Spiral Knights - Change the Bombastic Demo Suit defense

Change the Bombastic Demo Suit defense

47 replies [Last post]

Sun, 06/28/2026 - 19:23

Estebag

Hi! i want to talk about the demo class and his armor set choices in the game.
i have seen a great variety of armor sets for the demo class, but there is an issue, most of them have ELEMENTAL defense
a long time ago there was a new set introduce that has PIERCING defense wich was a really nice addition because before that there was no set with piercing defense for DEMO, i have been playing so much of it and it is a really nice play style

anyways the issue i came to discuss is about is that there is no accesible shadow defense set for the demo class to craft
something that you can get anytime in the game no matter what, the KAT HISS armor set is the ONLY option for demo that has shadow defense, but is not something you can get whenever you want in the game, only during a kataclysmic confrontation event
wich is sad, so i was looking at the bombastic demo set, and i realize that maybe at some point it was meant to have SHADOW defense and not elemental, because it also have freeze status resist and is also shown on the Kataclysmic event official artwork that we always see when the event is shown on the page, that artwork that has been used ever since the event was introduced on 30 January 2013

well, the whole solution to this would be to change the bombastic demo suit base defense from elemental to SHADOW, just to have an accesible demo armor set that provides shadow defense and have more options rather than just elemental for every set
and to be more accesible for all players unaware of the kat Tribe armor sets (wich also could use a little buff, except black kat)

recently i was able to craft the Kat Hiss Cowl, but only because i had some tokens laying around and you can also buy Kat Tribe Fetish materials on the auction house for a cheap price.
is not like something CRAZY INSANE that needs to be done ASAP, but something nice that players might appreciate
myself included, if it happens it would be awesome, but if not, thats totally fine.

thankyou for reading.

Mon, 06/29/2026 - 05:07

Bopp

bigger problem

KAT HISS armor set is the ONLY option for demo that has shadow defense, but is not something you can get whenever you want in the game, only during a kataclysmic confrontation event

Yeah, you can get it only twice per year, but that's not a giant problem. The real problem is that the suit requires Wicked Whiskers, which are ultra-expensive. If Wicked Whiskers weren't required, then Kat Hiss would be a legitimate shadow-defense armor line with decent bombing abilities. That would solve your entire issue.

In general, your point stands. A lot of these armors have not been rebalanced since pretty much the launch of the game, when damage types were still in flux and there was a lot of not-entirely-thoughtful design.

Mon, 06/29/2026 - 09:36

Jcyrano

You are right about it

Bopp is right, the problem is not the Bombastic Set. Is the Wicked Whiskers.
1 Whisker to start the line at 3* then, not again, ever, and You fix the Not Black Kat sets, if You pay attention none of those sets are bad nor power-creep the other Gunner, Fencer, Bomber sets. Cost wise is Insulting.
And I dont mind not having a every defense set, it means I can "tank some hits" not all, turrets are a pain to deal(Do not pay attention to Dark Retribution) and should remain somekind of it so having Piercing and Elemental armour make sense, as bomber you try to avoid getting close to things or lurethem where Your bombs are (hence why the turrets are a pain to deal...), and as bomber Shields are an option that the 3*(Allstars) shield doesn't affect, so You can use them to tank without needing full type defences armours.
But the Whiskers situation Must be kept in mind and be addressed.

Mon, 06/29/2026 - 14:25

Estebag

I AGREE

In that case is true, it makes sense that you need those to make the black kat armor, wich is by far the strongest one, and the other ones are outshined by it, so yeah, i think just removing the wicked whiskers that are needed from the recipe would fix this issue and make those armor set more accesible to players

i was just saying that the bombastic demo set could be a decent shadow defense armor for demo class, but i think that the those armor sets have a bigger issue which is a very very expensive cost to make.

Fri, 07/03/2026 - 15:50

Jcyrano

I still don't understand how it works

Guess whos back? Black Kats "Yay"..! Guess what cost didn't change, Wicked Whiskers! Yay..! Wait...

Tue, 07/21/2026 - 10:24

Holy-Nightmare

I think the real issue is

I think the real issue is that bombers in general don't have quite as much love thrown their way in general

The new stuff is appreciated but it was only a half measure and still doesn't fix all the gaps in bomber viability

The number of viable team friendly bombs is low, if you just count damage dealers it's even lower, defensive options are lacking or extremely restricted. Even when it comes to non-bomber specific gear the benefit you glean from it is minimal. Swiftstrike Buckler gives a very minimal upside to bombers, and the only other shield with a perk they might appreciate is the 3 star Scarlet shield just for the pinch of extra HP you may need because you can't put up your shield as fast as a gunner or swordsman build.

It's to the point that you may have to abandon a demo set for the Angelic set line if you're looking to get some sort of perk fighting monsters that deal shadow damage... which oddly highlights another issue is that Zebulon doesn't offer a lot of sets... 1 for beast, 2 for slime, 1 for fiend.... 1 with a fiend debuff.. and only a half set for undead.... Ironically it's Daxen that offers the best bombing set for undead with the Deadshot set thanks to it's Very High undead boost

Tue, 07/21/2026 - 13:12

Jcyrano

"Swiftstrike Buckler gives a

"Swiftstrike Buckler gives a very minimal upside to bombers" Does effectively nothing "3 star Scarlet shield just for the pinch of extra HP", nor this one... the game still Is aggressive towards health Stacking builds.

