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Some sword fixes that Zeddy thought of on the arcade discord that I liked

21 replies [Last post]
Fri, 08/10/2018 - 07:10
Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

Brandishes-

-Normal hits deal pure normal damage equal to leviathan blade
-Charged hit deals pure normal damage equal to leviathan blade charge
-Charged explosions deal elemental or shadow

Divine avenger / Gran Faust would follow suit

-Normal hits deal normal damage
-Normal charge hit
-Elemental or shadow charge projectiles

Fang of Vog

-all attacks are pure elemental

Flourishes-

-First hit (the swipe) deals normal damage

Why we think this would be healthy for the game

When the game first came out the meta was basically leviathan blade and divine avenger/gran faust.

This was because there were no arsenal stations, so leviathan blade hit hard on status stratums, where a sword like final flourish might encounter an entire depth of construct rendering it useless. Divine Avenger/Gran Faust on the other hand had split damage, allowing them to deal good damage against most things and incredible damage when powered up.

The brandishes entered the scene later when their charge was buffed to be reliable- instead of doing 2-5 charges they just always did 5. Meanwhile, divine avenger's charge got hit with a nerf, making it get stuck on everything nearby and dissipating to avoid cheesing levels like FSC.

These were all good changes, though they took away from what the game originally was about- preparing for a wide variety of situations. Zeddy's suggested changes hope to address this concern and reel back on the power that split damage presents.

Personally I like these changes because of how strong swords are for how little effort they take to use when starting out. When swords deal normal they become more of a utility and less of a crutch. You can still rely on them, they still do their job, but they aren't so powerful that you give up on crafting a variety of weapons just to have a brandish/flourish going.

Fri, 08/10/2018 - 23:31
#1
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

Yo, not everybody plays a charge oriented gameplay, people actually use the normal attacks on swords in case you didn't know. I find this suggestion interesting yet very horrible. A better idea would be to make two thirds normal damage and one third the other type but the explosions/projectiles would be pure non-normal, except for the flourishes which would stay piercing on all attacks, a lot of people use this sword for ONLY the first swipe. Fang of Vog would still have normal damage as well, making it pure elemental doesn't make sense. This would make swords better at what they do while making guns and bombs more viable due to their pure damage. Also a buff to Levinthian blade to match up to Acheron's damage would be so good to make it actually have a use since after these changes Acheron would just be way better at dealing damage to everything except slimes and gremlins. Although I'm a fan of using regular attacks, combos and rarely use charges except with Voltedge and I think this would hurt my playstyle, it's what should be done for the game balance IMO. But of that was to be done it can actually hurt lockdown amd forcing it into a pure Final Flourish and gum meta without using split damage swords at all since they'd do very little damage compared to before, some people would use Warmaster Rocket Hammer instead but not all people have luck rolling om it which can be somewhat unfair. And believe me when I say you DON'T want a whole lockdown lobby using Warmaster Rocket Hammer. It'd just be too annoying especially for the newer/higher-ping players. So yeah your suggestion is looking into making the whole sword role in PvE is using charge attacks while making them near completely useless in lockdown while my suggestion is looking into making them a bit more charge oriented without hurting them much but they'll also suffer in lockdown. So I propose another third suggestion, keep them as they are, this wouldn't make PvP solely charge-oriented and people wouldn't just use guns everywhere instead of swords and lockdown people will still use split damage swords. Sorry for the long post and thank you for reading it to the end. You should think about what you write before posting it and how it would affect the game and the players, your playstyle isn't the only one or other people's you know there is still a lot to learn.

Sat, 08/11/2018 - 07:11
#2
Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

A) Please break up your post into paragraphs so that I can understand it better.

B) Please be kind to me. Telling me to think about what I write as if I didn't feels bad.

Sat, 08/11/2018 - 09:45
#3
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

A. How long have you been complaining a out this for? xD
B. Sorry for that, it's just that most of your suggestions feel like a very good attempt at trash-posting.

Divine Avenger would COMPLETELY outperform Gran Faust as a heavy sword and nobody would craft the latter. Acheron would do EVEN MORE damage to beasts and fiends than Final Flourish. People would craft the elemental brandishes only for the charge attack. Fang of Vog would outperform all the elemental swords except Warmaster Rocket Hammer.

When you wrote this suggestion, you might've been drunk. If we're doing a competition for the worst suggestion ever you would certainly win with your suggestions.

