Spiral Knights - Communication and Transparency

Communication and Transparency

7 replies [Last post]

Sat, 01/30/2021 - 18:18

Geomec

First and foremost, this post isn't intended to be an attack of any kind or to call out any singular person working on this game. This post is made entirely as a means of communication between the community to Grey Havens about rising issues that we've felt throughout the years about things that should be addressed. Never target, attack, or harass any member of Grey Havens for any reason. Please keep things civil.
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TRANSPARENCY

I want to get right into the point. Members of the community are growing angry and sad with the current state of Spiral Knights. We understand and appreciate the maintaining of Spiral Knight's servers and operation, however, we feel like communication and transparency is an area that could be worked on between Grey Havens and the Spiral Knights community. In short, we feel issues aren't being conveyed properly or communicated between us. The connection between Grey Havens and the community has grown sour due to a lack of transparency on many issues surrounding the game.

For Example: QQQ boxes did not drop in the last two days of their initial release in the Casino. When reported, we were told that the wheels containing QQQ boxes may not always be in rotation in a Casino. While this is true, it doesn't address the issue that nobody had a single box drop for the entirety of the remaining two days. Prior to the release of QQQ boxes, there was a notable span of time where slime boxes wouldn't drop at all. This span of time wasn't mentioned at all within the Casinos announcements nor was it addressed to the community in any way along with the QQQ box incident. With the high community investment into the box, it made it quite clear that wasn't a luck based issue.

That's just one example. Humbug hats and the Neutralizer code typo are near-famous problems that haven't been fixed despite countless community fixes and reports addressing the situation. These issues aren't brought up because of the issues themselves, but instead of what they stand for. 'FND', or 'Fix Neutralizer Damage' is addressing an issue with the weapon has been around for quite some time. Neutralizer is important because if a small well-known issue like it won't be fixed then it shows greater issues than that of the weapon itself. It's not just the QQQ boxes, It's not just Neutralizer. It's not just the broken nature of the Mixmaster or Orbitgun or the obscene requirement it takes to obtain one. This has been going on for too long and I cannot stress enough the importance of communication with the players.

We understand entirely that content and certain fixes aren't easy to do with a small team. That's why I'll again propose modding.

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MODDING

I cannot stress enough that modders are important to Spiral Knights. Knight Launcher is an open source modding tool and game launcher created to provide community patches and a place for members of the community to share and download fair and creative mods. Supporting Knight Launcher and encouraging the modding community would be a step in the right direction to help grow a healthy relationship.

It may be beneficial that you work with the Spiral Knights modding community. Code optimizations, tool-tip fixes, memory leak patches, aura load fixes, and access to community made mods and patches are all good examples of the modding community changing the game for the better. These people genuinely care and put time into fixing issues that have been present for years and seek no self-benefit from their investment of time. Perhaps in the future we could work together to even work on balance issues and other long-running problems such as defense values against normal damage or rounding out the armor system to be more diverse.
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I'm entirely thankful for events and interviews and I genuinely appreciate that Grey Havens offers these. That being said, art contests or the occasional stream shouldn't be the only communication between us. We need to be able to talk to you guys so we can both improve the game together. I personally want to thank the community managers for doing their best to be interactive with the community and partake in community events. Community management can be a thankless job and I appreciate everything you guys do.

It's important that us as a community refrain from being hostile towards Grey Havens and that we should keep our critiques and advice as constructive as possible. Never send threats of any kind to Grey Havens nor their employees. Be respectful and helpful. We want to improve the game and communication within it.

If you have anything you'd like to add or say, feel free to do so in a respectful manner in the replies below.

Sun, 01/31/2021 - 07:43

Thats-Rough-Buddy

Nice post, just a couple suggestions

Firstly, spelling correction: "Grey Havens," not "Gray Havens." (Spelling someone's name properly is a way of showing respect...it's at the bottom of the site page for future reference.)

Small note on your wording:
"I made a post about this earlier, but I cannot stress enough that it's vital that you support modders in Spiral Knights"
"It's important that you try to work with modders."

