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Balancing mixmaster/orbitgun

6 replies [Last post]
Wed, 09/28/2016 - 15:57
Fangel's picture
Fangel

Recently I came into contact with an orbit gun, because I really wanted one and a friend kept taking loans out from me and paying me back in energy so I had a bunch laying around. There's a lot to be said about the gun, and some "theoretical bits" I'd come up with in the past are a mixture of true and false in action.

Before I begin, let me explain a bit of mechanics behind the orbit gun:

    Upon firing:
  • Shoots an entity that moves 7 or so tiles in front of the player
  • Entity is server-side only, meaning you get no "predictive bullet" that moves slower. Instead, your attack is delayed
  • Bullet logic:

  • Entity is orbited by 2 single-hit barrier orbitals
  • Note: this gun has a 3 shot clip, meaning 6 projectiles per clip. Yeah...

  • Entity must exist for orbitals to exist - if the entity comes in contact with a wall, barrier, block, etc. the orbitals will disappear with it
  • Entity is floating, and can cross gaps. As an entity, it will automatically adjust to the "walking" elevation. This means firing off the side of a level will make the bullet seemingly disappear, but it simply is on the "ground level"
  • As an entity, bullets can go up and down slopes, such as stairs, without hitting the slope and exploding
  • Since the gun shoots an "entity", enemies do not dodge, because there is no projectile
  • Orbitals have same damage table as alchemer lines
  • Upon reaching the 7 tiles, entity will "walk" towards the player for another 7 tiles, tracking their movements
  • ^ This is the reason the gun shoots an entity in the first place. Bullet do not have "AI" built into them. This "bullet" tracks the player, so it needs its own AI.



Now, let's get to some fixes eh?

The orbit gun currently deals the same damage as an alchemer. Alchemers deal massive damage by nature, but are limited to their 2 shot clip. Alchemers do as much damage per clip that orbit gun does per shot. It's essentially switchshooting for you. No matter how I fix this, the first step will always be a reduction in damage. Personally, I believe damage tables equal to an unexpanded pulsar shot would be fair.

An alternative fix to straight up damage reduction is going down the pulsar route. Have the orbitals deal reduced damage upon being fired, but when returning to the player they deal current (or increased) damage. Unexpanded pulsar damage for the going, and current damage for the return would work best, but taking the pulsar's damage table would work with this change.

Orbit gun's use of an entity prevents enemies from reacting to its bullets. If there's a "projectile classification" tag, it needs to be applied to this entity, otherwise such a tag needs to be made. This tag could then be applied to rocket puppy's homing rockets (which are also entities), which would cause enemies to act more dynamically around those.

Lastly, the big one: acquisition.
This type of weapon is the rarest, most unique, and honestly one of the most fun weapons I've ever gotten my hands on. Other than the "rarest" bit, the only other weapon to come close to that description has been the warmaster rocket hammer. The warmaster rocket hammer is fun, powerful, and has a similar but different playstyle ingrained in it.
But the rocket hammer is locked off, not by a rarity wall, but by a reasonable paywall.

A new expansion mission would be the best possible time to introduce these weapons into the masses. This would keep it as off-limits initially, but those who are dedicated to the game would happily dish out a few bucks to get their hands on an awesome weapon (along with new content, that's a big factor too).

Thu, 09/29/2016 - 15:49
#1
Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

This logic bothers me-

"The orbit gun currently deals the same damage as an alchemer. Alchemers deal massive damage by nature, but are limited to their 2 shot clip. Alchemers do as much damage per clip that orbit gun does per shot. It's essentially switchshooting for you. No matter how I fix this, the first step will always be a reduction in damage. Personally, I believe damage tables equal to an unexpanded pulsar shot would be fair."

Alchemers have an amazing charge (which potentially out-damages brandish charges) that makes up for their relative lack of damage, which is again made up for by switch shooting at the expense of a weapon slot. Mixmaster/Orbitgun on the other hand are the same as switch shooting, but lack this amazing charge, and instead have just an OK charge that functions in a more defensive, less powerful, way. Newer players would be MUCH better off with a mixmaster. Experienced players can make good use of the driver charge and switchshooting factors, to gain even higher advantages.

--------------------------------

As for an expansion mission, I'm not so sure. The issue with expansions is that only a fraction of the players can play them, the rest being paywalled out. This means that when you do buy the mission, your friends and buddies can't join you... but also that the developers don't make new levels, or haven't yet. Since the weapons are 5* only and currently rarer than water on the face of the sun perhaps it would be best to just put them on the featured auctions like scissor blades, seeing as to that scissor blades are getting kind of old? Maybe take scissor blades off for a couple years?

