Let's talk about Prestige Mission "Arms Appropriation", Forging, and Heating

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Euclidean-Space

I've been playing Spiral Knights since 2013 and have accumulated an astounding (quite sad too) 8857 hours, according to steam. Prestige missions is something I've never missed out since I became a Vanguard in the game. I even have my own team of 3 other knights, all 4 of us are usually online when the prestige mission renews. Besides missing out the oddball release of Black Kat and cake missions, and that one month of moving, it's a daily grind I and the several other people perform religiously.

I'll begin with Arms Appropriation missions. To the unaware knight, "Arms Appropriation" mission is where the player is required to hand in a weapon in exchange for prestige points. Vanguards are required to hand in a 4* and a 5* mission every 10 days if said knight wants the prestige points. 180 points for a 4* and 300 for a 5*. The weapon being asked for is completely arbitrary and differs from player to player, which is the most mind boggling aspect of this mission. When Spiral HQ wants weapons to fight off the evils and further colonise Clockworks, wouldn't it make sense that these weapons are all the same? What's the point of taking a gun from player A and a bomb from player B; moreover, the Spiral HQ NPCs can't even be seen in combat with these weapons! So really, where did the weapons go? As far as I am aware, HQ knights only use the "starter" weapons (Nitronome, Leviathan Blade, and Valiance lines) with the odd one out hacking himself two fluorishes and equipped with a Blitz needle.

This might seem pointless, as prestige badges are capped at 45000 for the horsehead icon, but trust me, there is a small collective of us that wants to go far beyond the 45,000 "milestone". This is similar to people who collect seemingly pointless items such as gift cards and train tickets. The same applies to for example, "catching them all" in Pokemon, it's fair to say 70% of available pokes are just useless, but that's not the point. So please don't tell us "just stop doing it", that doesn't fix the issues with this archaic leftover of a mission. There's even this "unofficial prestige leaderboards" thingy, don't know where it is and I don't care frankly, I'm not here to brag, it's all fun numbers to me.

The knight only has 48 hours available to create the weapon required for the mission. Once the mission on the previous day renews, the knight is able to see what's there on the next day. When the following day comes, the mission comes into effect, where handing in the appropriate weapon will grant the respective prestige points. This is why the mission is archaic.

In the past, heating is simple. Forging a 4* weapon into 5* is a matter of one single FSC run with friends, where the knight will leech heat by reviving another knight who is cooked by fire traps. Half of the heat carried by the suicidal knight is transferred to the "reviver". This is no longer the case obviously. Heating a 4* weapon to level 10, without any doubles or 25% boost, requires about 2~3 hours, depending on skill. Asking most players to do this in just 2 days is simply unreasonable, let alone the fact that there's really no reward besides some points. For myself and several other knights, we do this once every 10 days; trust me, it's a pain.

Nowadays, we find ourselves throwing heat away on the first several days, and needing to spit out a 5* weapon in two days when the mission pops up. It's completely unreasonable.

To make things worse, in the past, the game automatically detects the weapon with the most heat. This resulted in me handing in the wrong weapon twice, and I didn't get it back after whining to the GMs. My other friend was able to get one of his back, so who knows; maybe I'm disliked or something. At least this is now fixed, the game detects the suitable weapon with the least heat. In a rush, things can go wrong!

To tackle this issue, I've made the following proposals:
1. Get rid of "Arms Appropriation" altogether and replace it with something else.
This is the best possible outcome, making the weapons require at least 6 elite orbs and 6 advanced orbs. It's even more costly for players that don't have a bunch of Eternal orbs lying around. As far as I am aware, the three of us who never miss these missions agree that this is the best possible outcome.

2. Reward the player with something on top of the prestige points
This is a more reasonable proposal. A reward should be given besides prestige points. For example:
a) Complete 4* Arms mission, reward x3 Elite orbs
b) Complete 5* arms mission, reward x3 Eternal orbs and a 2-day heat amplifier
This change will give people actual reasons to complete the mission. Maybe the knight has some kind of never used weapon lying around, selling it for 30k to vendors is a joke, unbind is a bigger joke, so why not just exchange it for rarities and a heat amplifier?

3. Allow the knight to hand in any weapon to complete the mission.
If the weapon required is totally arbitrary, why not just let us put in any weapon, as long as it meets the required "stars"?

4. Only ask for weapons Spiral HQ actually uses
The NPCs only use starter weapon lines, just ask knights for one out the three. This makes everything easier and more bearable.

5. Inform the knights of the weapon required before the mission
Since the missions are rotated on a 10-day-basis, why not just tell players which ones are required in upcoming missions? Instead of having 48 hours to finish the quest, knights get 10 days. This allows us to equip the 4* weapon required and effectively utilise heat from missions, instead of letting it go to waste.

