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on the matter of everything (power creep I guess, maybe??)

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Thu, 08/29/2019 - 14:54
Jcyrano's picture
Jcyrano

to begin, I don't know if It belongs here, but here We go (play epic quest music... not that epic, a bit less... less... there, much better)

Hello everyone that came to read:
I read about GH thinking about Increasing the deeps of the "Arcade", not a bad Idea, but let me Word Up an Idea even if It's Pointless.
Here we go:
the problem is not the deep levels, the problem is that, after increasing it, people will complain about not being able to One shot everything y 40 squares around and beyond, more power will be added so i can One shot again, so more levels will be added and... so on, and SO Forth...
things like Mixmaster that 75shotdowns an enemy on a single click (shot) are not helping, those power creeps just add to the problem (let's not erase them from the game just tone them down a bit, let me explain a bit more before you throw a temper tantrum) because there is nothing difficult about the game if Anything even sees you before getting obliterated.

The game stalls if I get everything I need without small amount of risk, to extend the Idea a bit, If, If I have every stat I would want for 1 set and 1 Gun everything else becomes Sub-par, -"It's not es Effective as (insert combo here), I don't Like It" happen to become "A" Frase, or worse "THE" frase we see often causing a DPS Race that WON'T END, it will NEVER end.

We have the solution IN the game, It was always there... the UV... why?... simple let's take a look of what used to be needed to do Vanaduke for example:

    Volcanic Bomber Set (to be on the safe side) + Shivermist Buster (rank 10) = Max CDR

those 2 things allow me to keep Vanaduke from Moving During the Fray (I know the mask thing-y, and the helpers and those things), and I don't need anything else, I could do 45millions of Vanaduke without changing Anything to the point of stacking crowns to buy for example: Energy at the ridiculous cost of ~10 Vanadukes = 1 Energy, I could pay it, I anyone else can't well Sukcs to be them...

but, and just as an example: if, IF the

    SAME SET + BomB = Very High CDR (don't be literal about this)

I would have to expend Crowns Looking for the UV that allows me to get back the control of the fray... I din't have to Increase the Boss health, nor Armor, nor LeveL or remove anything from the game even add something new, I was THERE all the time.

Let's take a look on the Gunners sets (everybody loved/hated them) what if: WE as a Working team oF Community and Developers get to an agreement:

  • the Sentinel Line becomes a Sword Bonus Gear (don't verbal vomit yet)
  • the Pathfinder Line becomes a Bomb Bonus Gear (don't verbal vomit yet)
  • the Shade Line remains a Guns Bonus Gear (don't verbal vomit yet)
  • (retaining the Status resist/weakness and Specific Enemy bonus they already have, AND I Know they have Different Armor Types, let's use them as example of what could be if we tweak and tinker)
    (perhaps was a bad example because you'll have every Option and we shouldn't, but we have Medium Bonus with both parts, that compelsme to go for UV's and that's my point today, you might be right on love/hate them for the variety of sets and that they cover everything, but gives you the need to go for UV's, sprite bonus, trinkets, things like those)

    Tone Down a bit the Power Creeps weapons so when we add the sets the still need a UV to become the "MAX" the Game wont Need a HUGE Update, Just small tweaks, that we can experience more often/regular to see the game getting compelling and fun, and Interesting, I love the Idea behind this game, how can be Intricate sometimes I want it to Grow Better, Faster, Stronger (where I heard that before, NVM)
    Thanks for Reading SO far, Bopp will try to kill me for this, I still like him/her/it? have a wonderful experience, and a lovely day
    Atte.: Jcyrano
    P.D.: you can Verbal vomit Now, and Temper Tantrum if you Want, Bye

    Thu, 08/29/2019 - 17:40
    #1
    Bopp's picture
    Bopp
    not sure I understand

    You seem to be talking about power creep. You think that knights should be nerfed to make the game more challenging and hence more interesting. You think that players have gotten used to one-shot-killing monsters or completely suppressing monsters. They will be upset if they get nerfed. This is my guess for what you're saying.

    I don't think that a quantitative nerf will make the game more interesting. I think that qualitative changes will. Here's an analogy. Which would you rather have: a new damage type or a new status condition? I'd rather have a new status, because statuses affect gameplay in interesting ways, whereas damage types are basically columns in a spreadsheet.

    Thu, 08/29/2019 - 17:45
    #2
    Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
    Fehzors-Forum-Alt

    I like your writing style. It hurts to read but it hurts so good sometimes posts don't read like it should come on baby make it hurt so good.

    But anyway I'm not sure what you're saying about UVs/bonuses, other than to nerf them so the game can power creep and we'll need them more? And I do want them to do what you're saying to the gunner armors, just rebalance them into all the classes.... so you're not like, off base possibly? As for T4, so far it's actually really stirred up the meta and made less good weapons viable, oddly enough, so I don't know that power creep is even going to happen really for it too much. I think power creep happens more as a function of the devs adding any player option to the game and less as a solution for developer created problems lol.

