06/17/2011 - 13:16
#6
Gigafreak
Legacy Username
Nightblade can't inflict any

Nightblade can't inflict any status effect though (certainly not one as powerful as Curse), and has no good means of knockback. That's what you're trading off for the increased direct damage.

I'd personally feel more comfortable with the Nightblade, but I cannot say it is "just better" than the Faust, especially when you see how much damage Curse can inflict. Curse'll ruin the Royal Jelly's day, and if you manage to land a Curse on it, you can afford to spend the next 30 seconds running away-- Curse will keep doing its damage. The Nightblade requires you to stay on the target to keep dealing your damage, which is obviously not a very safe idea against the Royal Jelly.

Fri, 06/17/2011 - 18:38
#7
siopao
Legacy Username
@isuspodbara - there is a

@isuspodbara -
there is a damage cap on higher star gear on the lower levels. the difference in damage between a faust and gran faust at that depth is something like 10 or 20 damage a hit. if you want accurate damage testing between 3 and 5* weapons, you need to be atleast past the t3 terminal (d24?).

Fri, 06/17/2011 - 19:48
#8
crimsonsteel
Legacy Username
ok i cbf reading everysingle

ok i cbf reading everysingle one of you posts to be honest, so forgive me if i get it a little wrong.
HOWEVER, all of you seem to be talking about knockback and curse, which while true, are the main reasons for getting sealed sword line, OFTEN dont help - curse rarely ever activates and often knockback, for me, doesnt knockback far enough, both hits knock a jelly JUST to the edge of its range, when it then will attack, and do the damage to me.

i also said both weapons were lv10, Avenger and Blizzbrand, both 4* - non UV so quit argueing over that.

Anyway, was just going over some screencaps of it, and although he seemed to be a knowledgeable player - (i even asked him if he had any UVs or damage bonuses vs constructs - he said "no"), just noticed hes wearing a wolvercap and coat (extra 13% sword damage which would roughly - not exactly - explain the 30ish damage).

im a pretty annoying player to play with, ill warrant that, almost always asking if person knows how to defeat jelly king properly, why they wasted a good curse pot etcetc, but not knowing the bonuses of your equips ? come on..

still, i do believe faust is underpowered considering its slow hitrate, 2 hit combo, and -rare- chance of cursing enemies (which is offset by the fact it can curse and kill you) - same goes for the avenger line, if not more so, which was the point of this post - it cant curse, which is what a lot of you are so hung up about.

and cursing JK and running off for 30seconds? sometimes when he does tantrums, his status debuffs are removed, by the time you curse him, a lucky moment, hes probly close to death anyway if you kept the poison pots up.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 01:26
#9
jooozek
Legacy Username
Faust is underpowered?

Faust is underpowered? hahahahahaha
Avenger too? heuaheuaheuaheuaehuaeha

jeuiajeuhaueahueaheuaheuaheauea aeeha eau haueheahu

sorry but you cant be serious

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 02:20
#10
ZealousD
Legacy Username
Walk into FSC with a Divine

Walk into FSC with a Divine Avenger and a Combuster/Glacius.

You'll pick the DA every time. The knockback is a huge part of the sword. And the charge attack is amazing enough to almost be a replacement for a bomb in certain situations.

Something else not being taken into account is that Avenger/Faust have a wider damage radius. You're so focused on single target damage that you're forgetting that the sealed swords can hit more targets at the same time.

@Gigafreak If we're talking about Royal Jelly, you should be carrying curse potions and not rely on faust to do that work for you. Also, his tantrum removes curse only the first time he does it. Any subsequent tantrums will not remove a curse.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 02:19
#11
crimsonsteel
Legacy Username
not saying its underpowered,

not saying its underpowered, im saying compared to a weapon that not only hits faster, and does MORE hits, the faust/avenger does maginally less damage which is odd. all the avenger and faust have going for them in that cicumstance is an average knockback, which is offset by a very long recovery period. the faust has curse, which is offset by 1. its low probability of happening, and 2. that it can curse you, and kill you.

the 4* version blizzbrand/silent nightblade hits 3 times, is faster, has a better charge damage attack, doesnt curse yourself, lets you shield right after combo, does slightly more damage than the weapon equvilant (bliz to avenger, silent to faust) and etc. you tell me how it isnt considerably "underpowered" considering its a slow hitting sword and yet is still being outclassed by a more available sword?

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 02:22
#12
ZealousD
Legacy Username
They do marginally less

They do marginally less damage because they hit more targets and have a knockback.

If sealed swords did more single target dps than the brandishes there'd be no reason for the brandishes to exist.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 02:41
#13
Fauxanadu
Legacy Username
I'm going to go with: They

I'm going to go with: They either had a UV or gear that boosts damage

As has already been pointed out, each has their own pros and cons. I usually pack an Acheron and a Gran Faust with me when I run JK (overkill you say?). Acheron charge+gran faust's 2 swings kills any slime, and in some situations I like the knockback, and in others I like the acheron charge.

