Forums › English Language Forums › General › General Discussion

Search

Why didn't Three Rings ever balance gear?

20 replies [Last post]
Tue, 04/11/2017 - 20:01
Kimahsonite's picture
Kimahsonite

I started playing in I think 2010 or so and haven't played for about 3 years so it's been a while. I've had extremely fond memories of the game although I eventually got bored/frustrated with some aspects of the game.

Anyways, I'm just wondering why Three Rings or whoever balanced the game never bothered to balance the gear. Some weapons and armour combinations are blatantly superior to others, for example I remember loving my weapon the "Wild Hunting Blade" but it was always shit compared to the "Flourish" against beast types (although the Wild Hunting Blade was meant to be specialised against beast types). In fact it was probably the worst weapon in the game. And there's also the chaos set being outright stronger than the mad bomber set. And tons of other instances of horrible balance which I can't even remember.

I think if Gray Havens focused on balancing the gear (it can't be harder than simply changing numbers?) then Spiral Knights would be in a better spot than it is now.

Wed, 04/12/2017 - 08:29
#1
Bopp's picture
Bopp
agree

Yes, the equipment needs lots of balancing. Balancing would make the game more attractive to gamers, although it alone would not be sufficient to make Spiral Knights popular.

The main problem is that new items tend to be more powerful than old items, and the old items are not updated enough. For example, WHB's damage bonus hasn't been changed since the game launched. Damage bonuses were much harder to get then, so it was somewhat valuable then. But now we have so many sources of damage bonus, including Black Kat and Chaos, that they swamp WHB's bonus for any experienced player.

By the way, if you started playing in 2010, then you started playing during the beta period. Which is long before Flourish-type swords were introduced. I'm guessing that you started playing in 2011 or later. But that doesn't change your point.

Sat, 04/15/2017 - 10:47
#2
Astralsord's picture
Astralsord
yah

same thing as CIV i believe the story behind its usles dmg bonus (i heard the same thing from everyone) when the game started out as bopp said dmg bonuses where hard to get so its high(or very high if your lucky) only encrees your dmg by a tiny teeny bit i believe its around 20dmg for very high

Tue, 04/18/2017 - 04:21
#3
Drischa's picture
Drischa

Many people wonder about the questionable balance and weapon design in the game. It would be very interesting to know why these weren't changed.

If you compare to a game like Overwatch, where they go through great lengths to ensure all the characters are viable but balanced (Taking a look at how they overhauled symettra and bastion, giving them much more defined roles in a team) It seems rather odd that so much in spiral knights remains unchanged despite clearly being an issue.

I hope that going forwards Grey Havens will address these issues that Three Rings did not, and perhaps shed some light on why they have gone unchanged for so long.

Of course, it's much more likely that they will remain silent and leave the game as it is, which is fine too.

Sun, 04/30/2017 - 21:02
#4
Ralvurahva's picture
Ralvurahva
Balancing isnt as important in MMOs than in MOBA-like games

It would be nice to see more balance, but SK is in a delicate position regarding that: Nerfing Chaos or Black Kat would cause rage, and topping them would worsen the problem. Buffing other sets would only make the game easier, which is not something most players want. Im more concerned about having more weapons/more balanced weapons (IE a fun gun that is not incredibly weaker than Blitz Needle, a good damage-oriented bomb that isnt Dark Retribution) and new monsters/more monster moves/better monster AI.

Sun, 04/30/2017 - 21:41
#5
Nebrium's picture
Nebrium
...

too hard, pay them six figures.

Mon, 05/01/2017 - 20:51
#6
Fangel's picture
Fangel
to be honest

To be fair, nerfing black kat and chaos would be pretty alright by most players so long as they retain some form of desirability. Nerfing black kat's damage to a universal medium makes it more in-line with chaos, and nerfing either chaos' damage or charge time reduction to low would work for it - either that or add charge time increase on bombs with chaos to give mad bomber some relevance.

Choosing between CTR and MSI would be a more meaningful choice as it showcases two entirely different playstyles.

Mon, 05/01/2017 - 22:40
#7
Ralvurahva's picture
Ralvurahva
asdasdasd

Man, I wish SL gear was actually useful. Buffing those would even give players an incentive to buy energy.

Edit: Wow, did I just contradic myself? No, really, I wish the game could be harder AND SL sets better.