Fri, 09/30/2016 - 12:12
#2
Fangel's picture
Fangel
ehhh

When I compare the guns, I'm doing to to showcase how grossly unfair it is that orbit gun deals so much damage.

With an orbit gun, you are switchshooting by default. Now imagine switchshooting these weapons. Now you deal twice the damage to a skilled alchemer player, and they output crazy amounts of damage as is.

What I get at with the "reduction" in damage bit is the fact that the gun is too powerful with its standard attack. It fires as many bullets as an antigua (a light weapon) in the time of a blaster (a medium weapon) with the damage of an alchemer (a heavy weapon). If it was as many bullets as an antigua in the time of a blaster with the damage of an unexpanded pulsar shot, it would still deal massive damage, but it wouldn't be competing with a heavy weapon.
Currently, the only reason to take alchemers over an orbit gun is the charge attack. In the time I could use a charge attack to kill a lumber, I could shoot a clip or two into it and kill it. The orbit gun standard attack is competing with a very difficult to master charge attack. That is bad.

The issue with expansions is that only a fraction of the players can play them, the rest being paywalled out.
That is currently the biggest issue with mixmaster/orbit gun - a fraction of the players can get them, the rest is paywalled out. This changes nothing about the current state of the gun, other than making it actually a more common gun since coughing up $6 or 3200 energy will get you the gun and all the levels and other bits of gear included.

Yes, putting the guns on featured auctions would help. No, that would not be enough to make this gun suddenly be okay. This weapon should be as common as the rocket hammer, at least after action is taken to make the weapon not so dreadfully OP.

Fri, 09/30/2016 - 14:27
#3
Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

If it gets a damage nerf it'll just be a clumsier (albeit cooler) version of argent peacemaker that has status though... and that kind of kills it.

I talked to others with the gun and think that I'm just really practiced with alchemers, which would explain why they feel so balanced to me. How would you feel about giving it a clip size of two instead of three and increasing its range + bullet lifespan, as well as making the bullets a bit tighter? Possibly also a longer lifespan on the charge, as if the bullets are protecting you. That way it'll be more skill based and less spam based.. but also less of an upgrade from alchemers.

Fri, 09/30/2016 - 15:55
#4
Fangel's picture
Fangel
That works

There's plenty of fixes that could make it work better. Honestly I think the lower damage on the send (unexpanded pulsar) but current or increased damage on the return (alchemer or expanded pulsar) would turn it into a really skill based gun rather than just another "shoot at enemy, kill enemy" gun.

I use alchemers as well. Taking out lumbers with a single charge is something I just do. However, I'm someone who is very critical of the main attack of a weapon, and in its current state orbit gun/mixmaster dish out extremely high damage. Alchemers do very little damage if you shoot, shoot, reload.

The biggest thing I want to avoid with fixes, however, is killing the gun's "fun factor". This gun is probably one of the most fun guns I have ever experienced. Making the boomerang bullets deal less on fire but more on return would make the gun significantly more balanced. It also doesn't take up the same role as alchemers - instead, it becomes a pulsar/alchemer hybrid. You can still unload in enemies faces, but for reduced damage. The sheer number of bullets, however, will still dish out fair or borderline OP damage. Aiming your shots around enemies so that they boomerang back for more damage would turn the gun from a spam weapon to a calculated weapon.

Essentially, I believe the orbit gun style of weapon should be the rocket hammer of guns - something extremely powerful in the right hands, but something iffy but still decent in the wrong hands. Currently, alchemers are sort of this role, however they aren't "iffy but decent" for newcomers - they're downright awful.

Fri, 09/30/2016 - 16:41
#5
Petater's picture
Petater

Meanwhile enemies don't strafe in-flight mixer bullets, so you can kill robots that have shields without them ever shielding.

Fri, 09/30/2016 - 19:36
#6
Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

"I believe the orbit gun style of weapon should be the rocket hammer of guns - something extremely powerful in the right hands, but something iffy but still decent in the wrong hands."

To be honest that should be the golden standard for all weapons. Right now the issue for me is less the balance (as both are about at the same power level when it comes down to it- 2 shots per shot vs 2-3 hits per shot) but the balancing ease of use with power- mixmaster does the same or more for less work than the alchemers. Hence, the lengthened range and shot duration. Those are the variables that would enable mixmaster to do crazy and fun things.

@petater

Fangel covered that in the OP and I agree with it, so it hasn't come up.

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