Spiral Knights - Grant all normal damage swords a 15% damage increase

Grant all normal damage swords a 15% damage increase

18 replies [Last post]

Fri, 05/12/2017 - 01:09

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

Lets look at Amputator's damage-

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/117917

Oh dear, no one will use this. Maybe they will at first because it's new, but not long term because its damage sucks and it's a damage weapon.... So lets talk balance a bit-

1) It would be wrong for it to deal less than say, combuster against neutral enemies, especially slimes
2) It would be wrong for it to deal more than leviathan blade
3) It would be wrong for it to deal less than or more than cold iron vanquisher against non-undead/slimes

I propose balancing them in the following ways:

Leviathan damage at max -> Acheron's neutral damage at max
Cold Iron Vanquisher at max -> Combuster's neutral damage at max

This comes out to approximately a 14% increase in damage on CIV and a 16% damage increase for Leviathan and co.
Calculations can be found here- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/117945

It would be easier and more just however to give a 15% buff to all normal damage swords. This would have the following effects on other normal swords:

(without damage max)
Sudaruska/Triglav: 115 -> 141
Dread Venom Striker: 50 main + 32 ghost swing = 82 total -> 77 main + 46 ghost swing = 123 total
Winmillion: 53+30=83 -> 70+44=114

(with damage max)
Sudaruska/Triglav: 189
Dread Venom Striker: 75 main + 39 ghost = 114 total -> 110 main + 71 ghost = 181 total!
Winmillion: 69+36=105 -> 101+69=170

You want sword balance? Well here it is. 15% is the magic number.

Sat, 05/13/2017 - 07:28

Doomiax

yes i need this

Sat, 05/13/2017 - 07:35

Sir-Pandabear

15% at which depth? The ratio between weapon damages change per depth because of the weird way depths scale damage.

Sat, 05/13/2017 - 08:10

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

I did the calculations in T2 training hall, and arrived at 14% and 16%.. since like you say it does change and isn't that simple (I kind of touched on it a bit but not enough) I think a round 15% would be "close enough". Do you think it would fluctuate too much at later depths?

Sat, 05/13/2017 - 08:32

Streetdragon

Cannot agree more.

At this point, Acheron does a better job being an all-round sword than any of the full normal damage based swords.
I mean, okay, Leviathan does a bit more gainst undead and fiends than Acheron but the difference is small.

What is even the point having any of the Normal Swords then?

Sat, 05/13/2017 - 09:11

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

Redid the calculations using 130 as the defense number in T3 training hall.

Leviathan blade = 191 @ min
Leviathan blade = 265 @ max
Levi+15% = 324 @ max damage
Levi+15% = 236 @ min damage

Combuster damage @ max: 319
Acheron damage @ max: 361
Combuster damage @ min: 198
Acheron damage @ min = 242

So it's a bit off from what I wanted at 15%, but in a way that I'm ok with, seeing as to that I rounded it down anyway.

Sat, 05/13/2017 - 13:05

Dragnoran

Agreed

although one must keep in mind to what extent this affects celestial saber

Sat, 05/13/2017 - 13:27

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

Celestial saber is just a leviathan that has stun occasionally. It's also owned by like, "<1%" of players, so I really wouldn't worry about it taking off. If anything-

Celestial Saber -> Cold Iron Vanquisher Values + more frequent stun/stun on normal hits

Sweet Dreams -> Cold Iron Vanquisher Values + sleep status version of celestial saber, because it is a pillow

But honestly it's one of those for-rich-people weapons that they probably well intend to be "over powered", even though it's a pretty meaningless upgrade.

Sun, 05/14/2017 - 11:51

Grimreaperlord

I second this.

Normal damage swords are usually useful when there are two differing types of opponents that both differ in damage weaknesses and strengths. Like, for instance, Gremlins and Construct levels. Bringing a single Piercing or Elemental sword is a bad idea since one is weak to one of those types of damage.

But if that's the case, then people either bring along both or just a neutral damage weapon (in this case, Shadow, which is far more superior because Gremlins are weak to it.)

Normal is essentially useless, and it does need some way to make it better to put it on-par with other damage types.

Sun, 05/14/2017 - 19:29

Cookiezrulez

+++++1

love this :o

Mon, 05/15/2017 - 03:34

#10

Fangel

hmm

I like the idea of them being more useful, but I can't help but think their efficiency being tied to normal damage is part of the point. Normal damage is supposed to be weaker in general, but not penalize you for bringing it everywhere.

We're also comparing pure normal damage to split damage. Personally I feel split damage shouldn't be an even split - instead, being enhanced specialized damage with weaker normal damage, adding up to about the same damage VS weak targets but less damage VS strong targets.

All in all though, increasing base damage of normal damage weapons would be good. Something that may be good to test as well is a comparison to how many hits it takes for an enemy to die with normal damage compared to specialized damage, since that is the biggest difference. From there it's a balance tradeoff - how many hits do we want enemies to die to compared to the "efficient" specialized counterparts? If a gremlin dies in 5 hits with a levi but 4 hits with an acheron, but it takes 5 hits to kill a zombie with a levi and 6 with an acheron, is that balanced enough?

