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An explanation for why the energy situation is crazy!!

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Thu, 06/04/2026 - 20:23
Refraizen's picture
Refraizen

Heyo, it's Refraizen. For those of you who don't know me, I'm very involved in the market and this thread is to help people understand why the prices of energy are so low currently, especially people who don't have an amazing grasp on economy in general. The date is June 4th, 2026, and the general price of energy is 30cr/E, or about 3k per 100.

IMPORTANT EDIT: AFTER THE DEPOX OF RAGE BOXES LITERALLY THE NEXT DAY, ENERGY PRICES ARE NOW CHANGING RAPIDLY AND THE SITUATION HAS DRAMATICALLY CHANGED. YOU CAN STILL READ FOR THE INFORMATION OF WHAT HAPPENED. THANKS GREY HAVENS!

Here is the most digestible explanation I can offer to somebody about how it happened, that skips a lot of stuff. This will give you the most basic grasp of the situation.

The updates have given us an influx of returning players, who shocked the system and the balance between cr/E at an extremely rapid pace. There's too much energy being generated and not enough usage for it. There's an increasing need for crowns which incentivizes more and more people to convert their energy to crowns, resulting in people constantly undercutting each other's offers.

There are no practical ways to fix the situation without GH's intervention via Supply Depot sales, which we need now more than ever. While Spiral Knights has a player-run micro-economy, it is extremely dependent as a whole on Grey Havens, via Promotional Boxes, Supply Depot Sales, Featured Auctions. We all know which of these has been lacking, and unfortunately it's the one that could balance the situation.

You should only continue reading past this section if you want to actively discuss it with others with an educated understanding, or if you just really want to know the fine details. It's very long.
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OK but why is low energy prices a bad thing?

The resulting consequences:
1.) The price of items traded in this game rise in terms of energy, making things generally unaffordable if you're paying in energy. Wow!! Inflation!!

2.) Because of that, people get less value for their real-world currency that they're putting into the game. It's an absolutely terrible time to be a whale/casual spender.

3.) Anybody who literally has any decent chunk of energy lost relative value. The bigger your energy hoard, the more that is lost.

4.) As many people have shifted to crowns for transactions due to it being a more "stable" currency, players are forced to convert their energy to crowns to buy things. Energy as a whole is becoming a useless currency.

5.) Additionally in the current situation, many players are panic-converting in order to effectively pull out of the energy market before it drops even lower to conserve the value of their currency, further solidifying it as a USELESS currency. It's a very similar effect to America's "The Great Depression."

6.) Because of the turbulent times, there is a rise of scammers looking to capitalize on the confusion of prices. By playing around with the numbers and convincing others that their currency is useless, tied in with some false information, scammers will utilize the situation to grossly oversell their items (even in crowns!), or to purchase items for dirt cheap from unsuspecting, unaware players (returning players, especially).

7.) The price of things in crowns after being recalculated from energy often gets a bit "lost in translation," and people will generally use numbers that are more convenient to them. This actually means that something that costed less in crowns pre-crash, may even result in higher overall prices than it was before. Everybody is guilty of this.

8.) I'm not even going to talk about auction house buyouts right now. That's a different topic but it contributes to increasing prices, while also being locked to only one form of currency to work with.

TL;DR: prices of all things go up in both cr and E, spenders' wallets are crying, energy is useless, scammers are rampant.
SO NO, IT IS NOT JUST BAD FOR MERCHANTS/HOARDERS. THIS AFFECTS ALMOST ANY PLAYER WHO INTERACTS WITH THE MARKET.

Energy fluctuations are typically normal and it's fine for it to sometimes be higher or lower, but currently it's way too low that it's breaking the normal balance that the economy has. Most of these consequences are unique to right now due to it being as low as launch date numbers.

The bright side of all this?
The Good(?):
1.) As energy is more affordable, this is newbie-friendly for obtaining orbs and progression materials. This is great!
2.) Trinket slots, unbinds, Shadow/Silver keys are more affordable. Lockboxes, however, are getting more expensive...
3.) FSC farmers, F2P, and other cr generating players who only pay in crowns are the least affected players.

yeah that's all the good.

