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Three Rings will not reimburse compromised accounts.

39 replies [Last post]
Mon, 06/20/2011 - 18:20
Omegacalgar
Legacy Username

I am putting this here because this has happened to a few of my friends, not in Spiral Knights but in other cash shop games. Sadly though Three Rings has the same policy regarding compromised/hacked accounts, basing sole responsibility to the player. http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Account_security

Also terms of service section 9. Your Account is Your Responsibility. The first line is: You are solely responsible and entirely liable for all activities conducted through your account and/or your User ID, even if your account has been compromised through no fault of your own. Also with steam integration bypassing a need for a password makes it easier for 3rd parties to access your information which is implied in the last line of section 9. http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Terms_of_Service#9._Your_Account_is_Your_R...

What this means is that if you pay money to enjoy this game, your money is not safe or guaranteed. Three Rings itself can be compromised and the players accounts can be hacked and will not be reimbursed. I think most of us know about Sony right? The way I see it is that it's a bank without FDIC backing.

Pay money at your own risk, you will not get your stuff back if something goes wrong.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 18:30
#1
Sunless's picture
Sunless
Thank you for this completely

Thank you for this completely arbitrary and obvious information.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 18:42
#2
Dogrock's picture
Dogrock
You mean exactly the same as

You mean exactly the same as the Steam agreement you already agreed to?

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 18:46
#3
Omegacalgar
Legacy Username
Yes and no

Arbitrary? Totally. Obvious? I don't think so. It doesn't feel right to me and it will happen to someone.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 18:48
#4
Sunless's picture
Sunless
Obvious? I don't think

Obvious? I don't think so

"Hey guys. If you put your private information on the internet, there's always the chance that someone will get it."

Yeah, that's not obvious at all.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 18:54
#5
Madadder's picture
Madadder
http://www.escapistmagazine.c

i just feel like sharing...
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3306-NOT-a-Sec...

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 18:59
#6
Omegacalgar
Legacy Username
So what I am getting from you

So what I am getting from you guys, is that you don't want to reimbursed if something of yours gets taken? Watching extra credits atm, will respond after.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 19:01
#7
Malicus
I think what we're saying is

I think what we're saying is that that is in pretty much every ToS ever, so... what's one to do?

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 19:03
#8
Madadder's picture
Madadder
its not that its that its to

its not that, its that its to b expected...

business is always like that.... sad but its reality

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 19:13
#9
Omegacalgar
Legacy Username
Okay so, we accept what is

Okay so, we accept what is wrong with reality and deal with it and live on. Or we change it. I feel that providing an ability to be reimbursed is the correct thing to do. And your right, the words "no refunds" strike me as normal, but now realizing its exactly the same thing as what I feel is wrong with these TOS, I feel that isn't right. Provide a service or product, but leave them to dry? Thanks for the insight guys.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 19:15
#10
Madadder's picture
Madadder
they dont want to lose money

they dont want to lose money regardless of anything

its the reason i get store credit rather than a refund

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 19:20
#11
Franker
Legacy Username
OP: It's much easier to blend

OP: It's much easier to blend in with the sheep, then it is to stand tall and back your words. Welcome to life. Many people you meet in this world, turn a blind eye to things everyday, to avoid dealing with the gravity of the reality.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 19:23
#12
Sunless's picture
Sunless
Oh, sure. Let's go and change

Oh, sure. Let's go and change every Terms of Service ever! Row, row, fight da powah!

Oh wait, we can't. Because the ToS is the equivalent to a disclaimer and cannot be changed unless the company wants it to be. It is also used to protect the company themselves while providing a profitable service. It's simply the way the world works; don't get up in arms of such things. Simply deal with it.

Or fight a losing battle. Your choice. The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

Edit: Dear lord... Saying that just made me realize how old I am. What happened to me? Geez.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 19:23
#13
kiroanknight
Legacy Username
When I park my car in a

When I park my car in a garage there's a little sign saying it's not their fault if objects within said car are damaged or stolen.
When I go paragliding I sign a little waiver that says if there's a freak lightning bolt and I get zapped, it's not their fault.

Virtually every place you go has a similar sign, this is much the same. It's not even just an MMO thing, it's a common business sense thing to cover your (removed). It doesn't even mean, necessarily, that they won't reimburse you, it means they have a legal aid to saying that they don't have to.