Tue, 05/02/2017 - 07:38
#8
Poothis's picture
Poothis
SL Armors?

At the very least SL armor looks good and that's good enough of a reason for me to get them.

Fri, 05/12/2017 - 02:41
#9
Kimahsonite's picture
Kimahsonite
@Bopp Haha I still remember

@Bopp Haha I still remember you being active on the forums (and I think wiki?) way back in 2011 or so. Yeah I actually joined right before Snarbolax got released.

@Ralvurahva I can't believe that it's that hard to increase the damage numbers of the cutter line for example? And there's no way it would be overpowered even with these buffs, it would just become viable. So not it's not a case of 'delicate' balance. And like I said there's way more really weak gear which I can't remember anymore.

Tue, 06/06/2017 - 07:52
#10
Triplescrew's picture
Triplescrew
Yeah....Balance would be great.

I would love to see shields properly split into families and balanced. Like : light, medium, heavy, torto.

Light shields are those small round ones ( Swiftstrike, Surge breaker and such). They should have low protection, FAST shield-walking speed, And also should apply Status on Bash (For Breaker family. Since they are very status oriented).

Medium shields are those popular Crest of Almire and Owlite, Snarbo and Jelly and such. These stay as they are.

Heavy shield are those Ironmight, Volcanic, Ancient, Omega and such. These have slowest shield-walk speed, but should be MUCH more protective than medium ones. Also, Elemental and Shadow shields are needed.

Tortos are heavy subclass. Stronger bash should be compensated with a bit lower defences that heavy shields.

I just dont like how weapons all have different movesets and gameplay, but shields feel exactly same.

Also, why Wolver armor protects against piercing? Wolvers are weak to it. I dont get it. It should totally be Elem armor. Now that we have Padded armors.

You might think : "But that will make those who already have Wolver armors upset!". Roll a script with free armor sets for those affected and you are safe. Thats what happens in Warframe and they are doing great afaik. Changes are always welcome when they are done right.

Tue, 06/06/2017 - 16:09
#11
Zincamania-Forum
There's no need to balance

There's no need to balance armor as much as it's needed for weapons. The only OP armor in the game is Black Kat, because it still has a +4 status resist on top of its insane stats. That doesn't mean it needs to lose that freeze resist. In fact, I don't think it would be wise to change any base stats on armor sets that touch the Defense types or Status resistances. Doing so can completely ruin someones UVs on a piece of gear, that they spent a lot of crowns on to get. The only things that could be considered changing is the extra stat boosts that armors give, but it's not really necessary.

What they need to do instead, is making levels that are fair to each armor set. Chaos and BK both have drawbacks with low defense and status resistance penalties. The problem is, the hardest levels in the game get their difficulty from multiple enemy (=damage types), while status is very limited. Grinchlin assault has all damage types spread across the mission. Why would you pick a snarbolax set with 2 Shadow Max UVs to be very strong against shadow damage, when shadow is only 1 of the 3 damage types you'll encouter on that mission? Might as well pick a Black Kat set which has much lower defense than shadow max Snarbolax, but better offense. Same thing goes for Status resistance... There's no reason not to pick Chaos/Black Kat when there is barely any status in the mission (e.g. DaN).

Give us missions that focus on 1 damage type, so we can actually specialise. For example: I'd benefit from using my Skolver set with 2 Piercing Max UVs on a mission that has only slimes and beasts in it. Then give it a status theme that at least isn't freeze for once (so Black Kat isn't the dominant armor again), and make sure that at least 1 status type is highly prevalent throughout the mission. There can be 2 status types as well. Also throw in some minor/moderate status (currently it's almost exclusively strong status). C42 is a great example of how powerful status is to balance out the armor sets. Chaos is clearly inferior on C42 (and so is Black Kat, but I'm sure people still use it, more on that later), it's a lot better to go for fire+poison resist. And because the fire+poison from the oiler slimes is not Strong (but a special kind of moderate), you can actually be immune to a large part of the status in that mission (but you need +10 resist I think). That makes armors like a Snarbolax set with Fire Max UVs, Dragon Scale set, etc... great picks for this mission and chaos/Black Kat not so great.