If this all you care about, you can stop here. But if you want some fine details on the WHY, dive forward. Part 2 in comments.

Thu, 06/04/2026 - 20:52
#1
Refraizen's picture
Refraizen
Part2

Supply and Demand. It's a basic economic foundation that determines the price of things, and it holds especially true in Spiral Knights' free market economy. Basically, supply is how much of something is available in a given situation, and demand is how much people want it in the population.
This concept actually applies to the price of energy as well.

I'll break it down in more depth later but the long and short of it is that:
- Energy has low demand, and has a high supply. A lot of people have an abundance of it, and most people do not want it.
- Conversely, crowns have a high demand, but a low supply, relative to energy.

Uses:
- Crowns can be used for Auction House, Featured Auctions, and Punch rolling. You need a lot of crowns for any of these.
- Energy can be used for Trinket/Weapon Slots, Equipment/Accessory unbinds, and for purchasing things on the Supply Depot.

In reality, while it's way more complicated than I'll be making it out to be here, for the sake of a more simple explanation, remember these rules.
ENERGY PRICES GO DOWN IF:
- Energy is generated (increasing supply)
- Energy has nowhere to go or be deleted (low demand)
- Crowns are not generated (decreased supply)
- Crowns are needed (high demand)

1.) Recent updates have brought back hoards of returning players who are now old enough to have disposable income to spend on the game.
- Energy is therefore being generated in batches upon batches of 45kE instantaneously into the game, and are saturating the energy market very, very quickly. It is also the fastest method to obtaining what they want.
- They are usually not proficient enough to farm FSC as effectively as meta-running players yet.
- Even if they could, we're all adults now. We no longer have the time to spend 4+ hour sessions generating crowns.

2.) Forge boxes are becoming a meta way to obtain crowns. While it's not inherently a bad thing, it doesn't generate crowns; instead, it just recycles crowns in the system. We may be losing FSC farmers and crown generators because of this.

3.) There are not enough "energy sinks" in the game; energy is mostly deleted from the game via Supply Depot purchases, I.E "flash sale" depot sales that feature costumes, accessories, promotional boxes, and other misc items that are typically not on there. GH is not giving us any good one right now. Literally this entire situation could be resolved if they started giving us decent promo box depots, or a heavily overdue high-demand costumes/accessories periodically.

4.) We are still getting more featured auctions in this situation.

5.) Due to the turbulent economy, increased playerbase, and the number of returning players who are not fully aware of general market prices, the auction house is seeing much greater use, and players as a whole are capitalizing on the opportunity to throw things up there. This increases the need for crowns.

6.) The decline of energy has caused numerous players to pull out of the energy market altogether and are now only working in crowns for transactions. Not only does it FLOOD the energy market to convert to crowns, it also REDUCES the demand for energy, while INCREASING the demand for crowns.
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Okay I hope this helped ya'll. It's probably a bit messy but I tried. If you think I'm full of it or exaggerating, that's fine. This is just my understanding and perspective of how we ended up here, and if you disagree with some things, there is nothing wrong with that - my aim was to just inform people of what's happening especially since it's being ask about a lot.

Also this era of SK is a bit much for me, so I may be taking a bit more of a break from the game than usual. I AM NOT QUITTING, DON'T ASK FOR FREE STUFF. Okay byeeee.

