Spiral Knights - Discussion about 2D game maps & their sizes

Discussion about 2D game maps & their sizes

6 replies [Last post]

Sat, 09/16/2023 - 15:34

Bernston

I've sometimes gone to look at different maps across different games to get the know-how on their layouts, routes, different paths to take in past and present games, etc., not counting those made in 3D, and have, at times, wondered which games' maps are the longest, largest, or both yet, in terms of size. I really don't know much, but I'm very intrigued in how their sizes are when those 2D games are made. I'm talking about those games that use pixel art as tilesets to make their levels, along with those ranging in different styles.

For such a time, I've looked to know what sizes they are so far, and I was, & have been, curious to know how long or large their maps have been thus far. I did come across one site that's centered on charting game maps for people that may want to look at their sizes to study their routes, figure out strategies in terms of speedrunning through the longest stages yet, or so on, and I have seen so many stages that are both the shortest and the longest many people have made so far.

That site's called VGMaps. It's been around for a long time, and I, for one, appreciate the site's efforts in chronicling each games' maps thus far, and I hope they can keep continuing those efforts!

Video game maps have come such a long way in their sizes through technology, but you never know where newer games go for the longest and largest maps yet. Keep a close eye out & to those making such maps, try to challenge yourselves in making long stages so far, platformers, racetracks, top-down, isometric, you name it, but not too much.

My small concern sometimes when it comes to levels are seeing some new games that are a bit shorter than those that have been longer, even indie games. I'm not saying this to be against some short stages. Just thought many players are feeling a bit far too comfortable with shorter stages instead of longer stages in 2D games. I can only hope for people to get re-accommodated to long stage sizes gradually. Some people really like long stages, you know.

The VGMaps' website for those who are curious about their sizes - https://www.vgmaps.com/. Stop by anytime you want. Anyone feeling like contributing to their cause, they are welcome to join in.

One thing, the maps' images have to be PNG(Portable Network Graphics), because its the best picture quality to see clear crisp images, even pixel art made maps.

Shortcut links for those curious about long stage map sizes. Fair advisory, the maps can be very long. For those that may have less strong computers, be patient.

https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/Genesis/index.htm#SonicTheHedgehog3

https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/Genesis/index.htm#SonicKnuckles

https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/GBA/index.htm#SonicAdvance2

https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/DS/index.htm#SonicRush

https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/DS/index.htm#SonicRushAdventure

https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/DS/index.htm#SonicColors

Wed, 09/20/2023 - 21:31

Bernston

For those curious or intrigued...

I feel its just curious to see and know what sizes many game maps are, short or long. For my observation, I've wondered what's the longest game map size yet.

Before, many past games had rather short maps that were formerly deemed long, likely because the tech they had couldn't make it so to make them long, which takes less than minutes to clear. However, as time went on, clever technical trickery and smart thinking in game hardware programming and game coding underneath tight tech limits brought out longer games. Those people that made them knew aces up their sleeve. Admirable.

Thanks to game tech's advancements, those past size limits have been risen rapidly, allowing for more longer stages to be made.

When Sonic 3's two halves got out, they brought out long stages that were deemed the longest yet, as I've really loved, but time to time, that has changed. Sonic Advance 2's Egg Utopia Zone had map sizes etched in the range of 30,000, horizontally, that is.

If you're thinking otherwise, yeah, its all technical stuff hard to comprehend, but don't worry. I'm laying it simply as I can.

I mean, for that time being, I couldn't think of any game map size in that size range. Well, actually, those sizes weren't brought up until now.

Shortly, though, Sonic's DS games were made, and they brought out some more longer stages than Egg Utopia's. Dead Line Zone's maps were that close. The longest map size yet was Sonic Colors DS' Act 2 of Asteroid Coaster, ranged at a whooping horizontal size of 44,256 pixels wide, thus far! I got astounded seeing a map at that size.

If anyone can claim otherwise a game map can surpass that, I'd be extremely gaping my eyes open wide in shock.

Of course, can't count out vertical sizes, but that may and can count towards longest stage sizes yet, too.

Still, I can surely keep thinking any game could have longer map sizes than that, but I'm not too worried. There's bound to be those chronicled soon.

I've kinda more or less handled long stages before, but you never know if more show up to push farther handling them.

Who else has?

Thu, 09/21/2023 - 12:29

Nitronicx

I was curious

So I've looked around the VGMaps site.

The metric you chose may be a bit tricky. Regarding the size, are you talking about the "in-game stage size" or "size of the custom made map (picture)" of a stage? If it's size of a custom made map, the size may largely depend on the mapper's decisions. For example, whether he makes the map of the entire game or individual stages or even individual parts of the stage, whether he uses 1:1 scale or decides to downscale the map, how he maps out the less straightforward (in regards to mapping) parts of the stage etc. Newer games can have advantage over older ones if they use higher resolution. It may also be in mapper's interest not to make the map too large, otherwise you'll start running into technical difficulties. Less sophisticated image viewers may straight up crash if there are too many pixels, or may not have enough space (in RAM) to decompress the whole image, not to mention the potentially giant file size itself.

