Spiral Knights - Dreams and Nightmares plothole?

Dreams and Nightmares plothole?

12 replies [Last post]

Mon, 05/21/2018 - 09:58

Scissorblades

Spoiler alert: This post contains spoiler for those who haven't reached the 10-2 mission set.

So, I don't know if this has been pointed out before but the entire premise of the mission Dreams and Nightmares is that the core is opening and you and Vaelyn are entering it to find the Alpha Squad and see what Herex is up to with the Artifact.

When you play the King of Ashes or even regular Arcade you reach "The Core: The Path is Sealed" at Depth 28. However, in this one mission the entrance of the core is at Depth 25. Furthermore, the levels that are supposed to be within the core are at depths 26-29 when you would expect them to be 30+.

What exactly is going on here? Am I missing something or have I not discovered some insight that someone else has?

Also does anyone else experience tremendous FPS drops during that final battle of D&N?

Mon, 05/21/2018 - 13:10

Nitronicx

Technical stuff

I'd say the reason why it starts at depth 25 is purely technical. You usually move 1 depth lower with each elevator, so they organized the mission to roughly end around depth 30.

Other reason may be radiant drops. This way you need to make more progress before you get to those really lucrative boxes.

Finally, monsters' health (and presumably other mechanics as well) stop scaling after depth 30, so you could say that depth 30 is actually the final depth of the game.

But it's true they could do something so it looks more authentic. For example, in some levels your current depth simply displays as "???" and your gate map is disabled. There also seem to be a way to jump from deeper to shallower depth (this happens in Firestorm Citadel Shadow Lair). So there are ways to play around how you traverse through depths, but they are not used in Dreams & Nightmares at all for some reason.

Also, I remember that some people pointed out back when this mission came out that the Core doesn't actually open. The hatch is simply moved away a bit (to the south I think). You can notice some pipes being in different positions when you compare it to "The Core: The Path is Sealed".

Mon, 05/21/2018 - 15:06

Azuresh

Its so The Sanctuary can be at Depth 28 for reward reasons.

Also because i dont think depth 30 has any formula or existance in the files. Devs might have simply not bothered to make it.

Shadowplay has a similar issue : Charred Court and Smoldering Steps are in the same depth ( Actually, Smoldering Steps is a bit ABOVE charred court )

Mon, 05/21/2018 - 17:27

Bamzalot

Additional note...

Depth 30 is the deepest point in the game thus far, but it is only reached through Shroud of the Apocrea. By all means, Dreams and Nightmares could have brought us to depth 30. The terminal before entering the core could have been 29, as per usual, and then 30 could have made up the entirety of the core segments.

I assume the devs chose not to do this as a way to offer players breaks in between sections, limit the amount of processing within one level, and limit the rewards players could receive as they continue on. It just makes more sense from a technical and design point to not have the depth be the deepest, even if that does mess up the story of it.

I agree that it would have been more fitting as an ??? depth. Seems like a bit of an oversight to me.

Mon, 05/21/2018 - 21:10

Scissorblades

Expand the game, plz?

Hmm... Interesting.

I don't see why they would do that for technical reasons. I mean, D&N has no loot from monsters, just boxes, and with the difficulty of the level it should be guaranteed radiants, but i think you can still get shinings in the 1st two floors.

@Azuresh, the sanctuary is not part of D&N. And from what I understand, depth 30 is supposed to be the core itself, hence it cannot be a level. But like I said, the premise of this mission is that you enter the core so they had to have depths >30. Also, Charred court and smoldering steps aren't in Shadowplay, they magically disappear from FSC in this mission and the throne room moves up by a few floors, which is another plothole (which I think they did so that you could get 0 radiants from this mission, leaving only 2 missions in the game to get radiants from... grrr).

@Bamzalot, I failed to understand your point. I wasn't saying the entirety of D&N should be at depth 30. By all means, depth 30 is the entrance to the core. I was hoping that those depths would be 30+, so we could have that introductory speech with Vaelyn and Herex at D29, enter the core at 30, and then the three floors are at 31, 32, 33... maybe?