Thu, 06/04/2026 - 22:31
#2
Jazzberry-Jam's picture
Jazzberry-Jam
my two crowns

i really think this is mostly a nothing burger

you listed a bunch of consequences for this situation, but most of them are avoidable or not that impactful or important:

1) don' trade using energy and you won't feel the inflation
2) the only loss in value happens if you try to convert energy into crowns
3) that's like saying someone bought an expensive pair of shoes a month ago and since they are now 50% off in the store, it's bad for them. sure it sucks, but you can't expect the game to preserve the value of your items in perpetuity.
4) always found it weird that people used two currencies at the same time for trades. most other mmos that come to mind do not do this. energy is fine the way it is as the utility currency for special unbinds, progression helpers, sparks of life, etc.
5) people will no longer trade each other using energy. why is that bad? this is amazing. if the game ever gets an influx of new players, just think about how easy it will be for them to get more energy for the alchemy orbs they need to pass the grind walls in the game. love it for them
6) "this is bad because scammers exist" report them, ask the help of a gm, make sure you stay informed, help inform others. nothing new here
7) people always try to get better deals from themselves. this was always the case, even with more valuable energy, nothing has changed. in fact, it will get easier going forward if people only use 1 currency in trades, no more conversions needed

tldr: i believe game would be healthier if players only traded between each other in a single currency, one for which you have to play the game to obtain rather than spend real money or buy one currency, wait for conversion prices to shift in your favor, convert for profit, repeat.

energy is just as valuable as before and just as useful as before to get sparks, orbs, crystals, unbinds and whatever else your heart desires from the depot.

Thu, 06/04/2026 - 22:49
#3
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

Now, I am not an economy, but I when I started playing this game in 2011, it was at its most popular (I think, it felt like), energy prices were around 2000 and we lamented it going up to 3000 where it seemed to stay stable. 3000 has thus always felt like the "correct" place for the price to be since it was that way for most of my playtime. Not that I engaged with the market all that much, I'd buy a $20 energy pack once a month or so using money from my minimum wage job.

This was back when the game had constant energy sinks in the form of energy being mandatory for crafting above 2* as well as mandatory for playing more than a dozen dungeons in a day. On the flip side, crowns were a limited resource that cost time and/or energy because you could only run so many dungeons in a day, so it was truly different times.

I miss those times. Mist Energy was healthier for the game because 10 floors a day kept you from burning out on realizing how little content there was actually available, but there is simply no closing that Pandora's box.

Fri, 06/05/2026 - 00:38
#4
Pdtopgun's picture
Pdtopgun

I find this situation fascinating because I've been playing this game off and on (a big chunk of off until recently) since 2011, and the only money I've ever spent on it was to buy OCH. I've never once bought disposable premium currency for a game, and I have no plans to ever do so. It's just...completely against my nature. So in that context as someone who only rarely buys things from the AH, doesn't roll for UVs unless I get a free forge box ticket, and could not care less about pretty cosmetics, this situation has been fantastic. I've made a few recent Depot purchases I never would have otherwise (new battle sprite!), and despite usually resisting it and waiting for luck to strike I'm almost at the point where I may start throwing energy at orbs occasionally. I get that at its core the game requires someone to be spending real money in order to keep functioning, and I'm very grateful to the collective playerbase that does so, but given how far I've seen the energy market skewed in the other direction in the past this feels pretty good.

(Now if GH really wanted to get my money, they'd offer a few permanently-obtainable things for it. Like if they woke up tomorrow and said "here, how about $5 for a permanent third weapon slot unlock"? I'd do that in an instant without thinking twice.)

Fri, 06/05/2026 - 04:54
#5
Gonnamad
About your fortune

Stop treating this monopoly money like it has actual value. Yes, we all spend real cash on the game, but thinking your casino-style box gambling will never lose value or that you can 'trade up' is a delusion. At the end of the day, we’re just playing a game with fake currency to look cool and get a few good weapons. Time to accept the truth.

And low energy prices are good for new players. I like how noob can afford his orbs in just 40 min of casual gameplay.

Fri, 06/05/2026 - 06:21
#6
Refraizen's picture
Refraizen
comments are amazing tbh, was originally not gonna.

@Jazzberry-Jam
your points 1 & 2 don't make sense; you're basically just saying don't spend on the game and it won't affect you, which you probably are. Additionally for point 7, you've missed the entire point of this post if you think conversion prices will ever shift in their favor in the current economy.

Incase you forgot, it's spenders who keep the lights on. So apparently, it's not a problem if the avg player now has to spend about $30 now, for an item they only would've had to spend $20 last week? Okay sure.