Sat, 08/11/2018 - 13:01
#4
Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

I guess I'm just a terrible person with even worse ideas then.

Sat, 08/11/2018 - 13:42
#5
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

Don't worry, you're not a terrible person, your suggestions for this game are though.

Sat, 08/11/2018 - 14:53
#6
Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

This was Zeddy's idea I just liked it. How do you propose fixing the split normal problem? The 3/4 idea doesn't actually do anything but make the brandish stronger. Plus power creep. How would you deal with power creep on swords making them a crutch?

Also you should check out my discord game later on tonight. I want to know how I can improve it etc.

Sat, 08/11/2018 - 15:11
#7
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

I think the split damage mechanic is balanced as it is, it's working as intended, most swords shouldn't be much weaker against resistant enemies compared to guns which offer way more safety at the expense of having pure damage being a lot weaker if you select the wrong gun for your situation. Swords are designed to be powerhouses of damage in a hack 'n slash playstyle, if you don't like it I suggest you play a different game where swords are all the same with only minor differences.
I don't think I understand what you mean by power creep and crutch.

Also regarding the discord, PM me on that my name is Geo, I believe I have you added already.

Sat, 08/11/2018 - 15:58
#8
Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

It's ok to be nice when disagreeing.

Sat, 08/11/2018 - 16:15
#9
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

Sorry I can't express my opinion without sounding passive aggressive, that's kinda a part of who I am. Hence the name.

Sat, 08/11/2018 - 17:08
#10
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

I'd like to adress this bit specifically:

Acheron would do EVEN MORE damage to beasts and fiends than Final Flourish.

The entire point is that no, that would be fixed. If there was a pure damage brandish out there, would the damage be lower, higher, or equal to Levi?
You can easily guess the answer by comparing CIV and Amputator.

The conversion to pure damage comes with the implied change of lowering total damage of split swords and/or buffing existing pure damage swords.

Regarding Brandishes; If you don't play a charge-oriented playstyle, what's the difference between Combuster and Voltedge? Not a thing. You just have 5 identical swords where two do shadow damage and one just has more damage than the rest for seemingly no reason. If this change happened, people with your playstyle would abandon these charge-oriented swords because flourish would do the same damage but the 1/4 of the swords' attack that's relevant to you has more range on it. And what's more, it could be used against all families of enemies!

Divine and Faust are weirder. They could be pure elemental and shadow, it'd fit the glowy ghost sword thematics and it seems weird for there to only exist two pure damage swords (all the flourishes are one sword).

Sun, 08/12/2018 - 00:55
#11
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

I'm a hardcore brandish single-switcher and I want them do to actual shadow/elemental damage, I rarely ever use the charge of Acheron I don't want to abandon it because it's good at what it does which is giving me a pure hack 'n slash experience. I'll tell you this one last time, this suggestion is entirely stupid and will just harm the community and would even make people quit cause the game would become boring and the UV's they rolled on some of the awesome swords would be as useless as these swords, also I charge my Voltedge a lot compared to Acheron, it's that I play both with it charge and normal attacks. If you think having the game being "balanced" like that it's just gonna become boring and almost all swords would be the same. I use Acheron because I don't usually use its charge but people who choose Obsidian Edge over it do use the charge and the normal attacks as well. Leviathan Blade and the troikas are designed to be all around doing good damage while the split damage types are designed to do great damage to some monsters, not too little to other monsters and decent to others. While the flourishes and Warmaster Rocket Hammer are designed for certain monsters doing great damage to some (not too great for flourishes to balance out their speed), decent damage to some and horrible damage to others because their playstyle is different. Levi is a starter sword, making all swords the same would just make people only use it especially with the damage buff you're suggesting, troika is designed to hit a lot of enemies at once with both the normal and charge attacks it can't get pure damage or it would be overpowered concerning its charge. You're just messing with the game's balance even more. I don't know how much I should keep going just to make you understand that this is a completely horrible idea in every way.

Sun, 08/12/2018 - 05:41
#12
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

Leviathan Blade and the troikas are designed to be all around doing good damage while the split damage types are designed to do great damage to some monsters, not too little to other monsters and decent to others.

The game doesn't work like this, though. The split swords do more damage to 4 out of 6 families. Probably 6 out of 6 if you consider the split heavy swords being faster than Suda.

While i agree that my hastily sketched out suggestions (that I didn't even submit here) wouldn't be well received and may not be the best way to solve it, do you at least agree that there is a problem here in need of solving?