So like I said, I believe Black Kat is probably still used by experienced players on C42, even though getting double immunity should be possible for them. The reason is OP weapons like Acheron. With a CTR VH on it, combined with Black Kat, you'll do so much damage and knockback that nothing else really matters. If Grey Havens decide to balance anything, it should be toning down OP weapons. Think about it, if endgame missions are more like C42 in terms of status, and focus on 1 specific damage type (e.g. just piercing), then armors with more defense will become more popular, while chaos/BK fall out of favor. This also means achieving max damage bonus will become much harder. If a mission has only 1-2 monster families, while max damage bonus is harder to reach... Then UVs that give damage bonus to a monster family will have more of a use. Same goes for Wild Hunting Blade's wolver bonus and the armor sets that provide damage bonus against a monster family (Arcane salamander could use a different damage bonus though).

tl;dr Design better missions (more status, less damage types/monster families) that allow (force?) Knights to specialise their gear, so defensive armors and speicialist armors (wolver, gunslinger, demo, etc) become preferred and BK/Chaos fall out of favor. Make sure to nerf some of the really OP weapons like Acheron to prevent Black Kat set still being dominant in missions that counter it, through sheer overpoweredness. No BK/Chaos means no max damage bonus on everything. No Max damage bonus on everything, while only 1-2 monster families per mission means damage boosts against specific monster families becomes more useful.

End result: a lot more variety in viable armor sets and UV combinations (improving the UV market, making it better for everyone). More variety in viable weapons and their UVs (monster damage UVs). Without requiring to change any core stats on items(only a nerf in numbers to weapons that have power to spare, but never changing damage types/defense types/status resistances etc) and therefore not upsetting anyone who has already crafted and rolled UVs on current items.

Tue, 06/06/2017 - 18:35
#12
Carbon-Jm's picture
Carbon-Jm
Massive +1 to Zin

Another thing that could be done is simply buff UVs and damage bonuses that are specific to a monster family. A Polaris with DMG vs Undead High + a BK does Max damage to Undead. Well, in that situation, if you had a Black Kat Raiment, the UV would be useless. Which is why the damage bonuses need to be separated into "specific to family bonuses" and "general bonuses." General bonuses could be toned down slightly, whereas "specific to family" bonuses (just gonna call them STFBs) would receive a massive buff. Let's use a Leviathan, a mock elemental Leviathan (*wink wink GH*), and a Cold Iron Vanquisher. Of the three, the CIV should do the most damage to Undead. Yes, more than a Voltedge. The Leviathan should do the least against Undead, unless it has an Undead High UV or better, and the clean mock Elemental Levi should do in betweeen, unless it too has a UV. This would massively incentivize UVs that aren't frickin' ASI or CTR.

Now, I know what you're saying. Well, there are a lot of holes in this I need to patch up, so I really don't know what you're saying. :/ Anyway, with the bonuses separated, you could only choose one of them. Say I have a CIV and a BKC. The CIV has DMG vs Undead High, but the BKC has DMG vs Everything High. With what I said earlier, this would make it OP versus Undead and decent against everything else. Well, you would have to choose between the bonuses. You could either have DMG vs Everything High, or DMG vs Undead High. Without the latter, the sword is useless, so you'd choose that, if you were running a level with a lot of Undead. Say you rolled an Undead High UV or better, then the Undead bonus would escalate from High to VH to Ultra to Max, as it would regularly.

"This all sounds overpowered!" Okay, that I knew you would say.

Yes, I did just suggest to make the CIV better for Undead than a Voltedge. I love my Voltedge. But here's the simple answer, increase the enemy hitpoints ever so slightly, so as to reward specialization and UVs, but not terribly punish charging in with a clean Voltedge. A clean Voltedge would still be good, but it wouldn't be as good as a CIV.

The repercussions?

Well, everyone starts buying up the previously ignored STFB weapons, and everyone seeks out UVs that they didn't before. BKC and Chaos and whatever remain viable and wonderful, but are not as good as specializing. Massive crown sink for UVs. A drop in CE prices (wait, crap, my money's in CE right now :P). BURST OF ACTIVITY AND CRAFTING. Alright, now to accommodate this new blast of alchemy, it would need to be easier. Saaaaay, a revamp of the forge system? Pretty please? *puppy eyes*

I hope all of this makes sense. I typically go on a tangent and word stuff weirdly sometimes and make things more complicated than they should be, so I can't do a TL;DR, just figure it out.