    PS- Why don't you think Bopp will like this? Bopp doesn't typically judge things, that's like, everyone except Bopp that does that. Bopp will be proud of you for writing something. One time Bopp even gave me a sticker that said good job for one of my better posts and I ate it.

    Thu, 08/29/2019 - 18:26
    #3
    Jcyrano's picture
    Jcyrano
    on bopp and... really, are promos?

    Bopp: I get your Point, adding complexity thru diversification rather re-purposing and of Nerfing, though I'm still worried about the Damage Race Rampage...

    Promos-are-content: yes the Idea of needing UV's is the main point, the gunners armors are a good example of weird-ness and you're on point about I think power creep happens more as a function of the devs adding any player option to the game and less as a solution for developer created problems lol.

    Mon, 09/02/2019 - 12:22
    #4
    Crazy-Horse's picture
    Crazy-Horse
    You are nonplussed

    I regained interest in the game after i put away my combuster and started learning to switchfire guns and other weapons. Bombing is the next frontier and so far it has proven easier to learn than my guns. Working with the cluster explosives is where I'm at now.

    I think you should keep your game interesting by trying and mastering different weapons. The floor levels and farming aren't the source of variety you seek. Choose a weapon, level it up in pve, then try it in lockdown and beat people with it. Such a project will give you true joy, trust me.

    Mon, 09/02/2019 - 17:16
    #5
    Jcyrano's picture
    Jcyrano
    Crazy-Horse

    Is not about having things to do, I have plenty, is about not falling into the "there is no high enought level content",
    I play bomber since I started, it never fell easy, i won't fell like I one shot anything, but finding new ways to play also help, in the mean time

    Mon, 09/02/2019 - 20:32
    #6
    Fishysh's picture
    Fishysh
    Is this a troll

    Mixer does potato damage in shadow lairs.
    Nobody forces you to use metaslave sweaty tryhard gear.
    Mixer came out in what, 2015?
    Bombs have received a few random damage increases throughout the years so Why ArE BombS BeinG PowErCreePeD
    10 vanas to 1 energy sounds like a heck of a deal count me in

    Acheron has stayed as the strongest all around weapon in the game for like 8 years now, there's no race for damage.

    Tue, 09/03/2019 - 01:36
    #7
    Chainguy's picture
    Chainguy
    As @Fishysh said...

    No one at all is forcing you to use Black Kat and Chaos everywhere, some want to play more defensively or unique playstyles such as Support Bomber which is inflicting status on everything via mist bombs.
    I had one for a recent Ice Queen run after Shadow Lairs were "buffed" to Tier 4, it was a lifesaver all around with a combined Fire+Sleep+Poison thawing Ice Cubes and shutting down Silkwings which were healing for 200+ HP a tick

    In fact, i refuse to use Black Kat/Chaos at all in Shadow Lairs themselves, even before they got "buffed" to Tier 4. I never chance with them being the hardest content, even if i did have top tier experience.
    Don't go to them often as it is.
    I made unique loadouts for each one, with a rough example of Sacred Snakebite Shade/Sacred Grizzly Pathfinder/Grey Feather+Seerus/Divine respectively in terms of armor.

    The problem as i see it is that with people being so experienced now that they can handle most areas with no issues, as they have the experience and know how to exactly fight enemies in groups, along with their spawn points to kill them on the spot. One example is for Wolver/Devilites, their dodges have a cooldown of 3 seconds after use, which you can abuse by baiting it out. With practice even Riftlocker can become useful by doing this.

    Another example is Devilites can only attack every 3 seconds with their throws, however this cooldown is not shared with an Overtimer's melee attack, which has no cooldown and it's separate from their throws.
    Basically once you interrupt a Devilite in melee, they're usually toast to take out unless it's an Overtimer.
    I would back up if they try to melee instead of trying to shield/interrupt it, as not only does it come out fast enough to stop most sword combos, but attacks that can flinch will only interrupt it.
    Their throw attacks sets their flinch resistance to pretty much zero so they can be interrupted by pretty much anything, the same applies to some other attacks such as Zombie's breath, Thwackers throwing their axe, or Wolvers barking.

    When it comes to Shadow Lairs being "buffed" now to Tier 4, in my opinion true teamwork and lots of crowd control is a must now to not die, or at least have low death counts.
    It's to a point now that you could have max out everything and be rich, Black Kat and Mixmaster alike, it's not going to save you against these beefy enemies as we are too used to enemies dying far too quickly in normal levels for them to do any serious damage.
    With them now having raid-like HP to actually be a threat now, even the most simple of enemies such as Mini-Slimes can ruin you day if given the chance.
    This also effectively makes Trojans/Almire Guards/Giant Lichens true "Mini-bosses" and can be considered the highest threat, and should be dragged away from your teammates and fought 1v1 if possible.