Sun, 08/12/2018 - 07:42
#13
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

I only see the family specific swords as underpowered, they should have split normal + damage type the targeted family is weak against. Other than that I see brandishes and sealed swords as kinda balanced compared to troika and levi since they fill different roles and shouldn't be compared in most cases. As you see the levi and troika's charges taget a very large area so they should be used to hit more monsters at least if used right, brandishes and sealed swords hit less areas and they have more limits than the two other swords for example the explosions that come out can't cross caps and won't hit a stationary target multiple times while the sealed sword's charged swords can't spawn if you're close to a wall.

And yes, sealed swords do more damage and are faster than troikas but do they cover the same range? Each of them fill different roles and although they are comparable in these roles there are still specific scenarios where you'll want to pick the inferior one over the other like fighting tortos for example. Although these scenarios don't justify picking one over the other for the whole game there are still other reasons, maybe you like the charge better. Personally I only use my Voltedge's charge inside a vortex if there's no vortex I keep single switching it in close range or double switch it with storm driver. It's cause I use it mainly for its damage rather than the charge. And no, I don't use it anywhere outside of FSC because my Arcana and Storm Driver do a better job at killing stuff outside of a vortex without having to charge a lot which keeps me from being bored.

Another good example of using the inferior weapon would be arcade in general, you can be too lazy or maybe you're going in a place full of compounds or whatever and you don't wanna bring 2 different swords to save slots for your bombs and guns so you take a normal damage sword. I personally take Nitronome to fill that role while my other slots are usually Acheron and a blaster + something that I'm heating or Blitz.

Sun, 08/12/2018 - 10:12
#14
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

And yes, sealed swords do more damage and are faster than troikas but do they cover the same range?

That depends on whether you compare just the combo or also the charge attacks. If you compare just the combo, then the covered area is identical.

If you also compare charge attacks, Troika covers a small area while Divine covers half the screen.

Sun, 08/12/2018 - 13:25
#15
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

Wait wut, I thought troikas had a bit more range on the normal combos, but well seems like I was wrong. Troikas still do more damage on the charges tho, on neutral targets at least, right? IDK but wait don't they do the same damage against neutral targets (I just looked at the wiki numbers)? Except that the suda charge might do more damage than Divine Avenger's. The Triglav can't be compared to them since it's usually used to lock enemies in place to deliver some hard hits rather than knocking them back or maybe crowd control I guess. Ok, so I haven't really used the troikas so that's just based on what I usually see. Also don't the troikas to more damage on stationary targets with their charge? If they have the same damage on neutral targets, and their charges are unique to their own why are you upset with them now? I can't really see any problem with it being like that. As I told you the only problem regarding swords IMO is the family specific swords not being powerful enough for their roles and normal weapons can actually out-damage them in most cases, they all look so much cooler than their superior variants, it's a waste that they don't perform as cool as they look TBH.

Sun, 08/12/2018 - 15:51
#16
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

Going by depth 28 numbers, Suda's charge is 427 + 468, adding up to 895 damage.

This is sometimes more than DA. Let's look at when.

First we'll subtract the outright 600 from hitting with the sword's swing, leaving us with 295 damage. Each time the three gigantic, piercing, multihitting, screen-covering projectiles hit an enemy, they do 141 damage.

295 / 141 = 2.09

If the ghost projectiles hit more than 3 times, DA did more damage than Suda. The problem gets worse with more damage bonus because split damage weapons have more underlying damage to boost, which is the entire motivation behind this thread.

Sun, 08/12/2018 - 16:23
#17
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

Wait, so you're saying that damage buffs buff split damage weapons more than pure damage ones? How so? If you mean against targets that are weak to the secondary damage type then it's fair but if the gross buff is more then that's unfair and should be fixed.

Also there are more factors to compare other than just damage, there's the wall glitch and monsters that dodge or shield against projectiles, and maybe you wanna target a specific area, etc... For example a suda charge would be.more effective on a mecha knight rather than a divine avenger charge or an elemental brandish charge despite them having the damage type advantage. You really shouldn't compare that aspect. Or you can just buff/nerf all charges to deal comparable damage ignoring the startup frames, reach, hitboxes, monster reactions and other factors that should be taken into account when comparing charges.

Sun, 08/12/2018 - 16:44
#18
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

Wait, so you're saying that damage buffs buff split damage weapons more than pure damage ones? How so?

