the announcement is rather vague, so I would want some more concrete info.
damage was adjusted, but of what exactly? main attack? charge? which part of those? was it increased or decreased? by how much?
do shards still deal damage when they land? can you still make walls with them? do they do damage over time and hit thrice, or does that mean the same thing?
so how exactly did tortoguns change?
Fri, 09/08/2017 - 14:07
Fri, 09/08/2017 - 17:34
#2
Do we know what they capped out at before?
Fri, 09/08/2017 - 17:59
#3
↑↑↓↓←→←→ba
It was around 3 hits prior [anecdotally]. Shard bombs were the same at 3 prior. The big change with shard bombs happened to be unlinking that cap between two consecutive charges. I've never had issues with two consecutive tortogun charges causing no damage. Therefore, I currently view no change whatsoever.
Not to get off topic, but I've also never had issues with shard bombs dealing no damage after consecutive charges. I could reproduce Zeddy's tests at CTR VH, but not at CTR Max (they worked as expected).
Fri, 09/08/2017 - 18:45
#4
@Skepticraven
Is something broken with my tortofist? For neutral D24 I got these numbers:
Lunge: 52
Bullet: 72
Charge Impact: 107
Charge Tick: 71
First level of FSC, no damage bonus, piercing tortogun.
Fri, 09/08/2017 - 19:38
#5
That's about what I thought.
The shard bombs should now be half viable. Prior to this the big problems were that their damage was capped and that they couldn't reliably hit grievers. This means that the piercing and elemental varieties are good. The shadow variety are still going to be poor choices compared to dark retribution, and the normal variant is still worse off than nitronome.
Fri, 09/08/2017 - 22:32
#6
Wait what? I'm confused how shard bombs are BETTER than before. They still have awful lag, weak damage, and those stupid invincitinks.
Fri, 09/08/2017 - 23:12
#7
Well Mr. Batabi....
They no longer have those stupid invincitinks on subsequent bombs which means that they now have the potential to deal their damage with every bomb.
Using the stratum 6 wiki values:
Dark Briar Barrage = 312 vs an effective target
Deadly Splinter Bomb = 143 (initial) + 186 (shard)
Initial + shard = 329
2x shard = 372
Initial + 2x shard = 515
3x shard = 558
So at a glance, the shard bombs are better than DBB if you can hit with more than one component, and can be much better if you can get in 3 hits... at least against effective targets. Against neutral targets, the values change a bit-
DBB = 230
Shard = 99
Initial = 75
Shard+Initial = 174
Initial + 2x shard = 249
Further, dark retribution is insanely good.
Dark retribution:
effective = 83
neutral = 49
Hits to deal more damage than either of the above: 3-4 (7 if dark rets is neutral and shards are effective...)
Hits against a stationary target: 11-12
------------
In conclusion, the elemental shard and piercing shard bombs are a good idea for content that is 100% weak to them now, but the normal and shadow shard bombs are just worse versions of nitronome or dark retribution still. Dark briar barrage is still a good bomb for content like dreams and nightmares, because it's still better against neutral targets which DaN is full of.
The normal shard bomb should be better against taking out stationary targets aka turrets, because you can 100% guarantee initial + 2x shards against those.
The only change I would suggest making is to dark retribution. No I don't want its damage gone.. but I do think it should be more difficult to utilize.
Step 1: Slow the orbitals down by 2x
Step 2: Make the orbitals last 2x as long
Step 3: Longer detonation time by 2x
Same DPS, but harder to hit with and longer to get going. Ergo moving enemies would have a tendency to move out of the radius.
Sat, 09/09/2017 - 00:20
#8
this is getting a little off topic. if you want to discuss shard bombs, you can make a separate thread, this is specifically for tortoguns.
so damage didnt change. no idea what they said it did then, but alright. and it sounds like the shards still deal damage on landing.
but that still leaves two questions. what is meant with the damage over time and can you still make walls with the shards?
Sat, 09/09/2017 - 03:16
#9
@Fehzor
You've got the right idea, but also consider damage bonus.
A max damage the values are:
DBB effective: 366
DBB neutral: 301
Splinter effective: 174 + 221
Splinter neutral: 102 + 156
Now at neutral 2 shards competes with DBB at 312 damage vs 301, and core + 2 shards trounces it in single-target damage with 414.
It would be intellectually dishonest of me to say that makes splinter bombs flat out better, DBB still does really good at damage in a huge area, allowing it to inflict the damage on more enemiees. Group DPS may therefore be higher situationally, not to mention all the lack of knockback that everyone always gets excited about.
Sat, 09/09/2017 - 04:23
#10
↑↑↓↓←→←→ba
@ Neueragon
They still make walls.
"Damage over time" = hits multiple times at set increments (of the monster is still touching it, max of 3 hits).
And just if you were interested... Flash charging for double falling impacts+lodges still works, too.