Thu, 06/08/2017 - 20:07
#13
Fangel's picture
Fangel
ehh

Thing about CIV is that it's a normal damage weapon. Normal damage weapons should be good VS anything, but if they're specialized they should be a bit less than a specialized damage sword to what it's good against and much better to what the specialized sword is bad against. CIV is bad since it's not good VS undead, and it's not good VS gremlins. Give it a high flinch rate, like the WHB, and you have a sword that's safe in a different way than leviathan blade.

Basically, we shouldn't make normal damage weapons with family bonuses better than specialized weapons since that's what you trade for effectiveness everywhere in the game. The problem is the damage for where it's supposed to be good isn't good either, so either making such weapons specialized damage or increasing their damage bonus would work pretty well.

Fri, 06/09/2017 - 00:30
#14
Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

When you type "ehh" in the subject line it makes people feel like trash. Don't do that.

Fri, 06/09/2017 - 12:43
#15
Cetren's picture
Cetren
Yes please!

Some weapons are armor deem just ridiculously OP. Almost to the point where there's, why in the world would I run that? To, why in the world would I not run that? It really is time for some balance changes, should be a priority for the team.

Thu, 07/06/2017 - 17:38
#16
Doomrunner
OW as an example for balance ain't too smart

@Drischa

OW is super imbalanced right now. Literally only dive is viable, and so only 7 or 8 heroes are viable right now. The meta is so stagnant and blizzard is handling OWL so poorly that many players are either retiring, or about to retire. So many teams and orgs have disbanded/left the team.

Fri, 07/07/2017 - 02:57
#17
Zincamania-Forum
@Doomrunner

Drischa used Overwatch to compare to Spiral Knights. In Overwatch at a casual level (PvE in SK), every hero is usable and has their strengths/weaknesses. You are talking about the pro competitive scene of overwatch, something SK doesn't even have. In competitive overwatch for normal players that do not earn money by playing the game, a lot more heroes are being used than just 7 or 8. In quickplay/arcade overwatch (= PvE in SK) all of the heroes are usable. Some are better than others, but you can use all of them and have fun in those modes. Drischa is pointing out that even in PvE in SK, a lot of the weapons/gear are just plain worse than others, for example cobalt armor vs skolver armor, or acheron vs amputator.

Fri, 07/07/2017 - 14:19
#18
Fangel's picture
Fangel
on top of that

On top of that, the gear that is worse than another piece is supposed to be better in one way or another, but the way damage works it's almost never worth it.

For example, azure guardian armor does give slightly more normal defense than skolver coat does. However, with an increased normal defense UV of at least medium, you have azure guardian that's better in every way.

While I do believe there should be "good" and "not as good" gear, I would prefer the "not as good" gear to simply be either more situational or have some sort of bonus that makes it worthwhile. Azure guardian having additional health to it would be good for both its purpose (all-around bland but fair armor) and would allow even end-game players a choice in whether they want to use skolver coat for damage or azure guardian for health.

Mon, 07/10/2017 - 04:21
#19
Drischa's picture
Drischa

I used overwatch as an example of a development team actively trying to provide more utility or strength to items (heroes) that they saw as being underutilized. I do not play or follow overwatch competitively so I cannot say how balanced it is at high level play, but at the casual level that I play I often see a variety of heroes being used.

Perhaps if I give the following examples it would make more sense:

In older Overwatch versions, Mccree's 'fan the hammer' ability allows him to put out massive amounts of damage very quickly, coupled with his flashbang made him very difficult to fight. So in turn, blizzard decreased the damage output, but increased the speed of the attack to keep it good.

In Spiral Knights, acheron is able to put out huge amounts of damage compared to other swords (heavy sword damage with lighter sword speed).
This has been an issue for years now, but is never addressed.

In Overwatch, Symettra was fairly underused as her defences were easily countered. To fix this, they heavily reworked her shield ability to give her a barrier that allowed her to better protect her team from immediate threats.

In Spiral Knights, cobalt and plate armours are supposed to offer defencive benefits to the user, but they have very very little advantage over more offensive armour and their disadvantages are quite great. However, this has also never been addressed.
If this was approached in a similar manner to Symettra, I would guess that plate armour could be given an extra ability (shield strength boosts?) to make it useful.

Wed, 07/12/2017 - 00:57
#20
Lordcalvinheins's picture
Lordcalvinheins
bah where just to whiney

if they ever nerf anything some of the players will just spam the forum with there angers and sadness. and the more salty people will just quit the game and complain to other people, telling them not to play the game cause the GM made them sad.

Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system