Summing up, I'd like to see (1) happen, or a combination of the proposals following (1):
(2)+(4)+(5) -- Reward, only require "starter trio" lines, and tell the knights which one of the three is needed
(2)+(3) -- Reward, any weapon flies.
(2)+(3)+(4) -- Reward, any weapon of the "starter trio"
(2)+(5) -- Reward, inform knights of the required weapon, renewed on a 10-day basis for both missions.
If the (2) is too much, I and most will settle with either (5), (3), or (4). Anything but requiring a 5* to be made in 2 days is good. I personally think the reward proposal in (2) is a fair exchange for a 5* weapon. Maybe instead of 3 orbs, reward 2 or 1. With (2) in place, I don't mind creating a 5* weapon in just 2 days, halving the process means halving the boring Sewer Stash runs, fair enough.

Then comes forging and heating, forging as most probably will agree with me, is a pain. There's so many good missions to heat, but many doesn't have forging anvils. Leaving and coming back after forging is so inconvenient and annoying, most don't have the best load times. Why not just add forging anvils to every level of missions such as FSC? This isn't too much to ask for I believe.

Another annoying issue is forging crystal percentages. 100% should give a 100% chance of getting a heat boost and a high percentage of doubles. I've heated many weapons and landed on Z-E-R-O 25% boosts, this just makes me mad. There should also be an option to use more heat crystals to forge a weapon at say 95% heated, or what I like to say "a pip off". Sometimes the required heat left isn't even visible, having to finish an entire level to get a 99% heated weapon to 100% is a major inconvenience.

Requiring a 4* weapon to reach level 10 makes no sense to me. A 4* weapon at lv10 is more powerful than a 5* weapon until it reaches lv5 or 6, if I can recall correctly. Kind of baffles me, for weapons like Blitz, keeping it at 4* lv10 is just fine, the difference is one charge... what sense does this make? I think the level of upgrade for 4*-5* should be decreased to 7 or 8, where it's perhaps a bit more powerful than a fresh 5* lv1 weapon. I understand the difference is huge for some weapons such as Brandishes, but those are just special cases really.

Zincamania-Forum
Question

For the first problem, couldn't you just craft all of the 4* and 5* weapons as backup, then whenever you hand in a weapon for the prestige, you recraft that weapon in those 10 days. Yes it will take some time to get every weapon pre-crafted, but once you have them all you'll always have 10 days time to craft the one you handed in last time.

I agree that lore-wise it would make more sense to have every player hand in the same weapon, and as such a rotation would make sense, which makes it predictable so you get the full 10 days to craft without needing 1 of each weapon "in stock". Another option that would make sense lore-wise is to have players hand in *any* weapon of the specified star level and damage type. E.g. any 4* star, shadow type weapon would count for the mission because the spiral order has a bunch of gremlins invading and their new fresh defender elites who cannot wield 5 star weapons are being sent to their deaths at the frontlines. And then a black chaingun or a Faust would both count towards the quest.

I think adding a forging anvil to each level is fine. Then again, this is the reason why I usually do clockworks for heating rather than FSC. Not sure if we want to encourage people doing exclusively FSC, because random parties in clockworks make the game seem more alive. Especially for newer players who do not have access to FSC.

Euclidean-Space
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For the first problem, couldn't you just craft all of the 4* and 5* weapons as backup, then whenever you hand in a weapon for the prestige, you recraft that weapon in those 10 days. Yes it will take some time to get every weapon pre-crafted, but once you have them all you'll always have 10 days time to craft the one you handed in last time.

That's an unreasonable solution to a mechanism with obvious problems.
It's like living 45 minutes away from City central, but in order to get there via public transport, one needs to make 3 transfers taking a massive detour, taking 2 hours. This is actually sometimes the case where I live, albeit not city central. There's a nearby suburb with lots of shops, talking the bus there requires a total of about 35mins and 1.5 km of walk to a station, walking there is 3.5 km which takes about 40 minutes... what's the point?

Crafting all 4* is unnecessary, making a 4* weapon is a matter of completing the 2 prestige missions anyway.
All 5*s, I've thought about that but absolutely no. I would not want to do that. How many old 5* weapons are they?
9 bombs, 11 guns, 13 swords? I might be wrong.
That's a total of 33 weapons, requiring:
33*400=13200 energy for 4* orbs alone
Then 13200/2=6600E for 3* orbs
Most need 2* ones as well.
Let alone the amount of time required, and obviously the "payback". Yes, surely this many weapons will render the randomiser useless, but I do worry about the game's future, will it last long enough, worthy for me to invest in such a project? I feel sad saying this, I don't want the game to fail, but the paranoia is always there. I've played some games where I invested lots of time and passion, just for it to disappear in one day (Chinese games), I'm sure GH won't do that, we will be informed if this ever happens (hopefully never!). I just wish the company is a bit more transparent on the stuff they are working on, that's it. I understand it's a small team, but isn't the advantage being closer to players?

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I agree that lore-wise it would make more sense to have every player hand in the same weapon, and as such a rotation would make sense, which makes it predictable so you get the full 10 days to craft without needing 1 of each weapon "in stock". Another option that would make sense lore-wise is to have players hand in *any* weapon of the specified star level and damage type. E.g. any 4* star, shadow type weapon would count for the mission because the spiral order has a bunch of gremlins invading and their new fresh defender elites who cannot wield 5 star weapons are being sent to their deaths at the frontlines. And then a black chaingun or a Faust would both count towards the quest.