Also point 6, it's known that GH does not do anything about these types of scammers/sharkers, who make their trades based on convincing you of the wrong price rather than outright stealing. They get away with this because it does not break TOS, and that's why these scammers are a problem. They believe it's part of the natural "free market economy."

@Gonnamad
the idea that energy hoards lose value, and merches lose value, is, by far, the least important problem in this entire post. I literally don't care about that to be honest with you.

@everybody
guys the problem exists and a majority of the people feel it which is why there's a lot of posts complaining about energy prices or lack of supply depots. If it doesn't affect you personally, that's really awesome! But if you're not equipped to understand that it is a problem, please don't outright deny it's there.

Fri, 06/05/2026 - 06:18
#7
Refraizen's picture
Refraizen
@Zeddy

Early launch energy prices make sense because mist energy was also in place. That's not the case any more, and the game's economy has had many years to stabilize into its groove. There's a few people (Fangel included) who've calculated the ideal price of energy based on hard-coded numbers post-removal of mist energy, and while I can't remember the exact numbers they all got, I do remember that every single one fell between 5k to 7k crowns.

I'm in the majority who believe removal of mist energy was a wonderful thing since it uncapped gameplay, and made it a lot easier for non-spending players like me to progress.

Fri, 06/05/2026 - 09:35
#8
Draycos's picture
Draycos
History repeats

What you're identifying right now is the same thing that happened when the game rereleased as a Steam game. It's a good thing. It means blood is pumping and there are efforts to grow the game instead of just wring out anybody left attached to it. I'm personally very pleased even though my pile of energy I set aside years ago in case a friend ever wanted to play this game but didn't want to fight the microtransaction hellscape it became is now worth thousands of less crowns at today's prices than when I'd put in the buy orders for it.

Spenders keep the lights on. Spenders are the people buying energy today because they already find the current price acceptable to them, which the existing bubble could not have predicted because it was predicated on several years of GH not doing anything to develop the game and exclusively catering to its existing userbase of a few big spenders and sterling representatives of the free, info-blind market (scammers).

Speculative, hoarded wealth in a game where money prints itself is fundamentally volatile, and so only items that are completely exclusive to realworld direct purchases are 'protected' from the actions of the playerbase regarding crowns generated and CE purchased. I have no pity for people whose inventories got devalued by falling CE prices in the same way I try not to blame anyone for selling things at exorbitant prices when CE was more expensive. It's how the system was originally meant to work, where paying players subsidize free players and vice versa. Right now, the game is being made more welcoming to new or returning players by the actions of the new and returning players actually playing Spiral Knights instead of primarily using it as a trading simulator with a fashion show and game attached to it vestigially. An excellent development, courtesy of GH advertising stuff and things of vague intent are in the works on the gameplay side of the equation.

There are no shortage of crown sinks what with UVs and slime lootboxes (also guildhall upkeep but that has very little gameplay impact), both addictive gambling with extremely high upper boundaries. Featured auctions also sink crowns for more cosmetically-inclined players. The blindspot for CE right now is a lack of Supply Depot specials, where the prices for cosmetics relative to real-money-to-CE have usually been absurd as they're proportional to their original acquisition rates from the boxes they came with, if they were previously released that way. It would be nice if there were more depot listings to revive those items - which would raise the prices of energy which I personally don't like, but would make them far more healthily available since depot purchases are completely consistent, no gambling involved.

The removal of mist energy did not uncap gameplay. You could continue to play and earn money despite paying for the elevator costs so long as you were committing to runs to get to deeper floors, selling your materials from underplayed stages (esp. Monster Bones and Green Shards because crafting was the only means of generating UVs), or slaving away in the highest paying floors. Your value of time to gameplay was actually improved by mist energy, where you were guaranteed to be making progress no matter how you spent it since anyone playing in excess was being gently taxed. Raw crown output trended toward the highest-paying stages; material worth trended toward the crowns in circulation just like it did with CE; and CE was occasionally bundled as a bonus from purchasing paid cosmetics. Elevator passes existed as a subscription middleground between the existing microtransaction walls and playing the game. It was a very nice setup where no matter what you did, your time was worth something. There were other little things involved that greased it too, like tier latejoin fees and the like... Still, it would've been nice if the mist cap was higher; say 200 rather than 100.

