Spiral Knights - A decade later I pick this game up and remember the patch that made me drop it

A decade later I pick this game up and remember the patch that made me drop it

15 replies [Last post]

Tue, 07/29/2025 - 21:45

Orangeo

Throughout my ten year (?) hiatus I have never dropped another game on account of a single patch. There are other games I've gotten bored of, but Spiral Knights is the only game where I've gone from love to hate in a single day. I think I can have still fun making new characters, but grinding on my main is just horrible.

No one should pretend the mist system was good. I'm glad it got replaced. I was wealthy enough by the time it was changed that I didn't feel hindered by mist, but for new players, being able to only play 10 levels a day sucked. It drove people off, or encouraged them to get friends to drag them into levels that actually paid their market price back in energy costs. The only reason to play a level that gave less crowns than FSC was to play one of the lower tier boss dungeons for different tokens, and that's probably why we got two tier two dungeons and never another tier three. It anchored the price of energy to an earlier point in the game. There were other issues, too. Spending your mist energy on crafting instead of levels forced you to take the day off, and crafting with mist was exploitable with alt accounts. IMO, mist should never have applied to crafting and it should have just been 10 elevator rides if anything. The mist system was basically the same as how some games give people a loot bonus for their first 10 or so games, except instead of getting little to no loot after your 10 you just go straight into the negatives if you keep playing.

Holy cow the forge patch was not the right response though. Taking out the half-health revive shares? Bonding through that sort of activity is the only reason to really play this game, as far as mechanics go. The only reason I am here right now is because I wanted to give a pretty lady a true love locket I found in middle school. You're telling me I can't give her halfsies anymore when she dies? She has to grind Dreams & Nightmares for radiant crystals? Her connection probably doesn't even have the bandwidth to handle that laggy f***ing level if we're on a voice call. And on top of all of that, the crystals you earn have a chance to fail to function? All just so I can unlock the right to earn xp on a weapon? If you want to have fun in this game, you play the campaign once, maybe you beg a whale to let you tag along in a shadow lair, and then you quit without leveling your items.

Seriously, the supply depo patch was aggressive. Super aggressive. "Oh yeah we're going to let you unbind weapons for a massive energy fee and then also sell those weapons for slightly less energy than the fee on an NPC market, but also for slightly more energy than it costs to make it yourself." "We at Three Rings do not interfere with the player market at all." Why am I competing with you? Making elevator rides free was for sure a good thing but the heat crystals and the depo did little more than make me feel hated and attacked, and all I got in return were some boring missions with incredibly corny dialogue rife with random names of characters we never see on screen all in hopes of manifesting a headcannon in some neurodivergent teenager's brain.

Here's what I would have done. Every level is free, but only once per day. Want to keep playing for free? Quit grinding the same levels! Want to keep grinding the same levels? Well, now they cost 10, 20, 30 energy and so on the more you repeat them. This especially helps new players because they're unlocking new levels as they go. As soon as they make a breakthrough, they're rewarded with a place to explore, whereas endgame players are encouraged to go back and help with old bosses if they've already done FSC three times today. It would have spread people out so much more evenly across the arcade. But we didn't do that. We threw the arcade out, and we got those missions instead. You threw out the thing that I think of when I think of playing this game. When I describe spiral knights the first thing I want to say is "yeah it's a game about a clockwork planet full of elevators that descend into ever-changing biomes increasing in danger as you get close to the core" but what I have to say is "it's a game with a linear campaign and no plot or conclusion." You threw out your most beautiful idea in favor of literal torture.

Thu, 07/31/2025 - 04:32

Hatn

what the Boswick...

Ya know there's alternatives to Dreams and Nightmares, right?

Also ya don't need a whale to gain access to a SL. You can farm for a key, sure, but you can also split the cost of a key among all the members of your team if you wanna be extra conservative on your personal funds.