You are better geared with a Nice 5* Shield, and that's much better than a 3* whatever buff You can imagine that: "Increase Your damage". Why? You can Tank a hit since Shields regen and health doesn't specially if status are involved, before anyone address the healing options, remember the game still is aggressive towards health Stacking builds.
Bombing is not about "spamming Damage" as much Mr: 'I spam nitronome', tries to make everyone believe. Is About positioning and a good shield helps while You are doing that. That and providing an actual shield to Your party friends.

"you can't put up your shield as fast as a gunner or swordsman build." This is true, I don't know Why though

Angelic set line is a suggestion, but Chaos as annoying as it is to "recommend" is a better gear for shadow damage and providing CTR.

Bombers do not need much in terms of Gear (Primarily to avoid Gunners 'Pletora of Fiasco' Update situation), need Chaos not to overstep on Mad Bomber Set ground, and black kat not giving all the damage posible, and that Would be enough to make Bomber gear show up again. Also Bombs Should NOT be the Weapon to do Everything in the game easy and reliable, the BlitzNeedle already proves what happen when You get that... becomes invasive and obnoxious. Bombs Should remain an Option.

The love is However much needed/welcome, in form of Care and Observation... and probably a 15% damage increase to all bombs (in some cases thru status, not even direct damage, but status duration would be nice). Not necessarily by trying to make Bomber gear behave like Fencer nor Gunners or caring for what stats those sets want.
But Artificial extending gameplay time disguised as 'Diversity' will cause to less people to interact with it, like the gunners set did... How many people You see Going for those sets because they are good? and how many still say: "nahh... Chaos Set or Black Kat!"? that update gave nothing real there, same would happen to Bomber's Gear.

And I might agree with Estebag.. on changing Bombastic to Shadow until the Kat Gear have the cost CHANGED, mainly because if so Bombastic would be a almost black kat for Bombs... and that's kinda reductive, but not necessarily bad in this case. With all that being Said. THE REAL PROBLEM is The whicked wiskers as Bopp remaked.

Wed, 07/22/2026 - 09:11

Holy-Nightmare

@Jcyrano

Bombs don't need to do everything in the game but a few quality of life changes would go a long way.... making it so bombs can break Minerals in one shot along with those Stone blocks would save a lot of players from having to wait...

You can say just use Dark Retribution but you might not always have it or bring it.... what are you going to do? Bring the Dark Retribution to a Graveyard for that chance you run into the spot where they put a 3x4 of Stone blocks in your path?

Wed, 07/22/2026 - 17:14

Life-On-Evil

I would like to point out

I would like to point out that I wasted
my whicked wiskers to craft the bomb set... I regret it

Wed, 07/22/2026 - 18:23

Jcyrano

You are right about it

@Holy I agree with You on that Totally!! those are lovely Buffs.. QoL buffs would be so Good!
Another option is add a not charged attack to the bombs...a melee 'whack in the face of the enemies' that deals a token amount of damage, some push back! and helps breaking blocks...!(please don't let them read this, don't let them do this... please Don't)

@Life-On-Evil No, why? You need the perk on Damage and a CTR and Damage Trinket (not sure if worth it)... to get all as high as posible (if You want that, in some cases not necessary)... but is not worth it, The Bomber Gears are Balance towards eachother, But the BK and Chaos are somewhat outliers and stomp the Bombers Set out of usefullness...
perhaps if buffs where to happen to bombs, that set would be a lot better, but again is not a set if You go for "I neEd MaX oN evEryThiNg!!"... is about doing effective(not max) damage while preventing You from getting frozen in place.

Wed, 07/22/2026 - 22:13

#10

Scuttlechan

What could have been

Would be nice if ASI wasn't such a dead stat on bomber, why not just make it decrease the fuse time on bombs? It could probably help chaining more effectively or be more accurate with positioning and less dependant on enemy movement.
And if it's not your thing but still would want a bit more speed you just adjust how much ASI you need depending on your playstyle.

At least for myself, which I went for a more supportive role, I'd like to be able to explode status bombs faster so I can catch as many mobs possible, especially with fast mobs like those dreaded greavers or stun annoying ones like the devilites.

Thu, 07/23/2026 - 05:15

#11

Bopp

unpopular

why not just make it decrease the fuse time on bombs?

This idea has been proposed many times. It is not popular. Fuse time interacts subtly with monster behavior. A long fuse time lets you inflict damage where you no longer are. It's possible that decreased fuse time would help in some situations, but it would hurt in many situations.

A better (maybe) idea is to let ASI be extra CTR on bombs. Just a little. Instantaneous charging would be bad.

Thu, 07/23/2026 - 10:08

#12

Jcyrano

"...Not necessarily by trying

"...Not necessarily by trying to make Bomber gear behave like Fencer nor Gunners or caring for what stats those sets want."

I agree that ASI is a dead stat on bombs, a lot of RPG games have clases or weapon type for which there are dead stats... That is not bad, because reduce the pression of having to have every possible stat maxed, and allow You to focus on a couple You want to have. (if that ws the Idea Devs went for, I don't know)
CTR IS the stat You want for bombs, having ASI Max affect Your sword but Not your bomb, so going for it means that You focus on Sword Fighting while supporting Yourself with Bombs... means You wasted resources on ASI? the good part is that You can have specific buffing stats on the specific weapon, and that's good design.