As a side note, while yes, the PNG format is lossless, JPEG may be a better choice for those smoother looking games that don't use pixel art. There will be some artifacts, but you can tweak the JPEG quality so they are almost unnoticeable and still end up with a ton of saved space compared to PNG. You rarely need the pixels to have exactly the same color as in the game. But you might need it and I get the appeal.

Anyway, now about some large maps/pictures I've looked up or found during searching and found them noteworthy...

Factorio has an infinite map. But it's randomly generated, so I'd understand if it didn't count.

I remember Castlevania: Symphony of the Night having a very large map. I've found a map of both castles with the size of 20,256 x 24,064 pixels. You could say the castles should be 2 maps instead of 1. Then the size of the regular castle is about half of the original size, 15,648 x 12,032 pixels. But you could also say the individual areas of the castle should be individual maps. Those maps are there, too. https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/PSX/index.htm#CastlevaniaSymphonyOfTheNight

I've also found a very big map of Ultima VII: The Black Gate. 24,576 x 24,576 pixels, 89 MB. Technically not much larger than the Castlevania map, but Firefox couldn't properly zoom in on this one. An example of the technical difficulties caused by large images I mentioned above. https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/PC/index.htm#UltimaVIIBlackGate

Something to rival the Sonic Colors' Asteroid Cluster Act II in terms of horizontal size could be Battletoads' Turbo Tunnel. If it weren't split into 6 parts at checkpoints, it would have about 65,000 pixels. And the same could be said about the later Volkmire's Inferno stage. You travel very quickly through these stages, hence the length. https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/NES/index.htm#Battletoads

Finally, I've looked up Hollow Knight. On VGMaps there's only a link to the online version of the map. The full map has 72,622 x 48,128 pixels and 835.61 MB. This was the largest map I've found through my curious searching. https://www.hallownest.net/

In Terraria, a large world has 8,400 x 2,400 tiles. From a brief look at some of the tiles, they seem to have 8x8 textures. So, if you made a picture of your entire (large) world, it would have 67,200 x 19,200 pixels.

Somewhat of a honorable mention, Gradius II's Stage 6 has a 11,056 pixels long stage. It's a shmup (shoot-em-up) game and they usually don't have maps (I think). If shmup games' stages were mapped, I believe there would be numerous very long maps. I don't know how would you map stages from most of such games in a useful manner, however, because it's primarily about the patterns and the enemies, and the enemies usually fly in rather than sit somewhere in the scrolling stage. https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/NES/index.htm#GradiusII

Sat, 09/23/2023 - 01:00

Bernston

WOW! I am now truly amazed!

I didn't know how big an in-game map size could be, but Hollow Knight's size really got me astounded. That's definitely the biggest map size I know now thus far. And being it using its own 2D art style for the map that contributes to its very large size so far, I can understand why.

And I have only one word for this discovery... YOWZA! Hollow Knight's map size at 72,622 x 48,128?!! Now THAT'S gargantuan!

Yes, to answer your question, I am talking about in-game stage size.

If Battletoads' Turbo Tunnel wasn't split up into 6 parts, that'd be a whole different story when it comes to the stage size and console tech capabilities. Good estimation, though. If any platforming game would had such a stage map at that size you estimated, well, that'd be a bit much of a challenge to go through, yes? But, hey, never know what anyone could go for when making those maps, right?

The level's correct name from Sonic Colors is Asteroid Coaster, not Cluster. Just saying.

Very nice to do some findings through your research, Nitronicx, and I truly appreciate that, but I feel there's still loads of games across so many platforms that have maps not yet documented, even indie games, too, such as Vengeful Guardian: Moonrider, Krusty's Fun/Super Fun House, The Messenger, Taz Mania, Taz in Escape From Mars, Cyber Shadow, all the Go! Go! Kokopolo games so far, the Blaster Master Zero trilogy, Goofy's Hysterical History Tour, Spark the Electric Jester, all the Oscar games so far, like Oscar in Toyland, Oscar's World Tour, and so on, and while there are some people contributing, I kinda feel not more have yet joined the cause.

Yes, quite a history for examples, I know, but I had to get that outta the way. Who else would?

I know, your opinions about some games I talk about may be your opinions, no matter how you think of 'em, and I'm not bothered by it, but I still feel their maps aren't all yet documented, and that makes me curious to know what their sizes are. Any game, good or bad by design and reception, still deserves their chronicling.