You wanna bring back level cost but in a modified format? Say goodbye to the majority of the player base. Limiting access to game levels in such a way is gonna push people away from playing

"it's a game with a linear campaign and no plot or conclusion."
So... your issue is the lack of plot/conclusion not the forge update itself? I'm confused

Thu, 07/31/2025 - 05:00

Orangeo

do people write stuff here for the sole purpose of being cringe

Why do you talk like this game isn't dead? Lmfao? I can look at the last post on any given board here and most of them are from two years ago or more. "Watch out bro what about the population. What if Three Rinks goes out of business. You got 2 be careful." Delusional narrative + tone-based argument + feigning confusion.

Thu, 07/31/2025 - 06:32

Sir-Pandabear

I preferred mist system to our current state of affairs by a lot so I like this suggestion, too.

My favorite part is how black kats would have to be reworked.

Thu, 07/31/2025 - 11:51

Hatn

huh

@Orangeo
If the game is still accessible then the game ain't dead. I find it kinda odd to be making that point as it makes me wonder why you'd post on the forums in the first place then.

As stated in my previous comment, I was offering alternatives to some of the issues you had previously faced in the game, as well as how the game would lose its playerbase if your suggestion was implemented. I was also trying to understand how you would describe SK in a way that didn't include your prior gripes in your post.

If you want to react emotionally to my unintentional and borderline non-existent implications then by all means, but I do want to point out I am coming from a place of genuine desire to understand your post better. This, as I see it, is a misunderstanding, and I hope we can reestablish the figurative bridge between us.

Thu, 07/31/2025 - 12:34

Orangeo

Pandabear! I remember you.

Pandabear! I remember you. Your profile pic makes me think you look like Zeddy. Not a bad look.

Anyways Hatn, you just don't talk like how human beings talk so I don't really care. Don't turn a person's criticisms of something you like into "their issues." Steamcharts proves the forge patch made no improvement to the game's overall decline. Any buzz made by the good parts like the gunner update faded in about three months.

Thu, 07/31/2025 - 13:02

Hatn

Zeddy? Where?!

@Orangeo
That's incredibly narrow-minded and black/white of you. I'd urge you to look more into the different ways people can (doesn't mean they do) communicate but I have a feeling that you "don't care" despite caring enough to respond... I also wasn't aware that I "liked" SK by suggesting alternatives to issues you have faced. You can assume all you want about me but that doesn't mean you're right.

Anyways, game's not dead.

Thu, 07/31/2025 - 20:06

Orangeo

The guy defending the forge

The guy defending the forge patch, quote, "wasn't aware he liked spiral knights"

Thu, 07/31/2025 - 21:24

Sweet-Hope

when they implemented the missions, i really disliked the idea of repeating with one single button. FSC i always though this was one of the main factors what dried the player population, players going forever on the same level because enemies are easy and net you a big profit, sure in no way that would make people get bored with the game. even with the forge, people were getting at 5 stars at faster rate than before, so no doubt they would hit ceiling of the game and get fed up with the game due the daily vana farming.

its a shame Nick´s idea never come to completion, making mission only for the lore and reform arcade to be a sandboxy area for players to get materials and loot.

i personally enjoy arcade variety specially danger rooms, but nowaday people dont join when i do runs because why waste time on a run wouldnt profit them if they can get 5-8k vana in less time?. and if they do somehow is just for the depth 23. only lobbies i find when searching in party finder is vana, vana and arcade???!?! oh wait depth 22 join in, they reach depth 23 and suddenly im all alone.

from time to time i just log in to play due my craving for a game like spiral knights, look for newbies that need help in those hard missions, or OCH tier3, or just my t3 run with my guildies that had become my long time friends, who just log if they see me playing SK in steam.

Sat, 08/02/2025 - 01:38

Fallen-Feces

Maybe it WAS better...

My hot take is that the game is actually better designed with mist energy in mind.