Edit: language, please. Thanks.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 19:44
#14
Omegacalgar
Legacy Username
So if Three Rings wont

So if Three Rings wont provide a reimbursement, (getting money back), they can at least restore the items of the character, do a roll back. I am passionate about this because one of my friends played a different cash shop game. He put at least 200 dollars in it. Played since the game's beta till now. His account got hacked and he lost all of his stuff. Now the company wont reimburse him or restore his items.

My own personal experience is with World of Warcraft. My account got hacked and I lost all my stuff, but in two days I got it all back after I made a ticket about it. I haven't read the Blizzard TOS completely but I don't remember a sole responsibility clause. Unless someone can point that to me.

I guess because I seen good come from a company I expect all companies to be like that.

My other issue I see is that unlike stuff happening in the real world, I can't "insure" my online account.

The difference I see is that I can insure my car from being stolen, or my house from being burglarized. (My parents house did get burglarized but they reimbursed our stuff)

There is no protection like that that I know of right now online, just prevention. Except in my own experience, Blizzard.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 19:47
#15
Madadder's picture
Madadder
omega how do they know what

omega how do they know what stuff has been taken or who is just trying to commit fraud a roll back would punish everyone instead of the affected

WoW is P2P they got to do that or they lose more than some cheap chunks of data, your monthly subscription fee. meanwhile SK is a f2p technically and so they cant be as forgiving

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:02
#16
Omegacalgar
Legacy Username
In word of warcraft there is

In word of warcraft there is log, that the players don't see. If you provide the time period when you got hacked. (Example I got hacked July 12th) They can look at the log around that time period and see that your character mass deleted/ traded all their items to someone else. So they rollback (just your character) and wallah you have your stuff back.

Even though this game is F2P there should be a database that holds onto your character information. If that is true that means they could just look at it, and see what items you had before you got hacked. At least that's is what I assume. It is just data, right?

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:07
#17
Madadder's picture
Madadder
u assume the same log exists

u assume the same log exists in SK for all we know their server only has our current character data not a log of all we have done with it

anyway i dont know what they have or if the log of our activities exists

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:12
#18
Richy's picture
Richy
What Replicant said.

What Replicant said.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:27
#19
kiroanknight
Legacy Username
No Ownership Rights in

No Ownership Rights in Account.

NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY HEREIN, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU SHALL HAVE NO OWNERSHIP OR OTHER PROPERTY INTEREST IN ANY ACCOUNT STORED OR HOSTED ON A BLIZZARD SYSTEM, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY BNET ACCOUNT OR WORLD OF WARCRAFT ACCOUNT, AND YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ALL RIGHTS IN AND TO SUCH ACCOUNTS ARE AND SHALL FOREVER BE OWNED BY AND INURE TO THE BENEFIT OF BLIZZARD.
Account Suspension/Deletion.

BLIZZARD MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE ANY BNET ACCOUNT OR WORLD OF WARCRAFT ACCOUNT AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU. For purposes of explanation and not limitation, most account suspensions, terminations and/or deletions are the result of violations of this Terms of Use or the EULA.

What was that you were saying about Blizzard's EULA?

Not playing a "Who's got the sketchiest ToS" game here, but the point is that they DON'T necessarily act on it. It's just to give them the legal option of saying screw you in case something does happen, and to leave it to their discretion on a case by case basis how to respond.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:29
#20
Omegacalgar
Legacy Username
I don't think that is the

I don't think that is the same as this?

9. Your Account is Your Responsibility. You are solely responsible and
entirely liable for all activities conducted through your account and/or
your User ID, even if your account has been compromised through no fault of
your own. Three Rings encourages you to maintain the confidentiality of your
password, and reminds you that you do not have a license to let others use
your account. You agree to notify Three Rings immediately in the event your
password is lost, stolen, disclosed or compromised. It is not Three Rings'
policy to ask for your password online, and Three Rings suggests that you
never respond to an on-line request for your password. You acknowledge that
although the Site, Services and/or Games may offer a feature that allows you
to "remember" your password and thereby bypass the password protection, this
feature makes it possible for third parties to access your account and User
ID. Three Rings strongly discourages the use of the password bypass feature,
which will in any event be at your own risk.

But it basically means that you have no rights to the account. So they have no obligation to restore my stuff is what I think is being implied.