In terms of the hours you spent playing the game, the original system was restricted grind with consistently fast progress, and what we have with the Forge is infinite grind with consistently slow progress. CE prices utterly exploded when mist got removed and were more susceptible to rigging with no such farming clamps and with the addition of direct crown-to-UV trades via Punch, alongside rarities, missions, and the like. You could now grind indefinitely with no upfront tax (a very effective trojan horse change) - and in exchange you have to grind far more than you would've in terms of game time. You could spend 7 hours over 7 days previously or 7 hours in 1 day today and still be playing the same number of levels, but in the latter's case we have an environment where inflation has no brakes and crafting costs were generally sharper because it was no longer possible to buffer 100 CE's worth of crafting costs with mist and orb droprates are low enough that playing early stages is not more efficient than playing the highest-paying T3 stages that can convert crowns to CE to buy them from the depot directly... Even today's CE prices are contextually less favorable despite being similar to the ~3k the game had on release and on Steam rerelease.

I think the forge box changes were brilliant. An excellent move! The unused orbs from longtime players can now be used for UV-chasing just like the pre-Punch days of yore, which is driving material prices up for desirable items, and because the primary rewards from forge boxes are UV tickets, this serves as gentle equalization between energy and crowns beyond vendor prices. A strong balance patch that improves a lot of the game's underperforming or worthless equipment to encourage the creation of more gear would have beautiful synergy with this. Turbillion is a fine weapon numerically and one of the few nice things GH's done on the gameplay side since its reacquisiton, and all they had to do was tune its stats and give it a new model! They didn't even have to fix its still-malfunctioning terrible charge attack. I wish they would, though.

Knowing how all of these systems work, it's a miracle the game's so quickly returning to healthy shape economically, and it's proof that SK always could've been something if only something had been done with it.

EDIT: ... and now there's a Rage prize box, not Rage items directly, in the depot. Oh well. So much for things looking up.

Fri, 06/05/2026 - 09:34
#9
Fallen-Feces's picture
Fallen-Feces
LETS TANK THOSE NUMBERS!!!!!

Were your post to be more about wanting supply depot listing for the sake of it I'd completely agree with you but let's be real here anyone who doesn't spend real money on the game outright benefits from this. Trying to tell me that I'm being harmed by letting this happen just feels like gaslighting.

This player-run market is stupid. It just pits us against each other by creating this conflict of interest. Whales wanna keep a steady buying power, F2Ps wanna be able to afford standard depot necessities. The real answer is to just remove it and give us static rates.

Fri, 06/05/2026 - 17:52
#10
Jcyrano's picture
Jcyrano
You are right about it

Fallen made a valid Point and another player said that Promo boxes being better on real currency over Energy packs could force the Energy hoarders to get rid of it instead of Just pilling...(this could backfire, but extend the Low rates and they'll have to move the Energy, because demand wont stop)

Sat, 06/06/2026 - 09:33
#11
Vyre-Acidlashed's picture
Vyre-Acidlashed

As far as I'm concerned, at this point, the in-game economy is really the shadow on the wall of the cave. The real matter at hand is the gameplay loop and lack of desirable things to buy. When your money enters GH's business account, the value in your hands is explicitly and exclusively tied to the enjoyment you get out of it. Buying energy - either for crowns in trading, cosmetics, or supply-depot items - implies buying products for the value they have to you as a player of the game, in the game, as they cannot (and should not) represent a recoupable investment, no matter what whale-players might want.

I'm F2P. Not because I don't want to spend - I do, as soon as something desirable goes on offer - but because I can have a good time with the game using just the current material drops. This also means I generate a lot of crowns. I run solo to practice damageless runs, and carry to assist players heating their gear. I like the gameplay, and I put that material into the game world by trading for gameplay-only items that will never enter circulation again as they're part of my build. As a result, my knight represents an Energy Sink, for now.