Now... BEFORE anyone gets heated at that inflammatory take, I would like to explain myself here. The thing about mist is that the game was designed around it from the ground up. In fact, I think it STILL is to this very day. First, you have the most obvious relics of that era: Energy activated objects. Danger room gates, treasure room gates, dormant mecha knights and laser sentries, etc. All of these things were implemented with the assumption that the player would have a small amount of disposable energy at any given moment. They could spend that bit of energy to potentially make their runs easier. This is no longer the case, and now danger rooms are typically ignored unless you're in stratum 6 because why spend energy on it when it has no chance of rads. People only open treasure doors if they can throw vials and check if it's even worth in the first place. Mecha knights and sentries are just COMPLETELY ignored now.

The thing I think many forget, however, is that the arbitrary playtime limit mist enforced was an important pillar that the game's economy relied on to be interesting. Now, given that you can at least buy basic things off the Auction House, obviously its removal didn't obliterate the economy, but think about it this way: Why would you EVER buy a material off the Auction House when you can just farm a given floor until you get enough? Well, back in the day you couldn't just farm them. If you were out of playtime and needed a material, you'd BUY it. Mist was the main reason materials were remotely worth buying/selling on the AH. Nowadays I can't even remember the last time I bought materials that weren't event, shadow lair, or boss token materials.

Back in the day, there were a lot fewer recipes so this next point might be a little confusing since I know we're all used to an obscene amount of bloat in Basil's stock of recipes down in the arcade. As far as I remember, recipes got their scarcity from people's inability to constantly grind them. This kept them valuable. Nowadays their scarcity is just a result of constantly getting the gunner update gear recipes instead of anything people would actually want.

Next up: Gear leveling. Heat used to just be a pure EXP system. Hit max heat? Your gear levels up. No fire crystal BS involved. The reason this worked was because you couldn't constantly play. This ensured that your progression would be kept at a certain pace unless you paid for more energy. As you probably guessed, removing mist would inevitably require some new system to limit your progression speed in terms of leveling gear and as a result we got the VASTLY INFERIOR forge system. Forge wasn't the ONLY gear related relic from the mist era, though. Aside from weapons, leveling your equipment only provides very minuscule improvements. I have no actual proof for what I will say next, but I suspect the justification for this lack of change in your gear was because leveling was never originally meant to be such an enormous ordeal to do. Back then it was very simple and passive, so your expectations would likely be low. Instead, we have to shell out a huge amount of time compared to before for nearly the same benefit.

Crafting is something I'm actually pretty conflicted towards. On one hand, I don't think it feels good at all to have to cripple your ability to play for a day just because you want to upgrade a single piece of equipment. On the other hand, someone made a good point when I discussed this a while back regarding how paying mist for crafting meant you could make meaningful use of your free resources even on days where you simply don't have the time to play the game much. I don't think crafting should ever cripple your ability to play like it did, but I can see the merit behind being able to progress without needing to play sometimes.

Now, I've saved my biggest point for last. Mist energy was the BIGGEST balancing factor in how you approached playing the game in the first place. One of the biggest problems players face right now is a severe lack of reason to play anything other than FSC. Not only that, but players are encouraged to actively avoid and ignore any part of a given level that lacks material rewards. People blaze through the entirety of FSC's first floor without killing anything just because it's apparently more profitable to just speed to the next floor where drop rates are higher. Even new players wind up being pressured to ignore huge chunks of the game just to keep up with people obsessed with grinding. This could theoretically be solved by boosting rewards in alternative missions or increasing arcade rewards across the board, but I honestly think that this would just result in a game of cat and mouse between the devs and players. Players will inevitably try to optimize the fun out of any game and this would be no different. Increase rewards outside of FSC? People will just find a new mission to label as the "meta farming method". Occasional adjustments to rewards would still keep the game fun, but it just seems like such a pain for a developer to deal with that.