But they did. And I believe that you said earlier "It doesn't even mean, necessarily, that they won't reimburse you, it means they have a legal aid to saying that they don't have to."

So you are right. They didn't have to, but they did.

Difference with Three Rings is : In addition, items or currency lost from the compromised account will not be returned or reimbursed.
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Account_security#I_Was_Hacked.21__What_Do_...

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:34
#21
kiroanknight
Legacy Username
You missed two things in

You missed two things in that. One: Wiki info is at best a distillation and not official word, nor directly part of the ToS.
Two: The full context is: "If Three Rings does not have billing information, the account name, and a correct email address registered to your account, it may be impossible to verify your identity, and the account may not be returned to you. In addition, items or currency lost from the compromised account will not be returned or reimbursed."
These two sentences are in fact linked, logically. Context suggests that them not restoring anything in the second sentence is a direct result of them being unable to verify your identity as per the first.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:38
#22
drmchsr0
Legacy Username
Strange. CE notwithstanding,

Strange.

CE notwithstanding, how would ANYONE try to steal items? I mean, the binding's there for a reason, yes?

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:41
#23
kiroanknight
Legacy Username
Rare materials and such, I

Rare materials and such, I guess?

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:42
#24
Richy's picture
Richy
I would have to say if you

I would have to say if you don't agree with the terms, you can always not play the game. Seems like the most logical answer.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:43
#25
Omegacalgar
Legacy Username
So if point one is right,

So if point one is right, that means there is nothing guaranteeing item return. So I hope point two is correct. I would rather be wrong about what I said than right knowing I wont get my stuff back if hacked. Thanks for pointing that out.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:44
#26
Ightex
Did you know that most

Did you know that most hackers are able to hack accounts simply because the person in question wasn't using a strong-enough password? Some can use code breaker programs, but that would take days, depending on how complicated your password is. And days just to compromise one random person's account? I don't think (unless they have no life) someone would not invest that much time in that just to make one person's life a living hell.

Protip: Strengthen your passwords.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:50
#27
Omegacalgar
Legacy Username
I agree 60% and disagree 40%

I agree 60% and disagree 40% The 60% of me says yes that is logical, don't play the game. The 40% of me says, the game is fun I want to play it, but I would rather play with less risk. I think that is an acceptable position.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 20:54
#28
Sunless's picture
Sunless
the game is fun I want to

the game is fun I want to play it, but I would rather play with less risk.

It seems you're being driven by paranoia rather than logic; OOO is not obligated to roll-back anything for you and your account is your responsibility - same applies to pretty much every MMORPG. However, that doesn't mean they wouldn't. You just seem to be implying that because they might not help if you get screwed over, it's best not to play at all. How about the 3rd option of doing your best not to get screwed over to begin with? That's really the only thing anyone can do.

However, I respect your position if you choose not to play due to the aforementioned wariness.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 21:10
#29
Omegacalgar
Legacy Username
I think this is a good time

I think this is a good time to close. So what I learned from this is. TOS are mostly their for business protection. They do not have an obligation to help but can. It is your duty as an individual protect yourself as much as possible and take what risks you deem are necessary. I have made my decision and I will not play this game. Thanks for your time, people who posted and read. How do you delete your account with Steam?

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 21:12
#30
Ightex
I also don't think you can

I also don't think you can compare SK's ability to reimburse items the way WoW can. WoW has had the time and support to be able to do something as advanced as rollbacks, while SK is still starting out, is essentially free-to-play, and what they could do with rollbacks now would most likely be used in other areas of the game. To attend to every person foolish enough to have their accounts compromised would not just add workload to their side (and I think I remember reading that the development team isn't even more than ten strong) but would affect the players negatively somehow gamewise.

So you do or you don't, but I don't tihnk you'll change Three Ring's policy regardless.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 21:33
#31
reaver456
Legacy Username
well lets see what happens

well lets see what happens when they lose the data for your character either by getting hacked them selves or their servers some how actually getting physically destroyed. You will be crying for sure. If you payed that is

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 21:44
#32
Senshi
Legacy Username
Hnhh...