@ Zeddy
There are a handful of possibilities.
1. Some monsters in FSC have boosted armor (higher than default for that depth), so I typically avoid FSC for damage testing for that reason.
2. Savage tortofist now deals less neutral damage than grand tortofist.
3. They changed the damage numbers on the server between our two independent tests.
4. One of the two of us weren't careful enough on our damage tests. (I used mask of seerus, almire armor, grand tortofist for all my test.)
I do have all 4 guns, so I ran a quick duplicate of your test.
Testing savage tortofist and grand tortofist on the first spawn of zombies on D24 FSC (as well as the wheels)... I replicate my numbers again (70, 108, 172, 104) for both guns.
This eliminates possibility 2 and 3. Identically to my previous tests, I used the following equipment: perfect seerus mask, alirian crusader armor, punkin sprite (MSI perk), swiftstrike buckler, grand tortofist (UVs: slime low + beast low), savage tortofist (no UVs). All items were fully heated.
I'd venture to guess your tortogun isn't fully heated is the "broken" part of it.
Sat, 09/09/2017 - 05:14
#11
My savage tortofist was only level 2. Sorry about the confusion.
Sat, 09/09/2017 - 20:05
#12
The boards are pretty dead, and this was the only thread discussing the update, so...
Anyway the torto guns still seems unreliable except on bosses and large enemies.
Tue, 09/12/2017 - 06:17
#13
I believe the change is that invincitink counter only counts for each individual shard now, rather than the charge as a whole.
So for example, before the change if I managed to get the majority of the charge to land on a zombie, the initial impacts would take up all the invincitink counter and the lodged charge hits would just tink.
After the patch, no matter how many impacts hit it, each shard will be able to hit each monster 3 times.
This effectively increases the reward for hitting monsters with multiple shards.
Tue, 09/12/2017 - 15:41
#14
↑↑↓↓←→←→ba
3 hit cap is applied on a per-charge basis.
Shield bumping a monster into different lodged crystals from the same charge does not circumvent this.
If the impacts align nicely, damage will be dealt faster but will not deal more damage.
If they don't handle the race condition, higher damage could be dealt (but is non-intentional).
Sat, 09/16/2017 - 00:16
#15
Tortofist weapons were nerfed.
This was a nerf on Torto weapons.
But, they're still quite strong if the shards land correctly. I can still one shot a Lumber. if anyone read this post before updated it, I thought I couldn't one shot the lumbers anymore. But, yeah, i can still.
Mon, 09/18/2017 - 04:04
#16
After using my tortofist yesterday and re-reading the post, I believe that skeptic is correct and I misunderstood.
However, I disagree with Shadow-turtle that this was a nerf. The new mechanics allows the crystals to hit more times in total as the impacts and lodged hits register invincitinks differently, meaning the lodged hits will connect regardless of how many initial impacts hit the monster. This means each charge can do more damage in total, therefore a buff.
Mon, 09/18/2017 - 06:12
#17
If it was nerfed but can still oneshot a lumber, that was a well-deserved nerf.
Sat, 09/23/2017 - 15:29
#18
hmm
Drischa,
I say it's a nerf because as you said the impacts and lodged hits register differently. Before, if it landed the crystals behind a trojan, while that trojan stood there, the lodged hits would just continuously murder it from a single crystal and i could "1 shot" a Trojan. Now there is a 3 hit cap, so i cannot 1 shot a Trojan, no matter how hard I try, with my Savage Tortofist. At least not yet. Once I am finished leveling it to 10, I'll update this.
Zeddy,
To be fair, 1 Shotting Lumbers isn't all that impressive for these weapons. Lumbers are large and immobile while usually providing a single tasty target for the weapon's charge. In most other situations, Tortofist weapons aren't that good, especially against devilite and spookat mobs because they are too mobile. The charge shots are sorta random, they have some bit of pattern and spacing to them that's somewhat predictable but not always. In comparison, it is far simpler and more efficient to just use a sword or a different gun, such as any of the damage type blasters.
To me, these weapons being strong is well deserved because they have a higher skill cap than anything else in the game. They're also not easy to get. Tortodrones are mean unless you have a full, good team.
For Grand Tortofist...
Neutral D19 damage (but hey, this is a 5* wep, so might not change):
Lunge: 54 -> 54
Bullet: 83 -> 83
Charge Impact: 119 -> 119
Charge Lodged: 71 -> 71
Neutral D24 damage:
Lunge: 70 -> 70
Bullet: 108 -> 108
Charge Impact: 172 -> 172
Charge Lodged: 104 -> 104
Neutral D28 damage:
Lunge: 75-> 75
Bullet: 108 -> 108
Charge Impact: 191 -> 191
Charge Lodged: 107 -> 107
I'm noticing no damage difference.
It's likely the only change was the identical one to shard bombs -- Charge Lodged hits cap out at 3 hits.