I'd recommend rewording these lines. They come off as condescending to GH, as if you're trying to order them around. At the end of the day, it is their game not yours, and they only promised to keep it alive.

Thoughts:
I'm down for client side mods, but server side code is where the core of the game's issue's lie (weapon balance, lag, level diversity, content), and giving random people access to the server code would be a major security risk for obvious reasons. To get around this, GH would have to hire a trusted community-involved developer to work with the community's ideas and convert them into realistic code. This would be awesome, but not sure how likely this is for them to hire a new person. They would need background checks, track record of performance, and legal documentation holding them to their work.

This game was, and still is a game with massive potential. However, observing Grey Haven's statement about only preserving the game, I only see two realistic options on its revival:

1) Purchase the rights from Grey Havens. I would be fascinated to know the game's valuation. Perhaps a small group of dedicated SK fans with a genuine passion for the game could create an LLC, set up crowdfunding for them to buy the rights, and move on from here.

2) Create a new and improved version of Spiral Knights from the ground up, but be sure to avoid any copyright infringement (this would most likely result in a generic type game though, since it wouldn't have SK's charm).

Some interesting data:
Based on some investment numbers in the 2000s, and comparing the squared ratio of peak steam players (then vs now), the game is worth about as much as a base price C8 Corvette....not bad. I am sure someone with more financial experience could get more accurate numbers. This number is impacted by the fact that the game is decaying and not growing.

I must say, I am quite impressed and hopeful for this game's community and future, and I hope Grey Haven's communication improves as well.

Sun, 01/31/2021 - 09:40

Geomec

Thank you for the reply.

I'll edit the post to fix the wording and those spelling errors as well as a few others that I noticed, thanks for catching that.

As for the mods statement, I entirely understand and agree that server side code is a security risk if it's mishandled: I don't expect Grey Havens to supply server-side code. I'd love to have a developer working with the community, but of course I don't know how feasible this is for Grey Havens. However, giving the modding community exposure and offering assistance would be a nice push in the right direction.

Purchasing Spiral Knights is definitely an option, though it also sounds quite ambitious and hard to do. I don't know how many us could band together that well to accomplish such a thing. Still, it is definitely food for thought and something to consider. As for the 'New SK' idea, I've seen some projects pop up here and there which have showed some promise. I'm afraid none of these projects will see the light of day, either for infringing on Spiral Knight's rights or simply the lack of man-power to move development in their projects. If a notable development team was able to take a stab at it then I'd be genuinely interested in what ever they may come up with.

I appreciate your input, Crispy.

Mon, 02/01/2021 - 03:58

Midnight-Dj

Ah poop, here we go again...

I wonder why do people in SK thinking that keeping things 'civil' would make GH change their mind...

Haven't we done this already? How many times do I have to see threads similar to this? People regard me as some kind of a pariah in the SK community and rightfully so. A speaker of truth has no friend after all.

The truth is, GH, have not and probably will never communicate and be transparent with us. They didn't do it for almost over 7 years. So what makes you think they would do it now? I have once entertained the idea of co-ordinated mass boycott of the game's prize boxes, hit GH (or back then, OOO) where it hurts the most, the wallet, forcing them to listen to what we want or we will withhold our support, this will probably never happen seeing as some people will buy these boxes no matter what.

"But Midnight," I hear you type away on your keyboard with those same cookie cutter response. "I said to keep things civil and not attack our precious, precious GH staff, boycott is bad!" But there is nothing illegal about it, we withhold money on GH is we exercise our right as paying customer to demand better services (in this case transparency and updates), this 'GH owns the game, deal with it.' mentality needs to die, SK stayed alive for this long is DUE TO the passion and support of the players, without US, SK will just be an empty digital graveyard. You can put all of your creative passion into an art, but if no one else saw it, did it really exist?

Mon, 02/01/2021 - 08:44

Geomec

Indeed, again.

Pariah or not, your opinion is welcome here.