    I used 8 Sparks of Life during that Ice Queen run as mentioned, despite only being my 3rd ever trip into that Shadow Lair, 1st if counting Tier 4 "buff". We were all nervous, it felt like going through old Shadow Lairs again with high stakes where energy was the only way to revive and Sparks of Life didn't exist.
    It forced me to play defensively for the first time in like years, fully taking advantage of how enemy AI works and being aware of my surroundings full time.
    One example is distraction, as i deliberately made sure i had aggro of some enemies such as Poly turrets and Lumbers, making sure they're only targeting me and not my teammates, while making sure Poly turrets were faced away so my teammates didn't randomly get sniped.
    Enemies target players based on who dealt the most damage to them, this is exactly what i did by making sure i had the most damage on them, dashing can mess this up but with the coordination we had it rarely was an issue.
    This overall allowed my teammates to deal with the rest of the types which were lesser threats, we did however still had moments where things hit the fan such as the final arena. (3 Giant Lichens at the same time was truly chaotic) We did a similar tactic for Ice Queen where she only went for me while everyone else kept minions under control.

    I probably went super off-topic here, so i apologize.
    Overall this is why in my opinion Shadow Lairs are good now, but i agree with most of the complaints so far with them and wouldn't mind such changes.
    "Payout not good enough!" "Rewards not worth the trouble!" "Enemies hit too hard!" are such examples, i really only disagree with nerfing HP, some are likely to call me crazy on this.
    Enemy damage probably would be reverted to Tier 3, but keeping their Tier 4 health in exchange.
    Some of the best players reported so far having to use like 50+ Sparks of Life which is ridiculous, but i say in due time people will adapt having to go on the defense and that use count will drop massively and likely will become standard to us.
    Although i hope to start seeing variety now with this, Shadow Lairs feel like a fresh new experience having to play like how some other MMO's tackle dungeon/raid content.

    Tue, 09/03/2019 - 10:12
    #8
    Jcyrano's picture
    Jcyrano
    Chainguy

    Actually you didn't went off topic, mi point is: Increasing Monster damage and resistances will cause the need of increasing weapons damage, resulting in the need of increasing monster health/damage... and again and again (not between Acheron and what ever other weapon as was mentioned elsewhere)
    ..."Enemy damage probably would be reverted to Tier 3, but keeping their Tier 4 health in exchange."..., is a good way to solve it, creating a "Raid" level that force you to play the way YOU and your team did it As a Team.

    Mi point is not falling in a dps race between the monster and the players, and as Bopp said: ..."I don't think that a quantitative nerf will make the game more interesting. I think that qualitative changes will."..., you are pointing another tool

    Maybe Bombers shouldn't have a Piercing/freeze resistance gear (like Gunners plethora of gear due the Update) so bombers have to be more cautious about them, and the team also be on the watch while the bomber help the team, but we need to talk, communicate what we need, what we want, what we want to Know, and establish that "radial silence" does't help at all

    Tue, 09/03/2019 - 23:56
    #9
    Fishysh's picture
    Fishysh
    Powercreep outside of stats

    I do enjoy using stage-specific armour sets, and support bombing is my favorite way to play the game.
    I can wholeheartedly agree that the damage enemies do has to be knocked down a level or two though for people who wear the proper sets. Not for people who don't adjust.

    To answer your concerns about power creep though:
    The powercreep wont take affect through stats climbing to insane heights. Instead, playstyles that are creative and teamwork and defensively oriented gameplay will be what gets stronger with time. At the moment, the only players who complain about shadow lairs are the ones who enter with no pre-meditation.
    No formulated strategy. Just everyone trying to dps the hardest with full glass cannon.

    When your full dps gets healed in a split second by a single silkwing, it's already too late to have realized that you needed venom veiler the whole time.
    Gremlin menders giving you hassle and are too mobile? Torpor Tantrum shuts them up and opens them up to be killed. Well timed heart attacks on low hp enemies, super well placed pulsar shots, there are tons of possibilities for amazing teamwork with these new sls. It's not the gear that needs to get stronger, but just the way teams play together. I'm sure there's a perfect set of 16 weapons and great positioning that can make the sls a cakewalk, and these weapons might be weapons that were previously write-offs. When mixer doesn't 1 hit slimes, these crazy and amazing situations are opened up.

    I'm glad to see unprepared parties being curb stomped because these lairs are finally making people think outside the box and strategize for once.
    Taking the right armour should be more rewarding though. You can still get 2 or 3 shot even wearing the perfect armour that suites the lair.

    Thu, 09/19/2019 - 08:12
    #10
    Elegies's picture
    Elegies
    Shadow Lairs

    I don't really think giving things a ton of HP in SLs is difficult. It's tedious. Tedious is not the good kind of challenge.

    Thu, 10/17/2019 - 00:28
    #11
    Bomber-Max's picture
    Bomber-Max
    @Elegies

    I don't know if you got them wrong...
    They said that they think devs will change Shadow Lairs damage to be T3 damage and keep T4 health. I don't think they meant that just T4 health would be good.

    Sorry if it was just a random comment.

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