Spiral Knights - Compounds Make the Game Less Fun

Compounds Make the Game Less Fun

13 replies [Last post]

Tue, 06/27/2017 - 20:31

Mayaura

Yes, that's an opinion, but it's one that's very widely shared.

Why do Compounds make the game less fun? Because they are too difficult relative to the other Adventures at the same level. The result is that players wait at the elevator for the gate to change, or will often just run through the Compounds.

What makes them so difficult? The multitudes of small ground monsters. There are too many, and they are too invulnerable/fast/annoying.

If you are solo and the final room has the two keys with gates, it's nearly impossible to slog thru the multitudes of ground monsters.

In summary, Compounds make them game less fun because they are too hard in their current form compared to other more doable and more rewarding Adventures at the same level. The number of ground monsters needs to be reduced, especially relative to the number of players on a party. Also, the frequency of appearance of Compounds is too high. Finally, Compounds need to be more rewarding in terms of pickups.

Tue, 06/27/2017 - 21:40

Midnight-Dj

Add a few things

Compound is, complicated compound often come with some nasty mob combinations, ie, fiend + mini slimes. Can be death taps for noobs.

Bombs are still not good compound is often said to be good place to use bombs, but bombs and bomber gears are still underpowered. Makes crafting compound specialist gears not worth it.

Risk vs. Reward compound don't offer enough treasure boxes to incentivize the players to grind through them. With only around 4~6 boxes. I am better off stand up to stretch and wait for the next level to rotate.

Wed, 06/28/2017 - 00:01

Ogygus

Also it's hard to get arena

Also it's hard to get arena as the last room, it's so rare.

Wed, 06/28/2017 - 07:44

Goofio

I agree with everything written so far. I try to avoid compounds as much as possible. Very little reward for the added difficulty.

What I dislike the most about compounds is that the color of the elevator icon doesn't correspond very closely to the enemy composition. Here is an example ("Shocked Compound: Ravenous Warrens"):

Steam Screenshot

The icon for this compound is orange. Orange = Gremlin

So I think, "I'll use elemental armor and shadow weapons." But when I play the level, there's hardly any gremlins at all. The swaths of mini enemies are bunnies, and they deal piercing damage.

There are tougher examples that usually involve fiends, but you get the idea. The level icon doesn't closely correspond to the majority of enemies you encounter.

Wed, 06/28/2017 - 10:02

Horseclaw

compounds everywhere

Some people might have trouble with identifying Compounds since you need to read the name and look at the icon to understand what's in the level. I agree, the icon needs to be altered to show both families present, as well as the name.

Possibly something like: (Status) Compound: (Monster) (Mini) (e.g. "Ruined Compound: Fiendish Burrows" for a Fiend and Undead compound without status).

My main problem with compounds are the minis. They seem to be as strong as normal monsters with slightly less health. They should be a nuisance, not a death threat. Reducing their base health so that 2-3 neutral hits kill (on Elite, since even on Elite these guys should be threatening because of numbers, not because they exist) would be a lot better.

A somewhat unrelated thought: What if compounds had a chance of awarding a battle sprite similar to the mini found in it (from treasure boxes presumably)? Might give a use to Moonstone and Valestone.

Wed, 06/28/2017 - 12:25

Knited

compound

I'd say they're doable, but it definitely is troublesome to get rid of all of the monsters since they are small and numerous. Too bad they all don't drop loot, so these levels also don't pay much. Playing through those levels gets boring.

Wed, 06/28/2017 - 12:46

Bernston

Well, I've just created this

Well, I've just created this Wiki page about surviving through the Compound levels. I know some of these aren't thrilling, but we have to try to endure them as we can. If anyone's interested in posting info about that, the link is here...

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Compound/Loadout

Happy contributing!

Wed, 06/28/2017 - 14:47

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

But compounds is my favorite level.......... I don't need loot and it provides a fun amount of difficulty, as well as a nice place to use my various bomb combos. Perhaps instead of nerfing the fun difficulty, we could raise the difficulty of every other level past it, so as to justify their rewards? I can at least dream, right?

Wed, 06/28/2017 - 16:06

Coolid

wow, someone else shares the compound hate with me?
yeah I agree, the enemies are irritating(especially the jelly ones) and too abundant.
the levels also don't have many rewards, as there are usually few boxes, and most of the enemies are the tiny enemies which rarely drop anything significant.

