Spiral Knights - My take on the whole grinding thing.

My take on the whole grinding thing.

8 replies [Last post]

Mon, 11/14/2016 - 22:50

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

Consider the following fraction:

Time Spent / Content Played

At the start of the game this fraction is relatively low. You play for 5 minutes and it's solid story. As the game progresses, this fraction gets larger and larger as the player is required to grind more and more to make it onward and see more of the game. If you were to graph this as a function of time, it would look something like this, where it quickly escalates to higher numbers and peters off, leaving the player with the dreaded grind in question.

There are two types of points on this curve. The first is the curve itself- the gameplay itself, the level design, the variety, how the player feels as they go through levels. The second are what I think of as spikes- that big moment when Arkus talks to you and it's all awesome, or when you fight a unique boss like Vanaduke or the ice queen.

The problem with spikes is that they don't last and they make the moment to moment gameplay feel drab in comparison. The devilites before Arkus feel very routine because that level has been used a dozen times before. Arkus himself is then only in that one scenario.. he took dev hours and effectively bottled them up for that one moment.

When the game first came out, it had very few spikes and A LOT of just basic gameplay. This works well because it's what motivates the player to play- when you go out to grind you have variety. You enjoy it, because it's what the game is about. When you have more of this, Arkus can wait, because there's plenty of content to see and do in the mean time.

The key to making people happy is making the grind happy.

The secret to getting this back is to regularly make and release levels. You wouldn't skip a promotion for money, because that would hurt business. Similarly, you shouldn't skip a new level release because that would hurt grinding, which in turn hurts the game which in turn hurts business.

There are a lot of unused or little used mechanics, like gravity blocks, explosives that contain jelly bombs, etc. and these things are excellent tools that can be used to add new and interesting areas for players to grind in. There are a lot of smaller ideas, like alternate boss levels (think a new D26 for FSC) or more danger rooms that can be implemented as well. Moving danger missions down a few depths to make a place for vanguards to grind radiants. These are the things that would alleviate the "bad rates of orb drops", without speeding up the game.

Thanks for reading,
Fehzor.

Tue, 11/15/2016 - 05:37

Sapphyrus

You have some pretty good

You have some pretty good ideas in regards to keeping the grinding somewhat fresh, but I do still think drop rates will play a big role as well into making players feel like they are progressing.

I like the ideas on new levels coming out, but it'd get kinda old pretty fast too. GH doesn't have (or doesn't seem to have) that kinda time anymore with what they said they are working out to be implementing new levels every single patch. In the meantime while they are working on other things, we might as well test some drop rate changes and see player response to it.

Tue, 11/15/2016 - 15:22

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

Well that's a large part of the issue itself actually and I did cut the OP short because I didn't think people would read it all if I didn't. Grey Havens tend to do things BIG and professional when the trend and what I'd like to see is small and casual. For example, compounds introduced 3 new enemy types, a new level archetype and hundreds of small level segments. Of course they can't pump that out every month and I don't expect them to! That's the BIG way of doing things.

The small way would be to make say, an altered version of the Royal Jelly Palace. It's getting colder but not quite Ice Queen cold, and it's happening in T3. Suddenly, there's a new area for players to farm and it cost you maybe, a couple of days of altering the levels, a couple of days of testing. All things an unpaid intern can do, even. Will this new area get old at some point? Undoubtedly so, but it's a drop in the bucket for new players grinding, it's an alternate area for when everything gets old, and next month you release something else anyway for the players to get pumped over. That's the small way.

Tue, 11/15/2016 - 15:40

Bopp

the fundamental point

I agree with the fundamental point, that you can't thrill players every day (the spikes), but maybe you can modestly please players every day (better grind).

Tue, 11/15/2016 - 16:05

Jessecho

+1, and my opinion

Exactly, this is what we've been missing for basically the whole time the game has been open. The last new maps were the Vanguard missions, a year and a half ago, and those weren't really what I'd call worth the wait. The only full level addition we've had for the Arcade were Compounds in 2013; they're avoided like the plague because they aren't fun and pay jack squat compared to the same levels we've been playing for years.

With the rich story and universe that SK has, there's so much potential for new levels and mechanics to be added in, and they've done little more than scratch the surface of new ideas to improve the game. Use this stuff already, GH. Have a level where we make a dimensional jump to the Underworld and have to face off with the Legion of Ur, see what their home is like, which opens the door for tons of new content and gameplay mechanics. Since it's another dimension we're going to, they could explore a lot of ideas for the art direction of the maps. Put us at the crash site of the meteor that carried the Lichens, ala the Impact Crater from Metroid Prime. You could build a lot of new lore off this one thing, maybe the planet the Lichens landed on was full of life before they came. We'd find evidence of life and civilization throughout the level, one or two codexes to read that give some story, so we could piece together what happened there ourselves. The boss could be extra grotesque-looking and sounding, and have some new gameplay mechanic as one of its abilities or the way you defeat it, instead of being more of the same like Herex was.