And Bopp is right, the timer of bombs is something You learn to play with and to use at Your advance. ASI contributing to CTR could be a math nightmare to solve... if The Devs can pull it sure. But I Dont know and I really don't look that stat and think: 'ohh, I want it too'.

This is a theoretical example of what stats orders a player Could want, players obviously change those and games adjust to gameplay patterns.
Fencers Stats
Damage>MSI>ASI>CTR (obviously different swords want different orders..)
Gunners Stats
Damage>ASI>CTR>MSI (obviously different guns want different orders...)
Bombers
CTR>Damage>MSI>ASI (obviously different Bombs want different orders...)
P.S.: the CTR being before Damage in Bombs is because the way staus bombs work and how CTR math work( Zeddy explains that in another post)

Thu, 07/23/2026 - 12:08

#13

Holy-Nightmare

@Bopp As much as fuse time IS

@Bopp

As much as fuse time IS connected to monster behavior there's also some cases where faster or longer fuse times might be appreciated

Bombs like the BAB might enjoy being as spammable as the Nitronome
Or you could use ASD on a Plate set to be able to place a Vortex bomb or something further from the party button and give yourself more time to walk back

And it's not like you couldn't just run a set without ASI... after all there's only 3 items with universal ASI (Fallen set and SSB)

Thu, 07/23/2026 - 12:25

#14

Jcyrano

or you could use ASD on a

"Or you could use ASD on a Plate set to be able to place a Vortex bomb or something further from the party button and give yourself more time to walk back..."
At that point MSI is better By a lot.

Thu, 07/23/2026 - 19:01

#15

Holy-Nightmare

True, but at the moment I'm

True, but at the moment I'm just looking at this through the lens of "Potential new ways to play the game"

Fri, 07/24/2026 - 07:23

#16

Jcyrano

Agree

That's a good observation... but we can also keep the Stats 'weight'/order in mind; Asking a player to have Ultr or Max in every stat is Obnoxious... asking For:
1 Max, 2 ultra-Very High, 1 Very high-Medium or
1 Max, 1 ultra-Very High, 2 Very high-Medium or
2 Ultra, 2 Very high-Medium, 1 Medioum-Low or
that kind of combination depending on what weapon are You using what other weapons You pair it with gives the player certain room to improve while also not pressing it into a Grind machine for UVs...
The thing is... Can this game support said Stats 'weighting' without making the player loose it's mind, and making it feel good while playing?

Fri, 07/24/2026 - 10:54

#17

Holy-Nightmare

As I've been playing with

As I've been playing with bombs a lot lately, I could arguably say that no ASI might be the best option for most cases but learning the timing of different fuse lengths thanks to ASI could be fun

ATM a lot of bombs are made to be placed as fast as they are charged... but regardless of the ASI your attack speed wouldn't really change.... you're still charging and planting at the same speed... so the bomb blasts are spaced the exact same regardless of the fuse time

I still wouldn't mind having the ability to speed up fuses since in some cases it really feels like I'm having to chase enemies that are aggro'd on my team while they backpedal away from the monster and me.... if I could plant a bomb and have it go off faster I could help get some damage in to help more easily

Fri, 07/24/2026 - 15:05

#18

Jcyrano

The problem with 'helping'

The problem with 'helping' with more damage is not the timer, is the excesive amount of damage A BlitzNeedle dish out... There is no 'I contribute' when a DBB deals 300 damage while a Blitzneedle deal 4k. Mathematically is a lost cause.
If You want the aggro go for status, Poison, fire, shock, stun, Freeze, they all drawn aggro regardless of distance. Sleep resets it, Carefull there...

I still don't like ASI on Bombs... it would be another: "You need this stats otherwise You are not maximizing Your DPS for the Elevated Class Speedrun" cheap propaganda. I know You Don't have that intention, but It can be exploited thru, so remove the option and prevent player exploitation.

Consider the particular case of Electron Vortex... needing one UV the prices is in some cases Prohibitive high, How much Worse Would it get if now needs 2, and don't answer with: "I already have it, so I'm k"

If the only real option for a player to have Ultra or Max in EVERY stat there is no option, there is only Obnoxious...

Fri, 07/24/2026 - 18:40

#19

Life-On-Evil

Yeah, I think that's the main

Yeah, I think that's the main issue. Bombs already have plenty of downsides: charge time, fuse time, positioning, and enemies can just walk away.

At that point, I don't think utility is the problem anymore. The damage gap is just way too big.

Sat, 07/25/2026 - 09:39

#20

Jcyrano

The same downside than other

The same downside than other weapons: charge time, attacks speed/fuse time, positioning, and enemies can just walk away.

charge time -> Charge time
fuse time -> this is times between attacks same happens with Swords and Guns, You have dead time, ASI reduce some of them... and is mechanicly exploited in others (shield switching)
positioning -> positioning
and enemies can just walk away. -> and enemies can just walk away, most complain with Blitznneedle is that fiends mostly dodge the shots(ohh the calamity...).