You know what would solve that issue? MIST. Mist fundamentally changes how you play the game. Now that your time is limited, you're encouraged to maximize the quality of your playtime rather than the quantity if that makes sense. You can only play for so long, so why rush? If an average d18-29 run would take 1.5 hours at a causal pace and a speedrun through said depths takes maybe 30 minutes, then with mist involved both runs earn the same amount of money over the course of 2 hours or more. Speeding through levels now just means you're having fun for less time rather than earning more money. Though some levels would always be more "valuable" than others, mist single-handedly solves the pacing issue the game faces.

contd

Sat, 08/02/2025 - 01:43

#10

Fallen-Feces

Two word limits in just a few months!?

Now, this isn't to say that Mist should be re-implemented as it was in 2011. Mist existed in a very flawed state and was axed for a reason, but I honestly think the complete removal of mist was a mistake. I think that players simply wanted to be able to play the game they liked for as long as they wanted without needing to pay for either an elevator pass (which kinda defeats the purpose of mist anyways) or shell out loads of money on more energy. To that end, I think a sort of mini arcade could've been introduced.

Think of a NEW AND IMPROVED Advanced Training Hall. You would be able to play a version of arcade almost entirely themed around being a training session. All the enemies are variants of normal arcade enemies but instead they're robots and dummies made by the spiral order. This would provide players with a way to scratch their itch if they have a lot of free time. The important thing, however, is that this area would be strictly worse than the arcade for grinding. Instead of crowns or heat, this area should drop some currency similar to Krogmo Coins. This currency could be spent on exclusive stuff while maybe having the option to convert to crowns at a pretty mediocre rate if you've already bought all the cool stuff. Maybe even let people buy weapon and trinket slots with the currency! (I think they'd be particularly thematically well suited for a training hall currency)

Really the most important thing is to just give players a way to play the game as much as they want without directly affecting the game's economy and progression. I do think that alternative needs some kind of material reward even if very limited. Some people really just can't bring themselves to have fun if they don't feel like they're getting rewarded for their time beyond just having fun. (Constant FSC grind is a pretty big example of that)

Overall, I think the game was and always has been designed with mist in mind. The game just doesn't work like it's meant to without it and I really do think its reintroduction should at least be considered so long as a FREE and endless way to play is introduced alongside it.

P.S: I think sparks of life and health donation revivals can still coexist. EDIT: Removed the part after that sentence because I didn't really word it in a way that made sense and it's 3:40AM I think I'm too tired to figure out a coherent way to explain that.

Sat, 08/02/2025 - 03:08

#11

Hatn

Rage Bait or Genuine Stupidity?

@Orangeo
I too wish communication was as black/white as you may think it is, but it isn't. Maybe try to be a little more open-minded when it comes to neutral/opposing perspectives, as it'd breed a healthier discussion.

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@Fallen-Feces
I can think of at least 2 alternative reasons why someone may do a Danger Room: #1 Because the total amount of crowns earned from that room is more than the cost of the gate at current cr/e conversations. #2 It's fun, and doesn't have to be profitable to be played.

"You can only play for so long, so why rush?"
It depends on who you ask. If someone is limited by the amount of times they can run around in levels then it can go from a game of "fun" to a game of "how do i maximize my mist so i get the most value out of it?". That may be enjoyable for you but not everyone enjoys game systems that only allow you to interact with certain content for so long. I think mist in some capacity would still cause some players to be as optimal as possible instead of enjoying the game. There's also the issue of mass alt creation to fully take advantage of 100 free mist (think ragecrafting) but I never dipped my toes in that so I care little to give an opinion on that. There's also the stress involved of "wasting" excess mist because you're not playing on a daily basis... If SK kept the mist system then I think I would've stopped playing the game due to the stress/pressure that such a system breeds

I hope this doesn't come across as a strawman, but there's a reason at one point I had 3 active Genshin accounts, and it was due to the "resin system". In Genshin's case, I can explore the world but I am restricted to farm certain special resources/artifacts. In SK's case, once I run out of my 100 mist... the game turns into a social media platform- hardly anything akin to that of a "game" imho. Sure, some people still use SK as a social media platform nowadays, but at least they have the CHOICE to PvE whenever they want to.