The new levels don't even need to be that complicated, as long as they're fun and appealing, pay decent loot compared to other maps, and have original themes and ties to the story, I'd be happy to play them. Big stuff like that would probably only come once or twice a year, while we get more medium-sized things more often. The Arcade needs love too; what I described in the last paragraph would be better for missions or fixed stratum levels. We've had all the same levels and the same routine there since the game first opened. If the Arcade had as much unique story and gameplay content as missions did, I guarantee more people would play it. It's one of the main pillars of the lore, the ever-changing, unpredictable Clockworks, and it usually just gets ignored, or speedrun through to get to the D27 and 28 Arenas faster.

That's just what I think. Whether GH likes it or not, there are big problems with the way the game is set up, and it needs to change soon.

Wed, 11/16/2016 - 13:25

Abelisk

Or maybe just don't influence grinding at all.

I am playing another MMO and have never needed to grind ever.

What SK needs is a lot of content. There doesn't just need to be the Clockworks and the Coliseum. What about a boss rush with extremely hard bosses for end gamers? SK needs new types of gameplay.

Also, crowns. The way to obtain crowns is atrocious.

What Lockdown needs are reward tracks and leagues. With this, we need everyone to have the same gear.

Perhaps add new gameplay styles to gain crowns. The Apocrea event is new type of gameplay but it gets boring very quickly.

I like SKs boss fights but we need way more.

Yada yada

Wed, 11/16/2016 - 13:35

Fangel

hmm

I think what I'd like is to implement more organic gameplay in more places. Such as, in fiend and undead levels, have a chance any explosive block will be replaced by a gravity block. In any slime/beast level, have explosive blocks have a chance to be replaced by the other variant of explosive blocks that throw explosive jelly everywhere. In gremlin/construct levels, have unbreakable blocks have a chance to be replaced by misery blocks.

Scenario rooms already make the arcade more organic. They only show up in the arcade, at certain depths, for certain levels. Many players will never come across many of these scenario rooms simply due to only running certain levels and depths (ie, not knowing about snipe gardens spawning in wolver dens, or the freezer scenario room in freeze clockwork tunnels).

This all said and done however... There simply isn't enough randomization in certain levels. They follow a formula that can easily get boring. That is... Everything except clockwork tunnels. Danger rooms make all the difference when a level is otherwise boring. It gives difficult content. It gives rewarding content. It lets you feel like you're genuinely exploring. Since they're random, you want to seek them out, and they won't be in every depth but they'll be around.

So, personally, I think adding danger rooms into more level generation would allow for more exploration and replayability. From there, I think more common room generation can be added into the mix with newer puzzle elements, such as those introduced in the vanguard missions and march of the tortodrones.

But if we're talking about making the grind fun (rather than making the fun rewarding), then I would say add a new arcade gate into the rotation, and have the core open in it. You go beyond depth 29 and into the core, potentially entering an unknown passage, instead of the D29 terminal. Create more core level types (clockwork tunnels is the obvious current theme. We could take scarlet fortress or candlestick keep as inspiration as well and make core levels similar in gameplay to those), then give us 4 core levels before a gauntlet-styled ending, followed by an expansive loot room. I'd change it so that all boxes in these levels could drop rarities and consumables, therefore making the levels more fun and rewarding while still remaining difficult.

Thu, 11/17/2016 - 15:06

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

I'm glad many of you like my post, and I'm glad that this thread has gotten serious discussion in it. Threads like "I am so pissed off right now" are valuable in that they show us how players are feeling, but don't foster the kind of discussion I personally would like to see come out of the forums.

Generally speaking you all have the right idea though, even Anderson, somehow. Updates ought to be like story arcs in a book- lots of small points added (like levels, or little bits of organic gameplay) leading up to larger updates, like Fangel's core idea or Jessecho's dimensional jump to the underworld.

Thu, 11/17/2016 - 15:27

Fangel

agreed

The updates to compounds, wolver dens, and clockwork tunnels surrounding the introduction of March of the Tortodrones was fantastic. It really rewarded exploration, and the rooms introduced are still really neat to come across now-a-days.

I would prefer new paths in general, but scenario rooms scratch an itch to see something new for a while.

Search

My take on the whole grinding thing.