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Don't let the 'mini' enemies level up (closed)

17 replies [Last post]
Fri, 11/17/2017 - 14:20
Mintagen's picture
Mintagen

The mini enemies are incredibly overpowered in higher tiers and difficulties. This has to do with how they are made to be harder to cope with. Minis increase in heath and damage as much as any other enemy as the game goes on, but that makes them incredibly overpowered. In tier 3 in levels like the Creeping Colony and similar levels, you are basically fighting 20 regular tier 2 enemies except cramped into a small corridor which are now faster and harder to avoid, hard to hit and with no loot to compensate for your time AND also re-spawn!

In the basic form, they are supposed to die in one hit and deal only one bar of damage, which I think is the perfect way to keep them. They should not level up higher than that or they basically break levels that should be fun but turn out frustrating.

For one part, minis are more like obstacles, like spikes or missiles are more than enemies. It's the other enemies that make them a treat. Level up other enemies, but don't do so for the mini enemies.

A way to make them tougher in higher tiers without becoming OP, is to make increase how many spawn at the time for higher tiers, but keep them all in the one hit kill, one bar damage area. That way, they are harder to cope with, but not OP. As a group they are tougher, alone they should stay the same.

Mon, 11/20/2017 - 01:34
#1
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

Consider using a bomb.

Mon, 11/20/2017 - 13:06
#2
Midnight-Dj's picture
Midnight-Dj
bomb bias is strong in this one ^

Just avoid compound in general, the loot is not worth it. Making bombs exclusive for those levels are a waste of orbs anyhow since bombs are still unbalanced against the two other weapon types.

Mon, 11/20/2017 - 15:33
#3
Mintagen's picture
Mintagen
In response (and some clarity)

I may consider getting a bomb. Of course, I only need it for the compound and it will be expensive as already stated.

I do try to avoid them when I can, but it's difficult especially when it's in a rank mission and I have to finish it to progress. Avoiding doesn't excuse having frustratingly tough levels however. Which is why I suggested "nerfing" them. That will not just make me able to finish them, but also make me enjoy playing those levels, like all the others.

I find other types of levels tough too, like Candlestick keep. But I only ever feel like it is unfair with those dang mini enemies. The only mini enemies I feel are balanced are the royal minis. They attack slow and don't have a constant attack move like Drops or Scarabs. Also they spawn in low numbers, so you can deal with them with a sword or gun without being overwhelmed.

Tue, 11/21/2017 - 01:20
#4
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

Consider using sprite skills.

Wed, 11/22/2017 - 22:06
#5
Mintagen's picture
Mintagen
Sprites don't seem to be the answer

None of the battle sprites will be exactly amazing with the mini enemies. The only one sprite skill that could be a bit useful is Seraphynx's Ray of Light (but only slightly), but I am not spending that much money in order to swap and I am not gonna start the game all over just to swap for that one singular skill. The tier 3 sprite skills for Maskeraith and Drakon could be useful, if they didn't take so long to recharge. Which makes them unreliable at the rate of which they spawn mini enemies in.

Wed, 11/22/2017 - 22:25
#6
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
Maskraith + bomb FTW

Have you tried Maskraith? All of its abilities are anti-compound.
Also like Zeddy said, get a bomb, consider a vortex or a blast (Torpor Tantrum proves to be the most useful for compounds), I heard that you can OHKO mini enemies with a single BAB blast if you have max damage and it's fully heated (needs confirmation).

Wed, 11/22/2017 - 23:23
#7
Mintagen's picture
Mintagen
Bomb (-Maskeraith) FT(specific)W (hopefully)

I am already using Maskeraith. I'll say that it's not exactly as full blown perfect to make the Compound easy. All the skills don't wipe them off quickly enough to match their quick respawns and large spawn rates (except for it's last skill, but how will you have that in tier 2 when they first throw you compounds?) A bomb, I agree would be more suited for that.
But I don't think a singular level type should deserve you needing a specific build in order to beat it without crying. I think, like all the other level types and enemy types, that it should support multiple play-styles in order to be finish ('cept for the damage type resists).
Saying that, I am trying to get a bomb just for those level. Thanks for the recomends.
That doesn't forgive them though. Picking up the broken glass with your hands instead of your teeth doesn't fix the fact that the glass is broken. Which is why I want a nerf so I can sleep at night.

Thu, 11/23/2017 - 03:46
#8
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
:P

You don't have to force your way through everything you can always use shadow cloak to sneak and get the keys.
Also you're crafting a bomb for only one type of level? LOL! Bombs are useful everywhere.
Compounds usually have all types of resistances so your best bet is a Nitronome (good knockback, good normal damage, good charge and fuse times, kills annoying enemies and allies alike).
Also compounds deserve a buff in rewards rather than a nerf in monsters, it's fair as it is difficulty-wise but its reward/effort ratio is so low, I think it'd be more balanced if all non-re-spawning mini-monsters give as much rewards as a jelly cube, a wolver or a zombie instead of very little to no rewards.