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I'll actually give my (oversimplified) opinion on the forge patch though since Orangeo is somehow unable to fathom the existence of a neutral response that is devoid of implications.
Though I do think it's worth pointing out that the forge patch brought both positives AND negatives to the game that affected a vast variety of people.

Positives: VILE SEALS, Battle Sprites, free elevator cost (godsend for my F2P self), difficulty modes, loot decay timer removal, and farmable crafting orbs (godsend for my F2P self)

Neutral: new revive system (farmable sparks but no more running up to a player to administer "CPR"), and The Forge (both cos of gated gear levels but also forge boxes that could be resold)

Negatives: loot drop not being picked up team-wide, and mission rank gear requirements

Sat, 08/02/2025 - 08:09

#12

Thats-Rough-Buddy

Hatn and Orangeo, get a motel room already :)

It's clear that Spiral Knights has been optimized for whales, not normal players. The developers need to pay server and living costs though, so this is natural.

However, it is also clear that this game is throbbing with potential that can only be released with the right development resources.

There are so many changes that could get people to actually play the game instead of farming vanaduke/standing in haven all day/merching, like bots pretending to have fun.

Adding new Battle Sprites that use Moonstone and Valestone would be a start.

Sat, 08/02/2025 - 11:12

#13

Orangeo

He wants to breed with me?!

Sun, 08/10/2025 - 08:15

#14

Bopp

which patch?

I don't understand which day it was, when you went from love to hate.

mist system ... got replaced ... the forge patch ... taking out the half-health revive shares...

That's all in the mega-update of 2013-07-30. So that's the patch you're talking about? Yep, it was controversial.

(By the way, even in the mist days, many missions paid enough to buy the energy needed to run them repeatedly. But I get that many players didn't know that or feel that. It was off-putting.)

She has to grind Dreams & Nightmares for radiant crystals?

Now we're talking about later patch, right? As I recall, Radiants weren't particularly scarce at 2013-07-30. Knights playing at that time, including me, gathered up lots of them. The Radiant drought started later. I'm not sure exactly when. A month later? Certainly before 2014-02-26, when the Radiant drop rate was increased, although not back up to its original level of 2013-07-30.

...the supply depo patch was aggressive. Super aggressive. "Oh yeah we're going to let you unbind weapons for a massive energy fee...

Maybe I'm just too ignorant of the market, but I'm not sure what you mean here. The Supply Depot was introduced 2012-02-22. Unbinding was introduced 2011-7-20, I think.

Here's what I would have done. Every level is free, but only once per day. Want to keep playing for free? Quit grinding the same levels!

It's not a bad idea. :)

Sun, 08/10/2025 - 19:58

#15

Orangeo

My timeline could be off

My timeline could be off because I left and came back on a new character around when the radiant drought hit, so I treated them as the same patch. Like I am now, I was trying to play with a friend, but sometimes only one or the other of us would get the drops we needed to complete a mandatory quest, so we would become as slow as the weakest link and the weakest link would be forced to watch the other person get surplus drops like it was a joke. That was definitely enough to turn me off from the game for years and I think I didn't go back and hit 5* on that character until later than 2014.

I'm aware that there were more missions than just FSC that paid their worth in crowns back, but FSC was the best, and the more people play it, it the closer the exchange rate gets to that value, so even if it's not the literal only option it's the asymptote you're approaching. Potential copes like saying "well some missions have materials FSC doesn't, which would naturally be rarer and more sellable if the mission is less played" discount the fact that selling stuff is a hassle and afaik the market is dead anyways.

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A decade later I pick this game up and remember the patch that made me drop it