Yes since Bombs don't have normal attacks, Charge time is notorious on Bombs, some pleople don't use normal attacks on other weapons lines.
The problem with fuse time is long known, but also There was a player "Mr honed skills" complaining because the bombs Fuse time was too short... and that should be increased and areas reduced, because he lost agaisnt bombs on PvP; Was that Ridiculous? Yes, Laughable? Also Yes... Would ASI made that worst? Also Also Yes.
Positioning is King for weapons, King and Queen for Bombs... and that's not bad, should IT be more rewarding though? on that We agree. "ATM a lot of bombs are made to be placed as fast as they are charged... but regardless of the ASI your attack speed wouldn't really change.... you're still charging and planting at the same speed... so the bomb blasts are spaced the exact same regardless of the fuse time" Indeed not the most fun gameplay I agree with You, but Even making Some bombs more intense, some should be chill.. Again more rewarding for Sure!
Enemies walking aways is Enemies being enemies that's good, makes You check what are You going to bring into the fight... unless You just Spam Blitzneedle charge attacks at point blank, then You're good.

We easily overlooked those problem on other weapons because... Damage wich leads into...

"The damage gap is just way too big." <-This is the statement we need fixed. Is real, is direct and a PROBLEM expresed simply... thanks for that.
P.S.:Somedays looks like the original developers made bombs, just to make 3rd weapon line...

Sat, 07/25/2026 - 12:00

#21

Holy-Nightmare

IDK about having ASI as a

IDK about having ASI as a potential UV on bombs, but I also know some people would complain if it wasn't added

Bombs generally just need some kind of attention and love given to them and I've got a few ideas on how to fix it...

The ability to break Stone blocks and minerals with one blast, overall more damage, more levels focused on bomb viable situations with actual payout (looking at you compounds), testing out how players would enjoy Bombs with 0 knockback, testing to see how viable dual status bombs could be, etc

Comparing damage to the Blitz needle isn't really fair and TBH there's soooo many weapons that pale in comparison to the Blitz, at the same time I don't think it's a good idea to make monsters balanced around Blitz DPS, nor is it a good idea to make weapons balanced around it either... you can end up with a situation where Blitz is your only reliable option for killing things fast enough or things get killed too fast.... Or if you did both it would effectively nerf the Blitz because the reward for managing it's downsides is about the same as various other weapons without those downsides

yada yada yada...

But back to the point of this thread.... yeah... generally Bombers just need more options for their armor sets

Sun, 07/26/2026 - 08:03

#22

Jcyrano

"IDK about having ASI as a potential UV on bombs, but I also know some people would complain if it wasn't added" So the pool of UV get more diluted ant the price of CTR Med+ on them gets higher... I do not 'fancy' about it. Some poeple Will definitely want that... Because "player driven market" a.k.a. I need another excuse to rip off other players for pixel coins I mean crowns...

"...testing out how players would enjoy Bombs with 0 knockback..." we know this...DBB
"...testing to see how viable dual status bombs could be..." Give me Poison-Shock and Fire-Stun mist-bombs... and I'll Show You: 'Render a level useless not even a 3rd weapon slot needed'.

"...Or if you did both it would effectively nerf the Blitz because the reward for managing it's downsides is about the same as various other weapons without those downsides..." What downsides? It doesn't have... lets not Justify 4k of damage with "Difficult to use..." and "have downsides" when Doesn't... Does the invinciticks where aded to the Blitzneedle, if Shards got them, Blitz also Right?... unless Blitz was overpowered from the beggining because was the lead designer favourite weapon a "spread Damage Charge attack weapon that You can use Point blank"... That particular Bozo made the Acheron the atrocity that is to balance, ask Zeddy's two pennies about the dual damage weapon balance... and I will compare it to blitzneedle until they "fix it" a.k.a Remove the radial damage, flinch... what else did it had? are those the downsides? You were speaking?

"generally Bombers just need more options for their armor sets" No... Look the sets, You have everything at disposition (Minus the prohibitive Cost of Hiss Raiment, which sparked this argument, Ask Life how he feels about the cost... I think it was already Said)... What More? Do We need a Second Gunners pletora Disaster? That excact thing is what I want to avoid...

Sun, 07/26/2026 - 13:26

#23

Holy-Nightmare

Personally I wouldn't want

Personally I wouldn't want ASI in the bomb UV pool, just something you can benefit from if wearing other items that affects ASI

DBB is a really nice weapon, but I'd personally like to see how the community would react to stuff like Nitronome and Shards no longer having knockback... if Knockback didn't exist on bombs would it help their damage output more or would it be giving up some sort of niche that radial knockback provides?

Dual status bombs would probably be on something that's got a sacrifice of some sort already.... BAB with Stun/Fire wouldn't be that bad, Haze on the other hand would be way too good with dual status...

Blitz argument comes down to how fast do you think a weapon should be able KO something on average... Bombs are definitely on the lower end of the scale, but Blitz is so far up there it really makes you wonder what's going on... ATM if Blitz did get some sort of nerf you'd have to dish out some nerfs to various monsters scaled around it's damage output such as Vanaduke because no one wants to spend 15 minutes peppering him with other guns till he eventually dies

I'm not necessarily talking about Gunner Update armors in regards to this... more along the lines of the initial Gunner armor lines... which sport resists to all 4 damage types as well as a second set for shadow resist... even Wolver armor lines have all the types if not behind a slightly more restrictive method than the Origin Gunner sets requiring a Shadow lair dive or two...