I get those games were made using different engines, but hardly anyone's spared time to document their maps. Don't know about the tools people use to get the game's maps for documenting, but if hardly any of 'em for games made with specific engines to get them exist, hope more of 'em get made to make it easier.

Relatedly, I've briefly been curious about Freedom Planet's map sizes time to time, but I felt they're technically longer than Sonic 3's both halves, along with Sonic Mania's, I think, because of how that game handled rather long maps in its stages via thematically connecting them from one section's map to the next, and so on, and so on, until the last section's reached, where the major boss is. I could image those ranging closely to the 10,000 horizontal ranges. That kind of handling long stages in that game was what I really enjoyed as its standing difference from Sonic 3's own structure. Too bad other games haven't utilized that method yet, but, people can still give it a try.

One user did rip them and posted on Reddit about the maps, but the link to it requires a Google Account for getting it via Google Drive. - https://www.reddit.com/r/freedomplanet/comments/53k0nb/looking_for_stage...

I don't feel like doing it, but someone else could and get it done.

I don't know about Freedom Planet 2's map sizes, but given their bigger well-made tilesets' chunk sizes, I could imagine their singular stage maps, of which the game has over dozens of stages in its set amount, by the way, being quite longer in size, that is, without the thematic connection to sections, because of it using Unity as the engine rather than Clickteam's engine.

Here's the link to these maps, but they're all zoomed out, and all split into parts, which kinda bums me out about their actual sizes. - https://risingslash.net/downloads/images/fp2/

Hope I get to see their actual full sizes soon. I'm curious.

Factorio's map, while infinite as you say, is pretty much proceduraly generated, so, yeah, that'd be much to ask to have it chronicled.

Shoot 'em up stages' maps are a rather different story, but, yeah, I imagine them being long maps, because of how they handle theirs differently, but, still, chronicling their sizes may be worth it. Others may be programmed differently, though.

Again, thanks, Nironicx, for letting me and others know what large map size we've got thus far. If another game comes out that surpasses that size, be sure to let us know.

As for those trying to chronicle more game maps, keep it up!

Sun, 10/08/2023 - 21:56

Bernston

For those thinking of contributing, here's this.

At the site's main page, there's an option called "Contribute", located between "Forums" and "Link To Us", where people who have actual game maps they would like to submit to the overall, ever-growing collection of maps so far. I think it might require a registered account, though, in order to make contributions. Nothing big. All you need to charter those maps are a few simple, yet necessary tools to get started... depending on what you like to start with. They just need to be pixel perfect to get a clear view of 'em, you know, picture-perfect sharp.

Just to let you know, if any map size discrepancies, small mistakes like accidental in-game screenshots, or minor errors that are in need of cleanup, just update them via re-sizing, correcting what's out of place or messed up, and, of course, re-submitting to get to their correct size and clean maps.

You can do so, if you like. Feel free to join in.

There's already loads of maps contributed so far, but so many more have yet to be contributed because new games are being launched a lotta times, along with so many overlooked/ignored games yet to be accounted for. And, believe me, there are so many. I've been looking time to time.

Also, registration to the site's forums is free, so, if you like, just go over to the forums, of which the link is right here - https://www.vgmaps.com/forums/, find the "Register" option, then just make your account. Easy.

Once done, you can, well, post discussions, make requests of what game maps yet to be added, talk about matters related to game maps, their sizes, and, so on, just to get some steam off. Its a rather neat community to get comfortable with once you get accommodated.

It is a rather nice cause to get involved in, and you'll feel like you're doing some good there.

Sat, 10/21/2023 - 07:01

Bernston

I feel some games with more bigger maps incoming...

I've just been looking at what later games may and will likely top Hollow Knight's position as the largest game map yet in history, and it would seem its sequel, Silksong, is seeking to mark that, with its developers, Team Cherry, behind its designing, as was for that previous game's Hallownest map, to make Pharloom, the sequel's set location, the biggest map we've seen yet.

A little note to state, Sonic 3's first Zone, Angel Island, had Act 1's map chunk reserved for the in-game intro seamlessly leading to the start upon reaching land, size of which is totaled around 12,416 x 1,664. Of course, by a technical standpoint, it technically ends with Fire Breath, its mid-boss, engulfing the field with its pyrophoric-loaded bombs all over, it continues into Act 2's map, of which a chunk of it is technically designated as Act 1 until the robot's destroyed. That map's size overall is a total of 19,584 x 2,688, a rather fine size significantly longer than Emerald Hill's sizes.

I honestly have no idea how long Sonic Rivals 1 & 2's maps are yet, but if someone could chart that up whenever able, that'd be great. I can only hope its closely long as either Advance 2's Zones, or Sonic Rush's Zones. Same goes for Sonic Superstars' stages.