Thu, 11/23/2017 - 07:11
#9
Mintagen's picture
Mintagen
Playstyle preference

I agree with you... In some places. I do use the shadow cloak often with the compound already, it is helpful sometimes but doesn't charge fast enough to keep you safe. In the double key gate arena, one shadow cloak is quite temporary since you loose your cloak after picking up a key. And when you do, the minis will swarm you, so it's unlikely you'll make it to the door without getting hit and dropping it to be eaten by swarms of mini scarabs.
A bomb may be useful, (which is why I am trying to get one) but I will not prefer it over a sword and gun. It's what I am comfortable with and have invested hundreds of crowns on. Give a woodcutter an axe and they'll cut down a tree, give a axe to a bard and they might cut themselves.
If the compounds rewards were higher, I actually might accept it's difficulty. I do already for the arenas and those are very hard (but don't require a bomb to finish easily), only because of the rewards. The compound sucks for loot because the mini enemies do not drop nothing for you. But I am not asking for a level nerf to begin with, I'm asking for an enemy type nerf. If the mini enemies were nerfed, I can finish those levels in Elite easily with a gun and sword, a playstyle that I am comfortable with not one forced to me.
I stand by what I typed first. Don't let them level up the way they do now. They should only exist to make the other enemies tougher.

Thu, 11/23/2017 - 10:13
#10
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
Well the game is not forcing

Well the game is not forcing you to use a bomb, you can complete it with any weapon of choice but if you're saying these levels should be nerfed (they're the only levels containing a lot of mini-monsters if you don't count SoA) just because you prefer not to use a weapon type then a lot levels should be adjusted to make them more bomb-friendly like Snarbolax and Vanaduke boss fights. So that's still a -1 from me. There are good weapons at certain areas, don't expect that you can complete all the levels with the same playstyle (you'll also get bored of it eventually). It's not for the sake of balance, it's for the sake of making players try most kinds of weapons and have fun.
Sorry if this reply disappoints you but this is just my opinion.

Thu, 11/23/2017 - 13:26
#11
Mintagen's picture
Mintagen
I understand now

I see where you are coming from game design wise. The late arrival of the compounds made me confused of how my playstyle that worked out so well, finds tremendous difficulty in completing those levels. But there are levels I cannot imagine a bomb/blade build could ever finish.
I really, really need a bomb, for secondary builds. That's why the loadout exists right?
I'll eat my greens and spend my crowns. Guess that will make more sense than asking for a enemy nerf.

Thank you for opening my eyes. I'll think twice about my build before I cry "OP, pls nerf!"

Thu, 11/23/2017 - 21:07
#12
Fangel's picture
Fangel
ayy

Late to the equation here, but I agree with the discussion taking place. Mini monsters are fine in their current state - the only thing that could be altered is how long their attacks are "active" (glop drops having a near instantaneous attack animation, scarabs still damaging knights after they land). Health, numbers, etc, are not the primary issue here anyways.

The buff to compound boxes was nice, but having more boxes in the level, making all non-respawning minis drop loot (instead of just sometimes), and adding optional side paths to the level such as danger rooms to get significant rewards would be a step in the right direction.

Compounds aren't supposed to be easy. It's one reason why they don't appear in tier 1 despite there being tier 1 variants of all the mini monsters. That being said, compounds are trivialized by proper footing and large attack radiuses, making bombs of all sorts significantly more powerful in these types of levels.

A good way to view the game design as well is that you're supposed to be playing with friends in a party. In a party like that, you'll probably have at least one or two bombs. If you're trying to take on difficult content alone, then be prepared to take extra precautions - if you went into the snarby shadow lair without elemental weapons for the undead, you would definitely feel it, but if your party members make up for that weakness you'll have a better chance at success. This is a team-based game after all. :)

Fri, 11/24/2017 - 10:40
#13
Mintagen's picture
Mintagen
Changed my mind

I have found times when they were balanced, the royal minis are very balanced all throughout their level, and even drops and scarabs find their way into being balanced the way they are. As you can tell, I've changed my mind about them but I still feel some kind of change is required. Mostly for a specific part of the compound...

I can do most compound levels even without a bomb. But never can I finish the dual locked gate level. You have to deal with turrets and mecha knights while having the entire screen almost all taken up by continuously attacking drops or scarabs that respawn, but also need to carry a key all throughout the narrow circuit to a locked gate... twice. I'll get a bomb, but you cannot expect me to not think this level is INSANE.

I personally don't care if the levels don't reward you that well. There are other missions for that. But I do like how all other levels are fun. But that one specific level, especially, is not fun. I have 3 Elite passes on Roarmulus, because it was fun, not because of the rewards.