I feel like that would be a good discussion to have before buffing a weapon that can be useful anywhere.

I think the easy thing to agree on though is that normal damage weapons having sidegrades that have family damage bonuses on them are rather useless. Either making them all pure specialized damage or some major overhaul is in order.

Mon, 05/22/2017 - 17:56

#11

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

Yes, this does assume nothing is innately wrong with the balance between CIV and Levi when the end result would be levi still winning out. It's not perfect, but it's the simplest possible way to fix the most swords. Issues like CIV and amputator could easily be fixed by further giving these weapons a status effect.. possibly sleep, possibly stun, but something.
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EDIT: Bumping this... it was well received and could use attention. If it's already been read by the GMs and discussed feel free to graveyard it.

Fri, 06/02/2017 - 08:40

#12

Cheshireccat

I agree with this almost completely.
Fangel's concerns need to be addressed, but having things like Troika and DVS become viable opens up several entirely new play styles.

Also of concern: LD
IF this doesn't upset LD balance then I could get behind this idea.
--Chesh 😸

Fri, 06/02/2017 - 22:26

#13

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

It being an even split doesn't actually change anything... so I didn't bring that up. The part about testing is a good point but at the same time, it's noteworthy that everything is constantly in flux based on depth like zeddy said, so testing would likely have to be done by the gremlin engineer to really count.

I don't think this would upset LD balance in a negative way. The biggest swords people use are gran faust, divine avenger, and the toothpicks. DVS would be way out of wack under this suggestion, so it would perhaps see use which isn't a bad thing and winmillion would follow suit.. but levi etc. would be akin to acheron in terms of damage. Troikas would possibly become a thing?

Sat, 06/03/2017 - 03:17

#14

Fangel

i think i found the problem here

"but levi etc. would be akin to acheron in terms of damage"

I don't feel like a weapon doing acheron levels of damage without the benefit of boosting two damage bars (which is what makes that weapon OP anyways) would be a proper balance. When you make normal damage weapons OP it doesn't make normal damage weapons "better", it makes specialized damage weapons worse. Hence, the hit counter thing I mentioned needing to be taken into account and figuring out which is better.

After a bit of thought I think that, for example, in a 4 person party against a gremlin knocker, a shadow damage brandish (obsidian edge) should kill the knocker in about 5 hits, 4 if the third hit in the combo lands. A normal damage brandish/calibur (leviathan blade) should kill it in about 6 hits, 5 if two final swings from a combo land. An elemental damage brandish (combuster) should kill it in about 10 hits, 9 if 3 final swings from a combo land.

In this case you're seeing it look like: a little over 1 combo for effective swords, about 2 combos for normal damage swords, and about 3 combos for ineffective swords. From there you take a look at other enemies - how many "combos" should it take to take down, say, a gremlin thwacker. How about a lichen colony? Keeping it simple in design but changing gameplay is a nice way to go about it.

Normal damage being nice and reliable would be great, but a fair amount of the time that's all they're supposed to be. Making them a powerhouse seems against their design, but making more weapons viable (piercing cutter from the hunting blade, elemental calibur from the cold iron carver, etc) might be interesting.

Sat, 06/03/2017 - 11:22

#15

Triplescrew

Dunno...Simply increasing

Dunno...Simply increasing damage sounds kinda boring.

I would prefer specialised normal weapons ( Amputator, WHB , CIV and such) to have much stronger monster type bonus. Maybe even "special" one that can go over maximum....so they could rival elemental weapons when fighting that specific monster family.

Sat, 06/03/2017 - 11:30

#16

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

Fangel.

Lets take these 4 damage values-

Ineffective

Normal

Superbly Effective

And assign them to combuster-

When combuster hits an ineffective enemy, it should be ineffective.
When combuster hits a neutral target, it should be normal.
When combuster hits an enemy weak to elemental, it should deal superbly effective damage.

Now, when you attack an enemy with the pure normal variant of combuster, should the damage be-

A) Ineffective?

B) Normal?

Can we come to an agreement? Because right now it's kind of in the middle. Do you want a sword that's less effective against everything? My suggestion is to move it to "normal". Why is this wrong?????????????

Mon, 06/05/2017 - 13:10

#17

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

No point writing good suggestions. No one cares anyway.

Sun, 06/11/2017 - 17:17

#18

Jedwell

Bravo

I guess the issue at hand is that the only people who actually care aren't able to do anything about it.

By the way, I find it kind of hilarious how long this discussion even became. The point was that normal swords should be decent in any situation, while elemental swords should be bad if they are weak against a target, decent if neutral and strong if effective. I mean, currently normal type swords are less than decent in any situation. They would only deal more damage than an elemental sword if the target enemy is weak to the used element. But why would you care about that if you can carry two swords anyway?

I don't really get how Fangel's point was relevant to that particular issue.

Also, I don't really get why simply tweaking a single number in the gamefiles apparently needs a miracle to happen.

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Grant all normal damage swords a 15% damage increase