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The problem with Elite difficulty

10 replies [Last post]
Sat, 09/30/2017 - 00:56
Flash-Flire's picture
Flash-Flire

Ah yes, Elite difficulty. The only one you should ever play on, since it's the only one that gives semi-decent rewards.
There's just one problem.

The way that it's made "difficult" isn't really difficult: it's just more punishing to be hit.
What do I mean by that exactly, you might be thinking (but probably not)?
I mean that instead of changing anything really substantial they gave monsters nuclear bombs for standard attacks.

What I suggest to fix the problem (i.e. what you actually came here to read):
Instead of beefing up enemy HP and attack power, I have a few possible solutions.
- Slightly increase hitboxes of some attacks (e.g. make Lumber smashes have a small "shockwave": like a weak Trojan): so instead of attacks themselves being punishing to get hit by make the hits harder to avoid (if you can avoid every attack in Normal, Elite isn't actually harder)
- Decrease wind-up period to monster attacks (but not too much so that hits are unavoidable): similar reason to above
- Place more enemies or stronger types of enemies (e.g. replace some wolvers with alphas, grem knockers with thwackers etc.): just make it more interesting

Of course, these shouldn't be put in alongside the ridiculously powerful enemies that already exist: I'd say cut down on the monster's attack (comparable to Advanced) if any of these are implemented.

Sat, 09/30/2017 - 13:52
#1
Flash-Flire's picture
Flash-Flire
Sir-Pandabear accidentally

Sir-Pandabear accidentally posted on another thread, but here's the reply:

I would also like there to be 50% more enemies rather than 50% more hit points. More fun, more interesting, more rewarding.

It's fine to have a bit more health on enemies, but at some point non-dps weapons just get left in the dust.

Yeah, the whole extra HP thing gets annoying as enemies like lumbers just become damage sponges, especially with silkwings. Also, menders become an absolute nightmare if you don't have a decent shadow weapon nearby (nightblade/dark chaingun).

I actually didn't think of more rewarding, but it makes sense: more enemies, more drops! Scale down enemy drops a bit and it'd work just as well as currently.

Sat, 09/30/2017 - 15:59
#2
Nitronicx
Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3

I'd like to mention the tiers system we have. Enemies HP raises faster, they attack quickier, hit harder, have additional attack, your arsenal is less efective...
Just meant to point this out.

Sat, 09/30/2017 - 17:14
#3
Flash-Flire's picture
Flash-Flire
well, yeah

That is kind of the point of the tier system. I just still think there's a smarter way to make enemies more difficult in elite than making their attacks nukes.

What if you found more "overtier" enemies in T1 and T2 (like the T3 jellies you find in RJP)? Maybe in T3 that's when my replacement idea could come in with replacing enemies with more difficult versions in the same family.

Sun, 10/01/2017 - 01:30
#4
Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

You're quite late to the party. We've been trying to get them to do this and when difficulty came out Nick said they would make it more than just harder hitting + whatever and they never did. Excellent.

I've also written a bunch about this. To sum it up, after watching countless scrubs fail at getting rarities I came to the conclusion that easy mode shouldn't be unrewarding. Lets say I legitimately am not good at video games and want to play SK. Why should I have to grind 2x as much as some guy that's been playing Zelda and has skills that transition over? At the same time, if all modes paid out the same no one would play on elite because why would you farm on that? I proposed the following-

Normal = High sparks of life, decent rarities just like other modes, decent crowns

Advanced = Less sparks of life, same rarities, higher crowns per effort given

Elite = No sparks of life, same rarities/crowns, some form of special currency that buys harder to use weapons/gear/costumes

In terms of actual difficulty, the problem I identified was that no one played on advanced-- everyone played easy or elite, so as to either maximize the rewards or minimize the difficulty. Because of this, I would propose the following-

Normal = As it is now

Advanced = As elite is now, possibly with extra enemies

Elite = As danger missions are now;
possibly add an effect of some sort to each level, like a few phantoms, grimalkats, souls aka 'bubbles'

The end result would be that elite would be too hard and inefficient for farming crowns and rarities, but would still give them at the normal rate. Advanced then becomes the crown farm for normal players that are getting set up for gear, and normal becomes a viable route for people that need it as well as the rarity farm. Elite would be unreasonable, but would give players like myself something to do... earlier today some kid wanted me to do the arcade and I was like "no that's boring"... it's a randomly generated wonderland and I'm bored with it after 5K+ hours in game. The shrine of slumber was a great addition but it's not hard and as a single new area it just isn't enough. Well this is what would be enough.