No... the Gunner Update was a good lesson and I hope GH keeps it in mind if they decide to flesh out the other armors... for Demo sets you've already got 3 easy to reach Elemental sets, 1 easy to reach Pierce set, 1 Elemental set behind a fairly difficult Shadow lair but available year round....

And then there's the Hiss set which is severely limited in when you can get resources for it... if anything like I mentioned it may simply be faster to run a Valkyrie and Deadshot set with some Bomb Charge trinkets which are arguably easier to get

Like the Sloom Update and the armors around it, hopefully we can get a Shadow resist bomber set, and perhaps even a more accessible Wolver line for Shadow resist too

Sun, 07/26/2026 - 14:29

#24

Bopp

knockback and DPS

I wouldn't want Nitronome to be stripped of its knockback. Knockback is one of the more interesting ways to differentiate weapons. It interacts subtly with monster AIs. And Nitronome's knockback is specifically useful in some places; I'm thinking of the Unknown Passage final battle.

Dark Briar Barrage is highly effective against crowds of beasts and fiends. It delivers pretty big damage per second while being much safer (or easier to be safe, anyway) than Blitz Needle.

Sun, 07/26/2026 - 16:20

#25

Jcyrano

I agree with Bopp But

"BAB with Stun/Fire wouldn't be that bad" So... Celestial vortex 2.0?
"Haze on the other hand would be way too good with dual status..." So 4k damage in area and flinching is ok, but dual Haze is too much? COWARD!! XD (It would be way too cool...)

However "Shards no longer having knockback" on the outer ring... Could be Really Good, c'mon Bopp You know this would work amazing...

at this point IS "simply be faster to run a Valkyrie and Deadshot set with some Bomb Charge trinkets which are arguably easier to get" as sad as that is... is true accounting for the trinkets even.

This, wee need more like this ->"... the Sloom Update and the armors around it, hopefully we can get a Shadow resist bomber set, and perhaps even a more accessible Wolver line for Shadow resist too" Not even bringing new Things, but checking and re-touching things on specific "themes" That Would be great! checking what there is and rebalancing on small patches like that would be great! Easily digested, simple to test...

"Blitz argument comes down to how fast do you think a weapon should be able KO something on average... Bombs are definitely on the lower end of the scale, but Blitz is so far up there it really makes you wonder what's going on... ATM if Blitz did get some sort of nerf you'd have to dish out some nerfs to various monsters scaled around it's damage output such as Vanaduke because no one wants to spend 15 minutes peppering him with other guns till he eventually dies" This proves 2 things the 'Speedruning' meta and the disparity of damage options, which isn't healthy Speedrunning is not playing THE game is playing parts of it, which is not bad (in a vacuum), but the Update on Bombs Cannot be for parts of the game... most be for the entire game and new and old players and that includes checking the state of Blitzneedle We must agree that need to be changed (not alone, vanaduke aswell for example, as You stated)

Sun, 07/26/2026 - 16:42

#26

Bopp

yep

However "Shards no longer having knockback" on the outer ring... Could be Really Good

Yep, the knockback on the shard bombs is really difficult to use. Maybe a fan of the shard bombs will chime in, and tell us why the design makes sense as it is.

Sun, 07/26/2026 - 18:13

#27

Dibsville

But nobody came.

Why do shard bombs have a regular charge time, a regular fuse time, then explode into a second bomb with a second fuse time? And this second bomb is where all the damage is, so you're telling me to space it like Dark Retribution, except if it had a 5 second fuse time and required some geometric planning to get 3 shard explosions on target to do slightly more damage than a blast bomb?

Bombastic Demo going to shadow would be fine for expanding bomber's shadow options so I think this would be cool. While we're on the topic, Mad Bomber should go to piercing defense, both to differentiate it from Chaos and so that all three defenses have a glass cannon armor.

Mon, 07/27/2026 - 09:35

#28

Jcyrano

I think they Left long ago Bopp

I think they Left long ago Bopp, We are here, We will have to do... WE need to DO.

@Dibsville please allow me to complete the sentence: "Why do shard bombs have a regular charge time, a regular fuse time, then explode into a second bomb with a second fuse time? And this second bomb is where all the damage is, so you're telling me to space it like Dark Retribution, except if it had a 5 second fuse time and required some geometric planning to get 3 shard explosions on target to do slightly more damage than a blast bomb?" if and only IF You don't get invinciticks. A 'Genius' Design from the Orininal Devs... (I'm not being sarcastic on the 'Genius' I promise...)
'Allegedly' Invinciticks where removed... 'Allegedly'. Though that doesn't solve the 3 hours wait (5 seconds), so You have to preventively spam bombs making an absolute 'Knightmare' to everyone in the group to know where will be what.. all that for a miserable amount of damage

I'm not sure about Mad Bomber having to go Piercing, Chaos Buff was a mistake, should have been ASI: Low on each part Mad Bombers set is the obvious one because of Similarities To chaos, but perhaps the change you point helps the player base to diversify gear... There are some players that have only 2 sets, Can You blame them? No... Should we throw more sets into the game? Also NO. Gunslinger Sash Entire line became obsolete when the buff to Chaos happen, and the 'fix' was the Gunners Update!.. Another 'Genius' design (I'm totally not being sarcastic on the 'Genius' I promise... Again) by the original Devs; Wich proves the unsurmountable task this team has... Unravel the "Trust me Broh" Code, otherwise there is no reason for the patch notes not having a single Digit of Information, just vibes... and undo the LAME Updates into a normal state. And then start again. Re-checking whats needed... the problem clear to me IS the disparity of damage between the 3 weapons branches... adding Assault to the Insult, the price/material needed of the Weapon specific Kat Raiments... and the fact that 2 sets are overwhelmingly obnoxious and no one whats to adress that particular problem... and try to mascarade it "as Buff the others sets" when those same players don't even know what sets exist...