I often play with one other knight who always joins me when they're online, and we have very good coordination with each other. If I ever find a mission hard, I invite them. But no matter how many people are apart of the party, I can expect none of them to have a good time with the dual locked gates.

You know what? I've changed my mind. Don't change anything! That mission is hilariously difficult! Everyone going salty, everyone rage quitting! It's hilarious! I got so salty I typed a forum post asking for a nerf! I hope this bomb isn't DA' BOMB (haha see what I did there) and isn't the perfect way to make that mission less difficult. Sometimes you just need the bane of your existence to exist.

Fri, 11/24/2017 - 12:13
#14
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
It's not that hard, you just need a plan

use shadow cloak > go to the place that have the keys > kill everything guarding the keys > carry the 1st key > touch the 2nd key > put the 1st key next to the turret > kill the turret > go to the the place that have the gates > kill everything guarding the gates > go get the 1st key and put it in the 1st gate > use shadow cloak > go get the 2nd key and put the key in the 2nd gate > kill the other turret > escape

Notes:

1. Some of the mini-monsters re-spawn and some don't, make sure you kill the mini-monsters that don't re-spawn so you don't get swarmed.
2. Remember to dash to lose attention so the mini-monsters won't chase you.
3. THE FLOOR IS MINI-MONSTERS! KEEP MOVING OR YOU'RE DEAD!

Fri, 11/24/2017 - 12:51
#15
Mintagen's picture
Mintagen
I already do plan

My strategy is different. First get as many minis as you can to chase you/ lead them to one side while keeping your character to a corner/ shadow cloak out of there before they surround you (as long as you stay relatively clear of that corner, minis won't chase you)/ Kill the turrets first (you now have space with all the minis in one corner), then the mecha knights and other enemies (optional)/ Then get both keys to the door using the opposite side of which you kept all the minis/ and your out!

I am biased to my own strategy. But I still cannot say the level is any less difficult with my strategy like you however. I can pull of mine without a bomb but it is still a hard level. So many things can still go wrong no matter how good the strategy. No plan is fool proof. With as many steps as these, if any of them go wrong, you're dead. You cannot say that is "not that difficult".

Fri, 11/24/2017 - 18:25
#16
Fangel's picture
Fangel
ehhh

Seeing as I've managed to take on such a level with only cutters and no slots unlocked, I can vouch that it is possible to beat a compound without a bomb or specific plan, but it does make it much more difficult if you don't take a certain approach.

An issue I see very often in compounds (and with mini monsters in general) is that people assume that they are not a threat. 1 of them is not a threat, but 2 of them can be a threat. Killing the minis is very important, and you should be using every tool at your disposal - battle sprites, consumables, charge attack, dash, etc., to do so.

Trying to tackle compounds like they are normal levels will be frustrating simply because being swarmed is so much different than any other monster type. It's the same reason people freak out at the final wave of shadow based arenas - greavers swarm players in a similar (but more fair) way like minis, and unless you take on that wave a certain way you are in for a world of pain. There's several ways that you can take on the wave, but the time-tested "strafe, shoot, sprint" does not work against greavers.

Heck, this chat kinda reminds me of some old ones we've had about greavers on the forums... And it kind of had the same result; we mention different weapons and playstyles as a way to suggest how to overcome the challenge since it needs a different approach.

Sat, 11/25/2017 - 11:16
#17
Mintagen's picture
Mintagen
Have to give credit to the Compound

My Spiral Knight partner hates Greavers! Me not so much but you bring up an excellent point.

I should give credit to the Compound, it's the only level type that forced me to plan, and use everything at my disposal as you said. I saved up specific vials and barriers just for the dual key part. I used the dang shadow cloak as a sneak, which you don't need to do in other levels. I see players not using their battle sprites, using only one weapon type, and not using vials and barriers. In which case, the compound is difficult for most players because it catches them off guard. Nothing they have learned in other levels apply now. The mini enemies are the main threat. You can beat most other levels with just a sword and shield but not the Compound.

We all play differently however, I like playing the game differently instead changing my arsenal. I am used to my weapons, so changing to a bomb or even the same weapon but of a different family kinda gives me a disadvantage. I instead try to play smarter, I filter enemies, I change targets, I play more conservatively against minis or more aggressively against Greavers. For a bomb user, they can play more aggressively and take on the minis head on. For a gun user, I suggest my method of keeping them to a corner and staying clear of that corner, killing only strays that wander to close to your path.

The Compound is similar but not the same as the problem with Greavers. Greavers can be dealt with by changing your tactics. They're too fast, so running away won't solve the problem. For the Compound, a bomb won't necessarily solve the problem. You need a plan, you need to be good with everything you have and have a strategy for each. In the compound, you are not just changing your tactics, your changing your entire playstyle. In my case I adopted the new playstyle. It made me a better player, a better knight. And for that, I've gotta give the Compound credit, even though it made me cry.

I've added the "(closed)" part in the title of this Forum because I have made peace with the Compound and the minis.

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