To quote Draycos, with whom I very strongly agree overall here,
Right now, the game is being made more welcoming to new or returning players by the actions of the new and returning players actually playing Spiral Knights instead of primarily using it as a trading simulator with a fashion show and game attached to it vestigially. An excellent development, courtesy of GH advertising stuff and things of vague intent are in the works on the gameplay side of the equation.

Right now, the game feels great. The game is rewarding to actually play, and I don't have to depend on the "hit" of looking pretty or making a big trade. I'm not that interested in that part of the experience. Eventually, though, I will run out of things to do. I see that moment coming fairly soon, because my build is nearly finished, and I can't find that many new players to support in my region at the hours I normally play, as I don't really enjoy the idea of being dragged along to meta-heavy, "perform or leave" parties when I'm trying to unwind with a nostalgic game.

As much as I like it, there isn't enough to do in-game. Not having enough to buy is only part of the problem. Extending the grind is the wrong answer, even if it would correct the market. Increasing how much gambling a player can do is also the wrong answer. To facilitate spending and to keep a healthy playerbase, there needs to be desirable and available content that has meaningful enjoyment value to a player.

I find myself agreeing with Draycos (again) about a strong balance patch - I would play for even longer if I was given the ability to create a viable build out of any gear I wanted, because I enjoy playing, and would enjoy crafting new builds through that gameplay, but I would again run into the fact that there's nothing to do with all these new items if the core gameplay experience isn't developed further. Right now, all I can really do is build best in slot, then... go crawling back to everyone's old ex, Lord Vanaduke, I guess.

I will certainly buy things from the supply depot if they are things I want at a price I think fair - presently, a Rage Prize Box at £9.95 ($13.28 at time of writing) is not desirable. I wouldn't do the crown grind for that, either.

You know what would be desirable? Superdungeons - not just shadow lairs. More bosses. Mission packs. Hell, more levels would be nice. More scenario rooms. A healthy rotation of cosmetics that don't involve gambling. A wider variety of gameplay experiences. I have a handful of ideas of things I want to see that deepen the gameplay and I truly believe that would help with player retention, as the other part of the equation for promoting spending is higher time-in-contact with the game, and the best way to do that is to... add more game. Not just Skinner Boxes, Loot Boxes, or any other damned boxes.

I absolutely do want to spend money on this game - but the sword cuts both ways. I want to spend money on the game, not just energy, or cosmetics, or whatever. I buy trinket slots, I buy weapon slots, I buy fire crystals, but I am doing that with crowns. The conflict of interest that exists in the playspace as it currently stands is an obstacle - the absolute healthiest way of getting this game rolling is to make it desirable by enriching its content and the availability thereof, not by driving wider wedges into the cracks in the stonework with this push-pull of "energy should be High," "no, energy should be Low."

Energy should just be attainable and usable without driving away F2P players with expense, or driving away P2P players with a lack of percieved value. A balance pass would help with the former, a pricing adjustment would help with the latter, and more content would improve the experience of both playertypes.

I find myself agreeing with Fallen that a separation of currencies might help, but I've already spent my break on writing this post and I'd have to think about the implications of that separation much harder. The only relevant aspect to game health is whether people are playing, staying, and spending, and if at the end of the quarter, operation costs are covered by that engagement. The truth is I don't want to put myself at odds with anyone here, because I think we're all approaching the same conclusion - the real problem that's being identified here but not named, is that buying doesn't feel good because the return on those purchases feels lacklustre. It's not just about the crowns.

Sat, 06/06/2026 - 12:32
#12
Fallen-Feces's picture
Fallen-Feces
Post-Capitalist Economy (and more buzzwords)

I exist in a similar position to Vyre at this point. I've already gotten most of what I want that would cost me real money. I got my dream costume. I have all of the reasonably acquirable "good" weapons. At this point, the only thing left for me to spend on is messing around with more gimmicky or just bad gear. I just play for the sake of playing now, although it's always nice to get the "number go up" dopamine hit when looking at my crown count.