ASI as a 'Enviromental' buff: Charge attacks don't benefit from ASI, the fliying swords of the divine evenger doesn't travel faster because You have more ASI, the Brandish explosions doesn't explode faster because You have ASI, the Pulsar 'bombs' don't fly faster because ASI... ASI helps with 'dead time' between attacks...MSI helps along the invincibility to reposition out thru dangers... Shield swapping, etc... those are obscure mechanics that players use to "feel" the game better... Nothing agaisnt that. But We canot design around obscurity nor obscure designs... that being said. If bombs had a 'normal' attack...a melee 'whack in the face of the enemies' that deals a token amount of damage, some push back! and helps breaking blocks... ASI would have a place in bombs... also not Ideal, but would have a place. Not the case, so ASI does not apply.

Alternative:
Damage in Installments...
what if the Damage from the bombs where done in 3(number subject to change) installments (in some cases).
Example: Irontech Destroyer
Reduce Charge time .33 seconds (2.2 seconds -> 1.87 seconds)
Reduce Fuse time .33 seconds (3 seconds -> 2.77 seconds)
Reduce Damage .50
Explosion: deals damage every 0.3 seconds for a total of 3 times... Yes, 50% more damage total and a some more chance of stun.
Timeline:
Now |-----Charge----||----Fuse-----||Damage:260 + % stun + knockback|
New |---Charge---||---Fuse---||Damage:130 + % stun||Damage:130 + % stun||Damage:130 + % stun + knockback|

Example: Ash of Agni
Reduce Charge time .33 seconds (3.18 seconds -> 2.85 seconds)
Reduce Fuse time .33 seconds (2 seconds -> 1.77 seconds)
Reduce Damage .50
Explosion: deals damage every 0.3 seconds for a total of 3 times... Yes, 50% more damage total.
Timeline:
Now |-----Charge----||----Fuse-----||Damage:266||--Mist:5 seconds + % fire--|
New |---Charge---||---Fuse---||Damage:133||Damage:133||Damage:133|
- & - |-------------------------------------------------||--Mist:5 seconds + % fire--|

Example: Celestial Vortex (this is different)
Reduce Damage .50
Deals damage during the Drag, so breaking blocks and minerals is easy and status appliance is fair more consistent.
Timeline:
Now |-----Charge----||----Fuse-----||Damage:5||--------Drag:4 seconds--------||Damage:266 + % fire + knockback|

New |-----Charge----||----Fuse-----||Damage:133||--------Drag:4 seconds--------||Damage:133 + knockback|
- & - |-------------------------------------------------------||Damage:44 per sec + % fire||-----------------------------------|

Would this fix anything... I Don't Know... would be fun... maybe? also since some explosions are so visually loud! you don't have to change a thing about them... and they still look 'timed'...
Can this be applied to Shards... I don't know maybe?

Mon, 07/27/2026 - 18:41

#29

Holy-Nightmare

(I got jobs lol)

As someone who used shards a lot, I can honestly say the best one was the Shocking Salt Bomb and I think part of that is simply because Shock negates knockback... so honestly the entire line would be best without knockback... the most viable I've ever seen the others is when you're having a silly party and everyone is spamming shards.... then you can cover more ground with damage and you can so fairly solid because of the higher DPS

You could keep Knockback on some bombs but arguably one reason why people don't like the play with bombers is because that very knockback ruins most of the current playstyle... holding a chokepoint with knockback is much less of a common occurrence than people wanting predictable enemy movement to fully use their charge attacks... removing knockback from at least a portion of bombs like the Shards would at least give Bombers a better way to deal damage without having to stick with just 2 bombs

New armors would be nice but I also agree that reworking old ones is probably easiest... I'd argue specialist sets probably could do fine with some Low boosts added to them since Universal boosts to weapons are arguably more valuable than Monster specific boosts... Valkyrie set with Bomb CTR Med wouldn't be much but it would be at least a workable choice

If we're going to talk about Mad Bomber then yeah, something should be done about it and Chaos's relationship... differentiate them somehow because simply turning Mad Bomber into Chaos for the low low cost of a weakness to the rarest status in the game isn't really fair.... Beyond that Chaos is also Dusky Themed... seems a bit weird to bring up but consider this... Mad Bomber is "Rusty Themed" (according to the Wiki).... Rusty has NOTHING for Cosmetics outside of 6 pieces for helm/armor... and 0 accessories.... Not saying making some Rusty accessories would be a real buff to Mad Bomber, but even cosmetically there's little reason to try to build something with it

Tue, 07/28/2026 - 08:42

#30

Jcyrano

Bombs: Knockback on some,

Bombs: Knockback on some, Knockdown on a few, and Nothing on others? with that bombs would have Identity... and fair more relevancy?

