Spiral Knights - Cutters.... the worst sword line in the game

Cutters.... the worst sword line in the game

15 replies [Last post]

Thu, 11/15/2018 - 00:46

Holy-Nightmare

Ok... I know a lot of you might take offense to this since you probably really like them... but lets go over them from the standpoint of the whole line

At 2* and 3* you have a sword with:
Multiple hits which combos well if you have a Maskeraith pet
Lots of pushing power for cornering or positioning enemies
A cool animation which certainly makes it appealing to new players
A short timer for it's charge attack
-
Low flinch chance vs most enemies, even on the charge
Comparatively low damage, even though the DPS for most swords is relatively balanced the playstyle this weapon is most safely used with forces the player to have to cancel their full combo to avoid hits
The charge attack roots you to the ground while you attack (which combined with the low flinch chance means you WILL take damage from something)
The animation from the combo can obscure your view to enemies preparing to attack

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After this you have a choice of two lines, both normal damage....

DVS has the same problems that the earlier versions have along with a low chance to poison the enemy (which is nearly pointless if you have a Maskeraith).
While poison is probably one of the best statuses in the game for countering healers this sword has unreliable chance and short range compared to other poison weapons.

WHB also has a lot of the same problems but also has a boost to damage against Beasts...
The biggest boost to this weapon is an unwritten one.... even though it is small.... the charge attack can Flinch enemies very easily (though it still roots you to the ground and leaves you open to attack from other enemies)

Basically if you use this weapon you are going to get hit by something or you are going to be forced to play so defensive that it ruins the damage output and you'd be better with any other normal damage weapon.

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Long story short this is the worst sword line in the game
(aside from those early game weapons that only go to 2*)

You would be better off crafting a Winmillion than one of these

If Grey Havens wishes to buff this line I would add a little more damage, a little higher flinch chance, and a 360 degrees AOE for the charge attack along with flinch chance... maybe even add type damage to each of these instead of just pure normal

Thu, 11/15/2018 - 04:56

Bopp

hmm

I agree that these are some of the weakest swords in the game. I'm not sure that Winmillion is better. I can't seem to get my Winmillion to do any damage.

The Cutter-line swords are kind of fun, though. The game is a better place for having them, weird as they are.

Thu, 11/15/2018 - 07:01

Tpen-Five-Fun

I like cutter but for

I like cutter but for gimmicks only, I agree winmillion is better than cutter lines.
Also what if cutters have msi bonus.

I also have some hopes (0.01%) for a 5* elemental/shadow winmillion.
It would also be awesome if its charge attack would push targets along with the projectile and spawns a small vortex after the bullet dissipates :)

Thu, 11/15/2018 - 07:41

Solanales

Winmillion is definitely worse than a cutter. It shares damage values with a 4* cutter, but it's a lot slower and has a shorter combo on the regular swings. Winmillion's charge is also extremely buggy with ASI, and if you cancel the charge animation, you can accidentally prevent the bullet from spawning. The hitbox of the regular bullet is narrower than a sword swing and is less effective vs. multiple monsters.

I'd still rank Cutters as pretty low-tier, but at least above Winmillion and maybe Troikas. A pretty common suggestion is turning WHB into pure Piercing (and also removing the attack speed penalty it has vs. DVS). If nothing else, cutters are fun, and they take care of PK pretty handily.

Thu, 11/15/2018 - 11:00

Zero-Chill

meow

Cutters' only weaknesses are the flinch chance and short range, other than that, the weapon is pretty fun and effective. Of course they won't excel in every single task but they are perfect for what they're used for.

Kats: These monsters get hit by every single slash and ghost slash since they float and aren't affected by knockback from swords much which makes this sword the best for killing Kats just after WRH.

Wolvers: Although Acheron is best for them due to its higher damage even more than FF and BTB due to their overall lower damage and their annoying knockback which lowers' the DPS, cutters are also pretty good for cornering and dishing out good amounts of damage against them before they teleport.

Chromalists: They aren't affected by sword knockback as much as other mobsters but not on Kats' level and sometimes jump unpredictably so a mix between Kats and Wolvers where the cutters excel at fighting.

Jelly King, Punkin King and Vana's mask: Good DPS, poison and the ability to track targets while comboing makes them perfect for these large slow or kinda hectic-moving monsters.

Snarbolax: Can dish out a good amount of damage between phases.

Thu, 11/15/2018 - 16:54

Goldentaile

Winmillion is definetly the worse sword

Lets be real, here. I've field tested Winmillion everywhere, it has no good use. I tried in jelly king, arcade, all the other bosses. It does not do enough substantial damage and gets me killed all the time with its narrow strikes. However, DVS Is very effective.

Thu, 11/15/2018 - 17:07

Skepticraven

↑↑↓↓←→←→ba

I use DVS all the time against mortarfires. Very high utility for making them drop their shield after 1 attack.
I typically never use any other swords strategically (including all brandishes) simply because guns deal more or equal damage at substantially increased safety.

Thu, 11/15/2018 - 22:13

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

They actually have somewhat similar DPS compared to the elemental brandishes. The issue of course is that they require you to land both hits consistently, lack any kind of safe and easy area of effect and never hit for more than neutral damage. They have about the same DPS where it matters- at maxed out damage, with poison (DVS) or effectiveness (Combuster). Personally I would recomend giving the player a 10 second attack bonus of 1.2x whenever they successfully use DVS's charge to hit something. This 20% increase would make a monumental difference against things like deadnauts- step one, charge against a turret or something that won't hurt you, step two, mask cloak + position + no more deadnaut, for example.

I've collected most of the relevant damage numbers from the guild training hall in T3. For these numbers I used a neutral target and poison from venom veilor as well as from dvs at max damage and max asi. Highlighted are the most relevant damage numbers, which are very similar.