Merchants seem to be playing a completely different game from the rest of the playerbase. Feels like when someone reaches the "endgame" they either start trying to do trading and focus on money or just start collecting gear or even just quit since there's nothing else to do. A lot of people just don't care for the whole "economy" shtick and so they just putter around with nothing to do and nothing to buy other than the few cosmetics they genuinely want to use.

Supply depot listings may placate your needs for now, but how will the new players feel when they have to watch the price of energy rise in real time? A surge in energy prices could very well cripple the effort to revive this game. Just because it's been years since energy was 10kcrs doesn't mean it can't happen again and a huge surge of new players flooding the market with more crowns than ever before will cause that pretty fast I'd think. This market is more headache than it's worth.

edit: forgot to bring this up but I feel like even as a progressing player crowns don't hold much worth to me. It's always cheaper to buy orbs via depot than it is AH. Energy was always my go-to when I was progressing, even if a majority of stuff offered there was overpriced (700e for 50 radiant crystals or $10 for a 5* gear good lord). What are crowns used for that a new player would engage with? Recipes are really the only thing that comes to mind. Not much else is really worth even buying on AH. Materials have been a non-issue to anyone not looking to rage craft ever since missions were introduced. Maybe the occasional orb if I'm really really impatient. No sane person blows crowns in a mission lobby for a vitapod or some junk like that. Crafting costs are negligible.

If anything I think crowns hold too little value to the average player, not energy. It's only once we hit endgame that our demand would theoretically skyrocket and that entirely hinges on us perceiving UV gambling or cosmetics as worthwhile ventures which many don't. When allowing us to trade between two types of currency, we'll need to constantly try and balance their value by surgically messing with the things they're used for. This is just a lot of unnecessary work.

Sat, 06/06/2026 - 15:17
#13
Draycos's picture
Draycos
I like the cut of your jib

I'm with you two 100%.

Actual new game content is the dream, yeah. A balance pass is very low-hanging fruit since it's a lot easier to work with what already exists - bare minimum of number tuning, no strict need for new models, vfx, sounds, anything - than it is to create something totally new... though I'd love unique and mechanically new effects for a lot of armor and fixes to how some weapons' movesets work on top of boosting their numbers. Antiguas and Catalyzers are examples of weapons that need more than just tuning. Combo finishers in general could use a boost whether final swings on swords or final shots on guns. So on and so forth...

Still, even if efforts were limited to only boosting the damage values of mechanically fine but numerically lacking weapons like Troikas and Cutters or giving stronger offensive and defensive properties to armors that have zilch and nada respectively (or even crippling status weaknesses on top of their nothing!), there's a lot of free real estate for good to be done.

Sat, 06/06/2026 - 16:43
#14
Vyre-Acidlashed's picture
Vyre-Acidlashed
This is a big post, and I'm sorry about that.

I don't want to softball my argument by playing both sides - but I would be remiss if I didn't say that I do actually agree with Refraizen, in that there is an economy problem that is getting slowly worse, and I do think that there is value in keeping players invested in the game economy, whatever shape it takes.

I just disagree that the solution to this problem is playing with the values *in* the game economy, when this boils down to a question of it's worth in the *real world.* Players want good value from this game - players want good value from any game. Expecting heavy investment from players into a game as aged as this so soon after rather minor changes, then ultimately claiming that "this will fix all ills" is not exactly compelling reasoning.

The most telling things here are that 1) Rage Boxes have been re-released, and the market has remained pretty fixed around 3200~3800cr (VERY generously estimated) even despite a brief uptick in energy value, and 2) Rage Boxes have been re-released, meaning that we're currently only selling to players who a) want those back, and/or b) know what to expect. It's good! BUT, while this feels like an olive branch for returning players and a treat for new players, these two factors taken together makes it appear that this move only appealed to past players who are used to this treadmill.