Wed, 06/28/2017 - 16:15

Zincamania-Forum

ehh

If it's too hard just use chaos armor + ssb cause that's op

Wed, 06/28/2017 - 17:46

#10

Mayaura

agreeing

Goofio and Horseclaw both make excellent points.

The Gate monitor does not accurately inform us of what monsters we will face. Perhaps the signaling system needs an update. Like shapes inserted into a powerpoint that have both a fill color and an outline color, maybe the shape in the monitor could also use a two-tone icon to inform us of the monsters we'll be facing.

And as Horseclaw said, those little critters are too powerful in light of their size and numbers. They should be about half has hearty as they are now.

Wed, 06/28/2017 - 22:43

#11

Playerman

I can agree with the points on how the Gate monitor can be confusing and how compounds are really lacking in terms of profits. The main reason that I skip compounds isn't the enemies though, but simply the fact that there isn't much to be made in them. The minis don't give as much loot as regular enemies, and there are very few boxes in each level.

I don't think that difficulty is necessarily an issue, because bombs, contrary to what some others in this thread are saying, work very well in compounds. I think the DBB works well for Scarabs and Dust Bunnies, and the Nitronome or even Acheron charges work for the slower-moving Glop Drops. They don't take many hits at all, but it becomes really important in Compounds that you prioritize kiting over DPS, which is usually the playstyle everyone takes on in the rest of the game.

This is coming from a Vanguard with enough equipment to handle Fiends, Undead, Constructs, and Gremlins all in one level, though, so I realize that there is a really steep learning curve in Compounds. I think it's a waste of content to simply remove or dull down content (remembering the nerf on zombie and wolver tracking), so the best solution in my mind is to make the reward more than what it is now.

Thu, 06/29/2017 - 17:34

#12

Fangel

kinda

Compounds, I feel, are designed to be on par with Candlestick Keeps. Problem is their rewards aren't worthwhile. They have the difficulty of Candlestick Keep with the rewards of a wolver den.

The issue with minis comes from several factors. Beast minis are actually one of the hardest beast enemies to fight. Shocker, really. I feel the beast minis and the wolvers should swap their tracking AI, making wolvers threatening and minis less so. Both undead and slime minis are dreadful to fight with swords, as one hurts you while airborne (and shortly after, which is the killer) while the other punishes you for being and staying close. Minis are strong, hit hard, and come in large swarms. Not exactly my idea of a mini monster.

Honestly, compounds aren't so much 'pro bombs' as they are 'anti swords'. Swords in compounds leads to sadness and death, and a problem is that many players rely on their swords for combat. As such, compounds actually do their job really well.

The biggest drawback of compounds is rewards. If a compound granted significant rewards in the form of treasure boxes, players would be more likely to run through them. Free danger rooms would make them sought after, especially if the box reward was even better than clockwork tunnel danger rooms.
As it stands, the minimum number of boxes players can get are 6 (used to be 2), and the maximum is around 13 (4 at the elevator, 5 prior to the final room, 2 from a secret indoor puzzle, 2 from an outdoor switch puzzle). Compared to a clockwork tunnel, which typically has at least 10 boxes while being significantly easier, you're looking at a bad situation.

If compounds gave a minimum of 12 boxes and a maximum of say, 30 before danger rooms, you can bet I'd be looking for those. As Playerman said, bombs do make minis quite easy to deal with, and I've found shadow vortexes to work great on the slime minis since they don't have a DBB to work with.

Thu, 06/29/2017 - 18:38

#13

Horseclaw

difficulty

It seems kind of weird that most of the 'hard' levels aren't really that hard at all. Graveyards aren't particularly threatening, since Phantoms are dangerous but are easy to handle so you don't actually need to run all the way through the level in terror, and Candlestick Keep can be done without lighting candles (that aren't mandatory to light) since you can just dash through Grimalkins or walk across them to make them go away without hurting you.

Problem is, there is no solution to Minis other than crowd control. They have decent stats and come in big numbers, so you can't just slash them down with a sword, you actually need to get a bomb blow them away so you can slowly kill them without yourself dying. The problem here is not that bombs are better, but that minis are just regular monsters that come in massive groups.

The solution (as I see it) is to just make them weaker so that a Knight does not crumble in fear as a result of their mere presence, but because there's one thousand of them all appearing at the same time. (Also, fixing Grave Scarab attack frames so that when the attack stops they can no longer hurt you would be greatly appreciated)

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Compounds Make the Game Less Fun