Sun, 10/01/2017 - 02:20
#5
Flash-Flire's picture
Flash-Flire
wow

That actually sounds like a really good idea. Especially the whole "more sparks on normal" thing, since if you play on normal chances are it's a hard mission or you're not very good, so more revives would be welcome.

Mon, 10/02/2017 - 19:03
#6
Fangel's picture
Fangel
i agree

Fehzor has the difficulty issue pretty much figured out. Rarities are not the way to reward difficult levels, beating them should be.

It would be interesting to see more level hazards and enemy behaviors that are unique to elite difficulty. Things that make it legitimately harder rather than many player's default.

I would vouch that every level (except maybe treasure vaults) could have additional lurking hazards on them. Old hazards, such as the phantoms and grimalkins that Fehzor suggests, would be a great way to make even familiar levels more challenging. A few new unique hazards could also be put into play, such as:

Status storms: occasionally in a level, players will be encompassed in a "status storm" that spawns a variety of enemies, status mists, wisps/shankles, and lost souls.

Swarm Leaks:(Arcade only) levels will occasionally have a scenario room where the swarm has leaked out to. You will have to endure several waves of swarm enemies.

Forced Danger Rooms: Introduce more danger rooms, and they are automatically unlocked and must be completed in order to proceed. It's a nice reward if you're prepared, but otherwise may cause some issues. Alternatively, replace party button rooms with danger rooms without the box reward.

These sort of ideas change up the levels without outright changing enemy spawns and behaviors (though I would enjoy advanced AI on elite difficulty), and an emphasis on fighting more stuff rather than fighting tougher stuff is something that most gamers enjoy - take a look at how Killing Floor 2 did their difficulty levels. More enemies, more attacks, but anything that wasn't a miniboss or boss fight had the same health on practically every difficulty.

Thu, 10/05/2017 - 22:40
#7
Qever's picture
Qever
No souls plz!I hate those

No souls plz!I hate those things :P

Fri, 10/06/2017 - 01:29
#8
Triplescrew's picture
Triplescrew
Hmmm

More enemies - yes. More enemies = more rewards. More enemies = bombs become a bit more useful.

More danger rooms - yes. I love these. Free danger rooms? Even better.

Bigger hitboxes - no. Faster attacks - no. New enemy attacks - YES.

I want lumbers to be able to SPIN their upper body with club extended. It should trigger like Trojan's electric fart (when you stand behind them for too long)

Fri, 10/06/2017 - 03:28
#9
Flash-Flire's picture
Flash-Flire
i suppose

Hitbox changes and faster attacks could definitely be a problem, yeah, but I'm not sure about new attacks. Those are kind of reserved for more dramatic changes (i.e. changes in tier).

Mon, 04/23/2018 - 12:43
#10
Flash-Flire's picture
Flash-Flire
bump + idea

This is kinda from something I said from another suggestion about specialised armour sets (in general discussion for some reason) but anyway

Maybe the defense in Elite difficulty should affect damage more than in other difficulties: as in having a good defensive matchup reduces damage more in Elite than it does in normal. Not only does this encourage you to make a more diverse arsenal (and buff the specialty armour types) it'd also nerf Black Kat and Chaos by making their status weaknesses and poor defense more crippling.

I'm not entirely sure how the damage calculation works in SK (there isn't anything on the "damage" page in the wiki) but I'd assume that defense probably works as either a percentage reduction or a flat point reduction. In either case it should be easy enough to apply an extra weighting if you're playing on Elite difficulty (I mean, that's probably what already happens with enemy attack strength).

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