Your proposal sounds great too. Instead of stocking up every possible weapon, just stock up one of each damage type, ie 4; the weapon can be something deemed "useless" by the player. I don't use the Dark Matter Bomb, Cold Iron Vanquisher, Glasius, or the Deadly Splinter Bomb. Your proposal is great, it even avoids the misfortune of handing in the wrong weapon if the detection mechanism is done right. I think certain even weapons should be banished in case someone really screws up, we have the Hammer and DR bomb that can't be traded after all.

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I think adding a forging anvil to each level is fine. Then again, this is the reason why I usually do clockworks for heating rather than FSC. Not sure if we want to encourage people doing exclusively FSC, because random parties in clockworks make the game seem more alive. Especially for newer players who do not have access to FSC.

Yeah I agree, I do clockworks, specifically arenas. Still adding the anvil will harm no one, as people will just leave and come back either way. What we really need is major clockworks upgrades which we are luckily seeing right now, the future is bright. I personally dislike looping FSC, I only do it if there's neither S4 nor S6 areans available.

Fehzors-Forum-Alt's picture
Fehzors-Forum-Alt

I'm more concerned with everyone that isn't one of those 3 people, but this works really well for the rest of us too since those missions are kind of a waste.

Giving back orbs/fire crystals would on occasion let knights "uncraft" their gear so to speak, and I think that would help a lot. We could even take it a step further, and give radiant fire crystals to reward this unnecessary crafting.

I definitely hope the devs read this. It's been a long time coming.

Euclidean-Space
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I'm more concerned with everyone that isn't one of those 3 people, but this works really well for the rest of us too since those missions are kind of a waste.


Giving back orbs/fire crystals would on occasion let knights "uncraft" their gear so to speak, and I think that would help a lot. We could even take it a step further, and give radiant fire crystals to reward this unnecessary crafting.


I definitely hope the devs read this. It's been a long time coming.

Yeah, that's really the point. Those missions, along with the supply pack ones are a waste.
After one reaches 45k, all the prestige missions practically speaking goes to a waste, maybe danger missions are an exception since there's lots of loot at the end. Oh and the occasional event prestige missions hold some water.

Whether it's the small handful or not, either way Arms Appropriation is archaic, it's a relic of the past and deserves to be the past. It needs an update.

Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

The solution to arms appropriation really is to stop doing it though. Am I wrong in assuming you often end up buying orbs, and worse, fire crystals to fund your prestige efforts? By doing so you're voting in favour of the system with your wallet, the only vote that counts. Their logs show it being used, and that shows the system working for those in charge.

Euclidean-Space
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The solution to arms appropriation really is to stop doing it though. Am I wrong in assuming you often end up buying orbs, and worse, fire crystals to fund your prestige efforts? By doing so you're voting in favour of the system with your wallet, the only vote that counts. Their logs show it being used, and that shows the system working for those in charge.

No, I kindly disagree.
This isn't a solution. It doesn't follow.
Public transport is bad? Just stop using it.
Something more voluntary... maybe one's from a rural area. Can't get computer parts? Don't build a computer. In some places such as rural Latin America and Africa, sourcing computer parts is harder than finding a diamond in one's back yard (hyperbolic I know). That shouldn't stop the person from building one for whatever reason.

Yes, I do buy orbs, 3* and 4* ones. Fire crystals? No. Think about it, each danger mission alone gives some 30+ of 4* fire crystals. 4* crystals are only needed once every 10 days. The normal missions give lots of 4* crystals too, and when heating by doing clockworks arenas, one gets a bunch too. I have probably 20k 4* crystals, and I never look back when I miss a batch. If I see boxes popping out only fire crystals and vials, I won't even bother picking them up. Having to buy orbs isn't a problem, crystals aren't an issue. The problem is the two days margin of completion. I didn't focus on the cost until someone brought up the forced solution of crafting every possible weapon being asked for. I'm happy to buy orbs or even pay for energy to buy them which supports the servers, I'm just very annoyed at the extremely unreasonable time allowance. When I say "it's best to get rid of it", it really comes from me being worn out and utterly annoyed after having to make the 5* in two days, encountering numerous "a pip heat off" issues and absolutely no 25% boost. Rid it, why not fix it?

The voting with the wallet thing will work if it's an ideal world, it's really not. A broken system is a broken system, and the fact that 3 out of the 5 I know of who does these missions agree it's broken means it's probably really broken. We've been doing this for years and years, so our opinion is worth a lot.

What I want is this mission to be up to date. It's clearly obsolete, wanting a 5* to be spat out in just 2 days is clearly very unreasonable under this current laborious heating system. This puts normal players off too since there's no reward worthy of such a feat. Tweaking the mission to allow more positive and meaningful rewards would in turn boost the mission and promote players to do it, which in turn yields more than the statistically insignificant 5 players or so who does it. It is in GH's favour to make the mission more accessible and up-to-date. This mission isn't one of those "fun novelty weapons", it really belongs in a museum.