Combuster Damage (full combo): 1048
Combuster Damage (full combo vs vv poison): 1159
Combuster Damage (full combo vs dvs poison): 1217
Combuster Damage (VS effective, no poison): 1231
Combuster Damage (VS effective, vv poison): 1315
Combuster Combos Per Minute: about 34
DPS: 593.9
DPS w/ vv poison: 656.8
DPS w/ dvs poison: 689.6
DPS vs effective, no poison: 697.6
DPS vs effective, venom veilor: 745.2

Dread Venom Striker Damage (full combo): 1318
Dread Venom Striker Damage (fulll combo vs vv poison): 1527
Dread Venom Striker Damage (full combo vs dvs poison): 1563
Dread Venom Striker Combos Per Minute: about 27
DPS: 593.1
DPS w/ vv poison: 687.15
DPS w/ dvs poison: 703.4

Fri, 11/16/2018 - 00:12

Zero-Chill

meow

@Fehzor
Deadly shadow cloak removes all ths bonuses you have after uncloaking.

Fri, 11/16/2018 - 19:16

Bopp

depth 23 vs. depth 24

Lancer Knightz have pretty different damage results from you, Promos-Are-Content. The last table on that page shows ASI+6 and damage+6, just like yours. The difference is that they're at depth 24 and you're at depth 23. They also have 29 combos per minute for DVS and 39 combos per minute for Combuster.

Against neutral targets, the DPS is 652 vs. 697 without poisoning. Not much of a difference, I agree, especially once poison is taken into account.

Against vulnerable targets, Combuster's DPS increases to 825, which is quite larger than 652. (And the combo completes more quickly and the charge is a viable tool and spreads fire.)

Sat, 11/17/2018 - 07:02

#10

Jollysapper

The cutter lacks in solo but is fine in for a group.

On an old character back when I logged on through kongregate I worked up to a dread venom striker.

It was fun to solo with it on the lower tiers but was lacking on the higher tiers.

However, it did have a use when I was running in a group with players that had more DPS maximized equipment sets. I could hang back, fire a few charged voltaic shots and then use the striker and shield bump to try to nudge enemies away from the artillery while they do the majority of the enemy dispatching.

Alternatively, I could run in a group of lower tiered players and use the striker to keep from dominating the battlefield and denying the other players the practice while still able to support them by keeping enemies knocked away from the other teams.

Sat, 11/17/2018 - 17:41

#11

Bopp

You sound like a good teammate. But this sounds like a story about your shield, not a story about DVS/WHB.

This is not an endorsement of DVS/WHB at all.

Sun, 11/18/2018 - 22:20

#12

Holy-Nightmare

For those saying the Winmillion is worse... I'm talking from the perspective of 4* vs 4* not 4* vs 5*

The overall DPS may be the same but the fact you get flinch chance, have a more reliable combo, and a charge attack that doesn't leave you open to damage.... Winmillion wins.

It too has it's flaws but it won't get you killed as easily....

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Cutters are bad for new players... generally for them they can just spam regular attacks with their Brandish, Calibur, or Spur and will reliable flinch that enemy before they get attacked back only having to retreat when other enemies are near..... the Cutter with it's unreliable flinch will have them take damage from an enemy that so far in the game they have been told (by every single melee thus far) is practically helpless to their onslaught...

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And the numbers aren't everything either, saying that cutters have comparable DPS to other swords is moot when the playstyle doesn't allow it....

Mon, 11/19/2018 - 02:00

#13

Solanales

Vile Striker also beats Winmillion in terms of DPS. The difference between 4* and 5* is generally marginal with few, notable exceptions. In the case of cutters, it's about 10 damage per click (swing + ghost swing) in Tier 3, with DMG +6. For comparison, the net damage of a click, through neutral defenses, is roughly 250.

I agree that it's harder to use a cutter as a new player. But as someone used to swording, I'd absolutely take Vile Striker (and probably even Hunting Blade) over Winmillion any day. And I dunno about you, but I find it pretty simple to just bait out an attack and unload a cutter combo on an enemy.

Thu, 12/20/2018 - 15:52

#14

Fangel

oh boi

I hardly ever come into this subforum, but I've already looked over the front pages elsewhere so now I'm here.

And I see my baby cutter being sadfaced.

The thing about cutters is that they cannot be used like a normal sword, however their playstyle is strangely similar to that of a warmaster rocket hammer, and you need to know how to control your auto target.

Cutters are also some of the only weapons in the game that goes from a very bland sword to becoming a powerhouse of a sword with every type of combat boost. MSI, ASI, and DMG are all equally important for cutters, which means for best results you want to have these maxed out as best as possible. Other weapons, such as rocket hammer and brandishes, you only really need either ASI or CTR.

Because of this, I actually do not recommend cutters to new players. They are an investment sword, and is the perfect sword for the "black kat + swiftstrike" meta due to the increased attack speed, movement speed, and damage being natural.

Cutters also rely heavily on controlling your footing, and knowing when and how to use a charge attack. Cutters should never be charged as an offensive measure, you must bait your target to attack before unleashing a charge attack. At that point, using cutter charges is very safe - with zero CTR on my DVS outside its natural charge time, I've made use of its abilities easily and reliably.

Thu, 12/20/2018 - 18:58

#15

Bopp

it works

Yes, you can play the game with Cutters. Yes, you can charge them if you time the charge well.

But it doesn't refute the thesis of the thread. You can also play the game with other weapons, including charging them. And they do more damage under typical conditions, and the charge is safer, so it doesn't require as much prep time, and the knockback is useful, and so on.

I enjoy Cutters. They force me to play differently. But they are indeed some of the weaker swords in the game.

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Cutters.... the worst sword line in the game