The Acheron (or any brandish line) is great for its usable charge attack and the fact that it is perfect for kiting. Gran Faust/Divine Avenger are better for the single hit damage (important in T3) and knockback (also important in t3). Plus, Divine Avenger's charge is incredible.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 04:23
#14
Littlerocketman's picture
Littlerocketman
the sealed sword line is good

the sealed sword line is good to keep the wielder alive (assuming your not cursed by faust), while keeping a competitive damage rate on mobs of monsters. the brandish line is just fast paced slaughter on single targets, but will lead to almost certain death if surrounded by lots of monters.so i would choose using the sealed sword line anytime if it means keeping me alive and saving my precious energy XD

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 06:25
#15
siopao
Legacy Username
if you like the gameplay of

if you like the gameplay of brandish line more tho i pretty much cant argue with that. to each his own i guess. but i have to agree with zealous, id pretty much always choose sealedsword over brandish line if you go into some of the more dangerous strata.

on a side note, i actually LOVE spamming charge attacks with my faust. guess it tickles the gambler in me. and besides, its almost always correct to do a charge on a giga lichen or alpha wolver since you have something like a 50% x4 chance to curse them with a full on hit. you could be forced to switch to a secondary weapon for something like 30 seconds if you get cursed, but auto killing some of the more dangerous mobs is a fine trade for being forced to switch to my sidearm.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 10:57
#16
Gigafreak
Legacy Username
"both hits knock a jelly JUST

"both hits knock a jelly JUST to the edge of its range, when it then will attack, and do the damage to me."

Don't use both hits. Swing once and shield-cancel. You can't shield cancel out of the combo finisher early enough to block the counterattack.

Of course the Brandish series doesn't get any means of knockback at all... so that's even worse.

This goes with 3-swing swords too. If you use all three swings on, for example, a later-tier zombie, it'll hit you back after each combo because there's too much downtime after the combo finisher, and later-tier enemies require stronger impacts to stagger them than earlier-tier ones. Shield-cancel before the combo finisher.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 11:30
#17
gell
Legacy Username
I'm going to counter-suggest

I'm going to counter-suggest that you actually DO use both hits, because you're doing it wrong. I almost always use both hits on jellies, and they get torn up by my faust. Speeds can vary based on gear, but mainly, if you are getting to the 2nd swing too soon, then pause for a split second to let the jelly go toward you, because it will. You also move forward a little if you hold toward the direction of the enemy, so that would help. Combine that with the aforementioned slight pause after the first swing, and that 2nd swing can hit just fine (could kill the jelly on the 2nd hit, depending on depth and if you're on faust or GF). Faster than shield canceling 3 swings, where you waste time walking toward the enemy anyway. Just position yourself properly so the jelly is not out of range. I do it all the time!

Others have mentioned the safety of the knockback, but no one really talked about the number of enemies you can hit with the sealed sword/troika line. The arc hits about 180 degrees, and can destroy a large mob. Happens a lot in the Royal Jelly Palace, even more so if you do a little herding. Herd, herd, kill 6 jellies in one THWACK. You are not going to do that with any brandish. DPS get.

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 03:10
#18
crimsonsteel
Legacy Username
Gell, at the risk of making

Gell, at the risk of making myself appear noob once more, im going to say that is an amazing piece of advice. ive never really considered holding off second hit for a half second. works wonders.

ANYWAY, i did a silent nightblade / faust comparison about an hour ago, the guy was doing about 45~ damage above me, but he had "v high" damage to slime, combined stats, which narrowed it down to about just under fausts power per hit (alas more power still per combo)

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 05:50
#19
siopao
Legacy Username
two hitting may be effective

two hitting may be effective against a small group, but youve gotta be careful with larger mobs aggroing you. the arc isnt large enough to cover the entire 360 degrees and ou can get backstabbed, especially in the higher tiers since the enemies there have attack patterns that allow them to get right beside you.

sealed sword doesnt need to be a dps weapon. its got the highest per (first) hit weapon, but thats really all youre gonna need. swing cancel swing is MUCH safer, and pretty much finishes the opponent off in around the same number of combos (and by combo on SS, i mean shield canceling).

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 15:10
#20
Tenkii's picture
Tenkii
Similar notion and Heavy sword tricks!

I've had similar feelings before, partly from tests I did Calibur vs Troika way back, and also comparing my performance with some of my friends', but as I found, Calibur did more DPS vs single enemies and Troika did more DPS vs masses of enemies. The width and range of the slashes really says it all.

"Slow" is in the eye of the beholder. Brandish is just fast. Slow? The Troika line (Khorovod) is slow, and I rarely ever get to safely use its second swing and it gets outdamaged by everything else on my team. The Faust/Avenger are so much safer.

Honestly I feel the heavy swords have much more of a utility role, and that's vs large groups. It would be nice for the heavy swords to do more damage, but as gell said, the DPS is really best when you can herd a bunch of enemies together. I use curse resist armor so I use GF's charge attack pretty liberally. As far as its charge attack, its initial hit does a bunch of damage while comboing into the flying sword's multi-hits (gives more chances to curse while pushing the enemies away!). This has ultimately different utility than the brandish line's charge attack.
----
Somewhat related, but... I actually came across a bunch of tricks with the slower swords on my own too, including the shield-cancel first slash thing.
- Avenger/GF's charge attacks' post lag can also be cancelled by shield.
- To avoid wasting a 'missed' first slash to charge, hold shield and then attack. After about a half a second, release shield. You'll go into charge all the while being able to move. If it doesn't work,
- On the 'delayed second slash' thing, if you hold attack (as if you're charging), the charge animation also cancels the lag. If you release early enough, you can still go into second swing. Essentially, this means you can step 2 squares in a direction before releasing - you can "extend" your chase range, or retreat and do a counter swing at the same area.

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