It's because split damage weapons have more damage. You can try for yourself to attack Lost Souls, enemies that have 0 defense, with various weapons. Alternatively, check the chart where I tested every single damage value for every single weapon for depth 24:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zOFWP76vJPj7iTcPlqSTE8iXyMYjv1WP...

As you can see, the max damage charge hit from Sudaruska does 531 + 692 while Acheron/Divine does 1000 + 465 per ghost sword hit. Damage bonus is a percentage based on raw damage before defense is subtracted. As you might imagine, 24% of 807 is more than 24% of 743 (no bonus charge damage for DA and Suda).

It's true that weapons are more than their damage, but more damage also means more flinching and less time you risk getting hit by the enemy. DA is also faster with a stronger, safer charge attack that covers a larger area and persists for a larger time and doesn't leave you completely exposed to enemy retaliation for multiple seconds.

Would you rather bring Suda or DA/GF to a Shadow Lair? Which one would you bring to a completely new mission you've never tried before?

Sun, 08/12/2018 - 23:48
#19
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

I thought troikas' charges were the strongest among swords on neutral targets TBH, seems like thinking that literally a mountain hitting you directly overhead doesn't do as much damage as a swipe from a holy sword. I think we can fix this problem by taking damage from the explosion it makes and put it into the swing, or better yet, buff the charge damage altogether.

Well, I didn't know they had more gross damage, in that case, why don't we just buff the normal damage weapons to do as much damage, on regular hits at least. I didn't know the charge of the suda was this weak cause usually it blows monsters completely out of the way and its hitbox looked enormous to me whenever someone used it. But it still has a massive amount of knockback, this might possibly balance out the damage.

But let's just put the charges aside for a sec and get back to the topic, so you say for example divine avenger has 6 elemental damage and 6 normal damage while suda has like 10 normal damage? Is that what you're trying to say? If that's it, it's probably of how weird defenses work in this game where monsters need to be hit with a certain amount of force and maybe any less won't do as much damage as intended? IDK anything about defense TBH it's so weird but I think it has something to do with that. If that's the case then just buff all the normal swords rather than nerfing all the split damage swords AND buffing the normal swords. The buff should be just enough to match the split damage weapons at max damage which means that troikas and Levi will have more damage without any damage bonuses against neutral targets, but when you add damage bonuses to the max the damage would be the same, basically making normal damage swords superior when it comes to new game or non chaos/black kat players. Thoughts on this?

Mon, 08/13/2018 - 02:05
#20
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

You've got the gist of it, but I'll explain just in case. Let's say we've got an enemy neutral to shadow, in this example he'll have:

  • 100 shadow defense
  • 100 normal defense.

We've got our heavy normal damage sword, Smasheron, with 400 damage. You attack the enemy and they take 400 - 100 = 300 damage.

Now we use your heavy split-shadow sword, Cursebuster, with 250 normal and shadow damage.

You attack the enemy and they take 250 - 100 + 250 - 50 = 500 - 200 = 300 damage.

Superficially, the swords seem equal. But what happens when we add max damage, 24% bonus?

Smasheron:
400 * 1.24 = 496
496 - 100 = 396

Smasheron effectively got 32% stronger.

Cursebuster:
250 * 1.24 = 310
310 - 100 + 310 - 100 = 620 - 200 = 420

Cursebuster effectively got 40% stronger.

But there's more to the problem! Compare the damage values for Divine Avenger and Sudaruska for depth 1. Notice that Suda is stronger. In fact, there's a split damage 1* weapon, hot edge, which is weaker than 1* normal weapons against effective targets.

If you just increased the amount of damage for pure normal weapons, they'd become overpowered in lower tiers, shifting the disruption of balance to a different part of the game. That's why I think there are only three options:

  1. Remove split damage entirely (this suggestion thread
  2. Make every sword split damage (flourish would become normal/piercing, Levi could potentially become normal/normal)
  3. Rewrite the formula for handling damage

But in all three of those cases, the damage values between swords would need to be evened out.

Mon, 08/13/2018 - 04:08
#21
Zero-Chill's picture
Zero-Chill
meow

Hmmm, having 2 damage bars for all swords... That's actually a really good idea that I've never thought of but please leave the flourishes and warmaster rocket hammer do piercing/piercing and elemental/elemental, you don't really need to mess with that. #1 is just so bad as I've been explaining for the whole thread and #3 might be a bit too complicated so yeah #2 is the best, props to you for coming up with it.

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