"New armors would be nice but I also agree that reworking old ones is probably easiest..." again I agree, but not the gunners pletora of disaster... and certainly not a "look the new: Nitronome in all 4 colours of the Cryinbow update... Now with more Valiance!..."
"...Universal boosts to weapons are arguably more valuable than Monster specific boosts..." Yes vanaduke is not affected by Bonus Damage: Fiends High, but IS affected by Bonus Damage: High, thats a fairly what 98% of the gameplay and gear people goes for... or is 'suggested'(cough* pushed into), obviously is going to be more 'desired'.

"Rusty has NOTHING for Cosmetics" Bumper stickers for the armour are not going to fix the problem; Chaos rendered useless more sets than Mad Bomber... and thanks to the 'Pletora disaster of Gunners Update', if You go 3 stats Chaos, CTR-DAMAGE-ASI: Low... You would be turning the (new)Gunners sets useless... Thank to the OG DEVs 'Genius' design (I'm not being sarcastic on the 'Genius' I promise...)

Tue, 07/28/2026 - 13:12

#31

Holy-Nightmare

Overall I'd honestly be more

Overall I'd honestly be more for just having new bombs added to the game... not just damage types for some but more like new formats to play with... Most fit into the groups of Blast, Shard, Vortex, or Haze.... with Dark Retribution being the only REAL odd one out... meanwhile guns have like 10 styles, and swords have like 9

When it comes to armor reworks it's mostly like in the OP where Bombastic gets shadow defense, or how I'm thinking the specialist sets end up with different weapon boosts on them so you end up with something similar to the Heavenly Iron set

Pointing out the lack of Rusty cosmetics is just one other thing that the Mad Bomber has going against it, which while minor is something that should be much easier to address than balancing the Chaos set which would throw the community up in arms that their precious glass cannon set has lost some of it's oomph

Wed, 07/29/2026 - 14:03

#32

Jcyrano

Yes more bombs, But

Yes more bombs, But interesting, not just a re-color. "...Dark Retribution being the only REAL odd one out..." is a great thing We need that kind of 'out of the box thinking' for bombs, NOT re-coloring a Nitronome 'Elemental' green. And I cannot stress this enough: NOT a 'Thorny Retaliation' a.k.a. Dark Retribution but blonde... I mean Piercing...

Heavenly Iron set is really good example of a Specialist set, But is meaningless if 'Glass Cannon' is Not Glass while also being Nuclear Device.
So while at it "Pointing out the lack of Rusty cosmetics is just one other thing that the Mad Bomber has going against it, which while minor is something that should be much easier to address than balancing the Chaos set which would throw the community up in arms that their precious glass cannon set has lost some of it's oomph" Yes is easy, as easy as making Promo-boxes instead of Fixing the balance or the Forge, or the lag... Promo where easy... what 13 years of 'Go Easy'? We need real things, they have started, not addressing the 2 overwhelmingly oppressive sets would be stopping half way Nowhere.

Wed, 07/29/2026 - 17:14

#33

Holy-Nightmare

As much as you might not like

As much as you might not like it I do think that we need more variants of existing bombs if we aren't going to get more playstyles to pick from...

Blast bombs are just... Normal, slow Normal with stun, slower normal with stun, normal with a construct boost and ends at 4 star, and that one that's pierce damage and technically a blast bomb

Shard bombs have every damage you could want and even some specialist variants, but the damage is lacking if you aren't in a bomber squad where you can carpet the floor

Haze bombs only have Elemental but they don't really need anything else since they deal every status short of Curse

Vortex aren't even used for damage so more options on them wouldn't help at all

I would agree that Blasters really didn't need the entire type list available especially when even before the Gunner update you had tons of options, but it's harder to say that about Blast bombs since their entire job isn't to be a sidearm but to be AOE damage... with just pure normal on most of the damage options it's really just AOE knockback with some damage on the side

People's biggest complaint with the Blast bomb style is that it is likely to get allies hit, and why is that? It's because they aren't dealing enough damage to flinch enemies so it just flings them into allies

With bombs having about half as many playstyles as the rest of the weapon groups it seems like a bad idea to further restrict which damage types they can build up into

If GH isn't going to double the number of bomb weapon lines any time soon, then giving more damage types to the Blast bomb line should be more than fine

---------------

Glass cannon armors do need to be addressed, IMO I think that any armor that's a specialist at monster damage or weapon damage should rule supreme in that area. Glass cannon armors should be the generally best when considering what single armor to get, but never outdoing the ones who's job it is... "Jack of All trades, Master of None"... if Skolver is Sword damage VH then Chaos and BK shouldn't eclipse it

And if people don't want Chaos and BK nerfed then the other option is to buff the other sets to perform even better once they reach 5 star

Thu, 07/30/2026 - 08:28

#34

Jcyrano

Yes and all those

Yes and all those varianst/reskins should be on a 0.004% promo box... each! (yes i'm being sarcastic, no that's not how bombs need to be fixed, that is more of the same. and that doesn't help, at all)

"Skolver is Sword damage VH then Chaos and BK shouldn't eclipse it" You said it and then inmediately retracted "And if people don't want Chaos and BK nerfed then the other option is to buff the other sets to perform even better once they reach 5 star"
"And if people don't want Chaos and BK nerfed then" there si no other option You said it Yourself... You can try to go down the rabbit hole of 'We increase family tipes damage to +24...' wont work..already discussed powercreep to not address the problem. Nerf those sets they will still be strong because of what they offer... Lets be honest those 2 sets where used so people only make those and don't bother for the state of the REST of the game while are being sold a box with a chance for 'Bumperstickers' and that specific thing... That has to end. and you have to start exactly where they started... Chaos and Black Kat... I said it before, i'll keep saying it the problem clear to me IS the disparity of damage between the 3 weapons branches... adding Assault to the Insult, the price/material needed of the Weapon specific Kat Raiments... and the fact that 2 sets are overwhelmingly obnoxious and no one whats to adress that particular problem...