New players who aren't aware that the wiki lists what a re-run prize box contains might not want to take the risk, as stat tables don't show in-game, and if they do know that the prize pools are listed, they're able to "wear before they buy" in a way. This curtails whatever brief value might have been injected by the introduction of a past prize box as soon as players start writing off a cosmetic pack as "uninteresting." It's a nice gesture, but it's just not enough. Fixed Depot Trades would help, too, but there needs to be more done than simply play with such a volatile economy until it starts behaving by accident.

The tension being engineered here is this: Under the current game design, Premium players want CE to be valuable so that it's worth spending it and obtaining it, Free players want CE to be valueless so that playing the game isn't tedious or overly reliant on statistics they have little to no control over (inclusive of the economy itself!).

It isn't possible to please both groups without introducing another factor to the calculus that's being done here - by its very nature a player driven currency-trading economy is zero-sum (in fact, negative sum, with 2% crown deduction). Grey Havens gets their money no matter what, because it gets to them when the transaction is completed, not when players start spending it.. Even if players just swap currencies back and forth forever, that 2% depletion WILL absorb 50% of energy after 35 exchanges no matter the value of the currency, because that deduction is made in the immediate term (at least in most cases; we can posture as much as we want but players hedging on their CE gaining value over the course of a full year are in the minority (or at least they should be, in a healthy game that is correctly incentivising spending)). That energy absorption is READILY amortized over even a modest player concurrency, with the first fifteen trades on the same "batch" representing the most absorption.

The missing piece is almost certainly worth. Premium players want buying CE to be worth their money, and Free players want earning CE to be worth their time.

If a premium product isn't worth the money, then it's undesirable by default to a premium player, or would perhaps be offset by crowns earned through play, but if it's not worth a player's time, the situation is completely different - that doesn't immediately imply lack of worth, so much as it implies immediacy of want. A free player might become a *paying player* on the merit of that alone; "I DO want it, but I want it NOW, not LATER." Failing to win the "worth game" for a premium player imperils retention of a player that's already paid for their fun, but failing to win that point for a FREE player deprives GH of earning potential outright, so the risk of failing to appeal to them is (arguably) higher, at least when modelling in the long term. It's so important to remember that buying energy with crowns can form part of a premium purchase - a free player might meet the cost of a premium item halfway through gameplay, and make up the rest with real dollars, and that's still a win for GH.

Fallen makes a compelling point when they claim that crowns aren't worth much to them - I find myself thinking that moving boosters to the crown side of the economy and keeping progression skips on the energy side could be a step towards that "separation of currencies," but it's of course not the whole solution to the problem. In a way the separation should be notional rather than actual; engineering an economy where F2P players don't feel like they're being squeezed just to play is the end goal, while leaving the door open to the enticing world of "things they could get if they put in a lot of time (or juuuust a little money :) )"

Crucially, I don't believe there's a monster to slay here, I just think that GH has inherited a game with complicated incentive structures from a company owned by a publisher (i.e. SEGA) that would be rightly interested in high and fast return on investment. That knot will take time to unpick because it's deeply engrained into game structure, and the best way we can assist with that is by keeping a healthy discussion that validates the concerns of both player groups. Making claims rooted in the stability and safety of the trading elements of the game is *relevant,* but mostly just to players that have paid... but for some reason, haven't spent.

It's unbecoming of me to poke holes, but at least on its face, the outlining points in post 0 here are:
1) focused on the cost of progression-skipping items (devaluing gameplay and game "worth" by removing time spent playing),
2) A point I fully agree with for reasons aforementioned,
3) relevant only to players in that minority who hoard energy (meaning they have seen nothing worth buying in the depot),
4) see 3,
5) see 3,
6) A reasonable but easily managed concern even in the short term,
7) Pretty standard in *every* economy containing people willing to round prices up for convenience, but also true,
and 8) see 3, but only because those panic-purchased crowns are *going somewhere.*

I will not sit here and say these points are *wrong*, but they're leaving an important player group out that in actuality has the same concerns.

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