I originally started reading your post with the intention or idea that I'd have to make a counter point or disagree somewhere, but no. You're right, we've been dealing with a lack of transparency for a long time. In this case, it's less of 'thinking' there will be a change of mind and more-so 'hoping' out of love for the game. I agree that it feels unlikely things will change but I can't help but to continue trying to talk to them, no matter how hard it is. As for the boycott proposal, I agree: Most people just won't stop buying boxes and unfortunately we've learned that we can't expect people to.

But Midnight, I say to you, I want to keep things civil to keep this thread more comprehensive and readable as well as making sure nobody in Grey Havens is attacked for any reason. While I may demand better service from Walmart, for example, I wouldn't want any particular member of Walmart to be attacked or threatened in any way. That aside, I agree that it's entirely within our realm to ask for improvements in communication and transparency. It may be their game, but we are their players and their community. Simply asking for more transparency and better communication with their communities shouldn't be a tall ask and is entirely reasonable.

It's precisely the fact that I want to see this game continue living and thriving is the reason I make another one of these threads. I desperately want to see growth and happiness in this community.

I appreciate your input, Midnight.

Tue, 02/02/2021 - 00:46

Fishysh

black dog?

rerelease pre-existing content for money! unpin the state of haven post so people forget what you said in the past! talk nothing about future content! copyright strike videos! what was the black dog called again? this game is kinda like getting a plate of spaghetti. The waiter asks if you want anything on it and you say pepper. He brings out the pepper grinder and says "just tell me when". When you tell him to stop, he keeps grinding. He keeps grinding. You frantically tell him to stop grinding but he keeps going. After 5 minutes you can no longer see your once delicious spaghetti. You try to take his hands away but he turns out, to your horror, to be a robot, too strong for you to move. The doors close with a thud and trap you inside. 9 years pass and all you've eaten has been pepper. The restaurant is now completely filled with pepper and you can no longer see the robot, but you know he's still there, grinding pepper. You eventually accept your fate and drown in your peppery ocean. In your last moments your life flashes before your eyes. Glimpses of what your dish used to look like a decade ago appear in your mind. What was once a full meal, hot and ready to eat, is gone. The pepper is all. The pepper is everything. There was never spaghetti. There is only pepper. Accept the pepper. Eat the pepper. Feel the pepper. you are pepper.

Tue, 02/02/2021 - 11:05

Mephisto-Philus

Stop Spreading Limited Resources as a Life Span

I feel like the unused assets slowly being reintroduced/recolored and then added in portions at the end of the year to suffice for "new content" is just a disguise for the game bleeding all that it has left remaining from where the actual WIP left off. Once you run out, it's either you guys get creative recoloring even more armors sets, re-run boxes with owlite/boar/warden etc but under "new" color schemes following whatever box they got put in. The Glacial Box being a progenitor to this lax n' lazy process. It feels like you guys are tending to a small garden making slight changes as it keeps producing just enough of what you'd need.

You guys should really commission or hire the modding community or previous developers again. Because it's getting old. We the community aren't yard blind, unless you all have other jobs/careers as a main income and have this game as a hobby then we understand it might not be a priority/focus.

But if this is your main income-livelihood; we expect some sort of progression or effort put towards the game's story that just started getting interesting, the whole game has felt like a bunch of side quests leading up to bits and pieces of main story progression. It's sad to watch this game progress into just a money trap with bugs/broken aspects because you seem adamant that things "work as intended". I have spent a decade on this game, I wouldn't mind spending another decade more until the code rots away into obscurity.

PS: I'm sorry If i sounded harsh. No ill feelings to GH. I love you guys for keeping this game alive still. Just wish it kept developing. This game is a literal gem.

Wed, 02/10/2021 - 00:30

Zachk

Every time I play this, I think about how TF2 handles things

They were fading into obscurity, but kept hold of the community they bred by making them feel like they actually had an impact on the game; by being able to let the community add their own content to the official game. I can see a lot of untapped potential in just that aspect in this game, let alone everything else. I absolutely love this game and you guys, and sincerely hope that it doesn't die any time soon; and progresses well!

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Communication and Transparency