Blanket policies of 'we can do anything for any and no reason and you have no rights even though you paid us money' are... well, obnoxious and not legally enforceable. When money is tendered for goods and services, the company providing them has to provide them in good faith or open themselves to lawsuit... I suspect you pretty much have to be misbehaving or the company has to be going out of business for them to shut you out or they're opening themselves to a lawsuit the same way that you can't, say, sell a coffee-maker that doesn't have a heating element and point at a fine-print disclaimer that it may not work and that's you're problem. Though the laws around -goods- are much more consumer friendly than those around -services-... there are still laws! I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the laws around goods though, so I oughtn't speculate on exactly -where- the line is, just that there -is- a line, somewhere beyond arbitrarily closing accounts to lighten server load or for the fun of making the noobs scream ('course that'd also put you out of business pretty fast, law or no law.)

However! The OP's particular complaint... honestly... I have no problem with and in fact am greatly in favor of that rule, 'your account is your responsibility'. Most accounts are 'hacked' when people run some dubious software that will supposedly 'hack' the game for them and give them a ton of money, or give some other advantage. These programs are almost universally keyloggers that catch your password; in some cases they also provide the benefit claimed which helps avert suspicion for long enough to collect -more- passwords. Almost all the rest of people either gave their password to a friend, or use the same password on ten different accounts and gave the password to one of those accounts to a friend who gave it a try on SK. A smaller number have stupidly easy to guess passwords, like having the character 'Dark-Knight' and making your password 'brucewayne' or 'batman'. (and no, using 'bruc3wayn3' didn't make it secure.)

The number of people who through no fault of their own have had their computer hacked directly from the internet and their three rings game account, of all things, broken into? Vanishingly small. May have happened, your IP address could be gathered from your guild forum or teamspeak server... (Did you use the same name and password there? They didn't hack you externally from the 'net and it -was- your fault. Of course the system administrator can see your password) Anyway, the number of people that are truly 'hacked' through no fault of their own ... if not zero, much, much, much, MUCH smaller than the number of people that will get into an inebriated state, or sleep-deprived one, or just a reckless mood, and do something stupid, and then -pretend- they got hacked when they realize that giving away all their prized possessions to the noobs was a stupid idea. And it's pretty much impossible for Three Rings to tell if someone is hacked or not... the account logged in with seemingly valid credentials, that's -all- they really know.

Now, if Three Rings servers are actually hacked and things disappear due to Three Rings poor security and they don't make restitution... if it actually -happens- then we can talk about quitting in anger, but I don't think Three Rings is that kind of company.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 22:03
#33
Eurydice's picture
Eurydice
Community Manager
I had a post all written, but

I had a post all written, but Senshi covered the basics.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 22:31
#34
Quasirandom's picture
Quasirandom
Game companies have lots of

Game companies have lots of policies in the EULA that say something to the effect of, we can do whatever we want and you can't do anything about it. They have to in order to avoid getting in trouble every time there is a patch someone doesn't like, or a server is laggy one day, or someone tries to run the game on unsupported hardware and gets upset that it won't work, or someone gives his password to a power-leveling site, who uses it to steal his account, or whatever.

That doesn't mean that the game company really will never make any restitution. If it's something flagrant and it's their fault, they probably will. But they don't want to be legally liable to have to compensate you every time you give your password to someone else, who uses it to do things to your account that you don't like.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 22:56
#35
Senshi
Legacy Username
@Eurydice

<3

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 05:52
#36
Crimson-Lily's picture
Crimson-Lily
yeah, i think most account

yeah, i think most account hacked was because they try to hack the game with a software that was obviously a keylogger. i see my friend try searching google "spiral knight hack", and he ended in youtube that give link to a hack software to spiral knight. he used it immediately, and no wonder, he also lose it. trying to hack, and ended up getting hacked. obviously this was the player's own fault. the player can't charge Three Rings for the mess of it's own stupidity.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 06:14
#37
Dirt
Legacy Username
You mean exactly the same as

You mean exactly the same as the Steam agreement you already agreed to?

Dogrock be stealing my replies. Unless someone is brand new to MMOs, or even the internet in general, this is somewhat useful information. I think it should be fairly common sense, though. Or maybe just sense.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 06:32
#38
Trias's picture
Trias
In my experience there is

In my experience there is nothing common about having any sort of sense. Especially on the internetz.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 07:53
#39
aeolianmode
Legacy Username
Does this only apply to hacks

Does this only apply to hacks (outside attacks eg. Sony) and people who are careless with their passwords? What about bugged accounts, like the negative crown thing going around?

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