Any game that makes the first stage longer than Angel Island Act 1's map would have a small portion reserved for said in-game intro, but the rest for gameplay as it begins seamlessly.

Of course, there is also one other Metroidvania game seeking to also top that size as well, meaning it could potentially serve as a rival game to the biggest game map yet. That game is called Fallen Tear: The Ascension, by Winter Crew, which sets in a world called Raoah, and stars a young boy, Hira, embarking on a perilous journey to face off countless dangers, such as enemy hordes comprising of enemy soldiers, creatures, monsters, the works, treacherous hazards, & loads of ferocious monstrous bosses, such as the self-proclaimed corrupt demi-deities of great power, to uncover its history from its centuries-long war and save it from such evil and calamity.

Here's the game's Twitter post about the map...

Fallen Tear: The Ascension's Twitter Post (whole map W.I.P., nothing final) - https://twitter.com/FallenTearGame/status/1713966804652179904

Fallen Tear's Map image - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8k7G-fawAALg__?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Fallen Tear's Trailer, for those curious of watching - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh-GCGyeR1E

My one guess about that game, it could very well rival Silksong's overall map size as the largest yet. I could presume the game's engine is Unity(which bites big on its latest anti-consumer and anti-privacy changes, in terms of its pricing), because its apparently one engine that does very large 2D game maps & crisp, hand-drawn HD animations... unless others state otherwise, in terms of capabilities.

One artist presently involved in that game's work, Eliz0r, posted on Twitter saying it is "OMEGA huge!!". Maybe that could be true, but we'll have to see. Post is right here - https://twitter.com/Eliz0r/status/1713973939309813766

Clickteam's engine, CF2.5, does large game maps, but I don't know how far it can reach thus far, other than surpassing its previous version's map/frame size limit of 32,767, both horizontal and vertical. My guess, the overall frame size limit is surely larger than the previous. Heart Forth, Alicia, made with that engine, could surely do well with its large map(well, yes, large, but not larger than Hallownest's), once launched and charted by people.

And, of course, I have been curious of Steam World Dig and Dig 2's maps, but I don't know what their actual sizes are. Only thing I know is Dig 2's maps are rather larger than Dig 1's. Hope someone can chart that, too.

Steam World Dig 2's Map Guide - https://gameplay.tips/uploads/posts/2017-10/1507225054_map.jpg

Charting such large maps takes time for one person to do alone, but through teamwork of said charters, that time can be greatly reduced.

Tue, 12/26/2023 - 18:20

Bernston

There's one thing that kinda bugs me at times...

With such past games that held the largest or biggest maps yet within time going on, I hardly understood why people that have yet to join in charting them took long to post maps, like Sonic Advance 2's maps, for instance.

I had a thrill with it(surely), but I had very rare amounts of curiosity about how long the game's maps were before their sizes were posted... not counting prior times with reduced sizes compared to the full sizes that weren't posted until lately. I didn't even know how long they were until now, honestly. Kinda hard to know how long they are when playing them before their maps are posted, even when we get the hang of knowing their routes.

If I had to take a guess on that, well, it would be because many of our computers' hardware at the time weren't capable of viewing larger maps, most likely of less powerful CPUs' processing power and small RAM amounts.

Well, because those have gotten much better over time, I can presume they're easily capable of full-size maps, especially to later games that topped prior games' sizes.

Of course, the people that worked on such games' maps have been very clever in providing impressively larger/longer maps with their hardware, even internal and proprietary, and key strategic decisions in revising their existing proprietary in-game engines made for specific platforms, like how Sonic Advance 2 gave us levels that were deemed six times larger than Sonic Advance's, because of its updated engine during its development, which, I've read, took 8 months in 2002, there. Whatever hardware's CPU power & RAM amounts they had used & worked with at the time must've been pushed closely enough to their limits.

I can still presume that with stronger CPUs & more bigger RAM amounts come more longer/larger 2D maps in developing them, yes? Don't have to count GPUs for this, right?

Nevertheless, that kinda technology's come a long way from early years. Of course, just because we're capable of creating longer maps, doesn't mean they have to constantly fall the presumed notions of said maps being Metroidvania sized. I have no problem with larger Metroidvania maps. Just the longer/larger maps in standard platform games that many people mistake their sizes for.

Also, I'm kinda not too keen on platform games made with shorter maps that are very close to, or parallel to, prior games' past maps, like Vengeful Guardian: Moonrider, for instance. I'm very appreciative of Joymasher's latest platforming game, but I kinda feel the maps should be longer. Should a sequel to it occur, that may need to be done. We're not living in days of short maps for games. Just saying.

And they don't just have to be hand-drawn, they can be made through pixel art, too.

If anyone hasn't known, we still have plenty more 2D games that haven't had their maps posted yet, even indie games. There's still so much more to know. Nice for more people to join in sometime soon if needed.

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