The reason Im saying this is because I was really hoping they advance the story and expand the game by making more levels, and too me opening a world of gameplay within the core seems to be a good idea. After all, the aesthetic of D&N is really unique: everything is white, no cube blocks - only spheres, ghost blocks and explosives are different, no loot, select types of monsters, buttons are hollow circles, SWARM!!! Also the BGM in this missions is a modified version of the theme and can't be found in any other level (if I'm not mistaken). This really helps give you the feeling that you are now fighting in a different place. You're not in the clockworks anymore. You're in the core. And having the Depths show familiar numbers while in an unfamiliar place seems really off to me.

As for the devs, I think they just did that because they were lazy. I'd rather they spend time on stuff like this instead of new boxes every few weeks because those are purely cosmetic and don't actually count as updates to the game.

Btw, I'm only presenting these ideas because I hope they advance the plot. It's a good one and I want to see how it continues... and ends. Hopefully it doesn't turn out that Herex is Rhendon disguised.

Mon, 05/21/2018 - 22:14

Flash-Flire

@Scissorblades

Just want to quickly correct you: it's Ashen Armory and Smoldering Steps that are missing. Charred Court is still in it.
(But there is a little snippet of I believe Smoldering Steps directly north of Charred Court, so that may be what Azuresh meant)

Tue, 05/22/2018 - 06:44

Azuresh

@Ze-Epik

Yes, im reffering to the fragments of Smoldering Steps ( And Ashen Armory too but i might be wrong ) north of CC.

Thu, 05/24/2018 - 15:41

Fangel

mostly technical

I believe this is a technical thing to allow monster health to not be unfair to players who have freshly reached end-game, as well as not make weapons lose power entering "stratum 7". That being said, having it be a "depth ???" would be more lore-friendly, even if the values remained the same.

Thu, 05/31/2018 - 19:59

Azuresh

@Fangel

If im not wrong, Shadow Lairs are deeper than their marked depth for rewarding reasons.

Couldn't they do it with The Core too? I mean, i really do preffer the " ??? ", but there is also this option.

Fri, 06/01/2018 - 12:53

Fangel

yes

They could make it deeper for more rewards, but not only would that ensure certain rarity drops (only radiants, not a bad thing), but it would also increase monster health beyond what is wanted. Perhaps the level is supposed to be at these depths from a gameplay standpoint for monster health, damage, etc, as well as a way to not make radiants show up beyond what is wanted (they still show up super frequently in the mission, which is why it's the best radiant mission in the game).

Besides, rank missions haven't always been the most consistent with the rest of the game. The royal jelly palace is 1 depth earlier in the mission than it is in the arcade, and this is to make the actual enemies easier for knights who are newly 3*.

Fri, 06/01/2018 - 13:09

#10

Azuresh

Also, something :

In the plot, the last mission ( D&N ) didn't happen during normal arcade gameplay. It feels... Quite weird.

Wed, 06/06/2018 - 13:24

#11

The-Blue-Salamandr

^ What do you mean?

Basically yes you can be sure it is Three Ring's making their work easier for themselves while not using the ' ??? ' when they should and must.

Unfortunately you have to always keep this in mind when we play the game, Three Rings Design were very lazy, especially Grey Havens. There are other areas that needs fixing with a bit of common sense *cough* revive system *cough*.

There are other examples of this, like how Auto-Target labels Vanaduke as a Fiend when he does not belong to a monster family, probably so he is neutral to elemental and weak to piercing. I guess it was easier to not put ' ? ' where it should be and, hope nobody notices / not care at all about things like lore. I mean come on, they already bothered to add damage type resistances for him.

Wed, 06/06/2018 - 19:59

#12

Azuresh

^@The-Blue-Salamandr

When you speak to Vaelyn on the regular arcade's Core Terminal, her dialogue indicates Dreams And Nightmares didn't happen yet.

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Dreams and Nightmares plothole?