Thu, 07/30/2026 - 20:22

#35

Holy-Nightmare

I'm just putting forth two

I'm just putting forth two possible paths on how to nerf BK/Chaos... you can either bring them down, or elevate everything else

End result would still be the same though...

Personally I think BK was most fun when it was just the helmet... you were forced to mix sets and use your sprite perks to get your damage further up, Even with Chaos in it's current state if you put BK with the Cloak you'd even further weaken your defenses, and it played alongside the Seerus Mask who people used for it's strong status resists on top of it's nice perks.... making BK a complete set eliminated that passively forced glass cannon set building

Fri, 07/31/2026 - 07:43

#36

Jcyrano

Agree

It would be the same, the power creep Entirelly different! "elevate" sounds like Marketing trying to sell me something in this case Promo boxes...

"Personally I think BK was most fun when it was just the helmet." Agree, but The Devs of such years wanted to exploit a little bit more* the playerbase

"...making BK a complete set eliminated that passively forced glass cannon set building" Just changed the Enforced Set, they didn't eliminate it, They Just changed it into one with a Lot more "Grind" a.k.a. Artificially extended playtime, so You are distracted and buy more Promo Boxes...

*a LOT MORE

Fri, 07/31/2026 - 19:46

#37

Holy-Nightmare

Elevating other sets is

Elevating other sets is mostly like trying to grant them extra boosts for being 5 star rather than just a linear boost, you can also get a little extra on the side...

Starlit Demo is a good example since it also grants a boost to Slimes in exchange for a Stun Weakness

I think other sets could follow this example a bit more, and perhaps go for a stronger boost as well

Starlit Demo for example I think should also get a boost against Beast just to further cement it as the Demo set to deal with pierce damage enemies, Skolver can get a Fire weakness in exchange for something like Med Sword CTR, Vog Cub a Freeze weakness for Med Gun CTR, and Snarb for Med Bomb CTR, and Starlit Hunting set didn't get anything in exchange for it's Stun Weakness so give it something like Med MSI

I could go on but having more armors do more things and having them bleed a little into other categories would allow for you to use other sets to fulfill a different purpose... Even if stuff like Deadshot, Valkyrie, or Shadowsun aren't dedicated bombing sets, giving them even a Medium Bomb CTR would let players have access to a set or two to bomb in while also encouraging players to mix up their loadouts. ATM if you pick a set you kinda have to use it just for that one job.... you can use other weapons but they'll be unboosted. This is part of why Chaos and BK are popular, they don't lock you into using one style of weapon and they still have respectable defenses. Meanwhile for other sets you mix classes in you often end up with just a Medium boost and lowered status resists.

Sat, 08/01/2026 - 07:51

#38

Bopp

hybrid sets

Hybrid-offense (e.g. handgun and bomb abilities) sets are an interesting idea, that I've never seen proposed before. But how might they be substantially different from combining a gunner helmet and a bomber suit, say?

I do think that Black Kat and Chaos could have their defenses further nerfed. For example, they could give less health than other armors. And players wouldn't complain much, because these armors are already glass cannon, and players take pride in not needing defense.

Sat, 08/01/2026 - 09:04

#39

Jcyrano

You are right about it

But You are mixing things horribly:
"Starlit Demo is a good example since it also grants a boost to Slimes in exchange for a Stun Weakness"
So gives a Weapon specific and a Family specific, I like that. A Lot.
"Deadshot, Valkyrie, or Shadowsun aren't dedicated bombing sets"
Deadshot: already Does the same, Weapon and Family is a gunner, You want to remove them from Gunner?
Valkyrie: Does Family but not weapon So we add a Weapon? Heavenly Iron Already does that... We pick the same weapon or another...
Shadowsun: Does Weapon. We add a family? The same family Deadshot or a Different? We change the weapon?.

The reason Starlit Works is because You Excel at Bombing Slimes but Hit them hard enough with other Weapons. Not because has 2 Weapons Buffs...
and the reason is: Bombs benefit More from CTR that Damage. But that's not the case for other weapons. What works Here could work in other, but Not turn them into a Vichyssoise. Hybrid-offense Could Work as well as having a Weapon Specific and Family Specific... But having Dual Weapons that is exactly the same as Wearing Vog Cub Coat and Seerus Mask... for example!

"ATM if you pick a set you kinda have to use it just for that one job.... you can use other weapons but they'll be unboosted. This is part of why Chaos and BK are popular, they don't lock you into using one style of weapon and they still have respectable defenses. Meanwhile for other sets you mix classes in you often end up with just a Medium boost and lowered status resists." So You are back tracking Again on "Skolver is Sword damage VH then Chaos and BK shouldn't eclipse it"

Sat, 08/01/2026 - 20:20

#40

Life-On-Evil

Shard bombs

Shard bomb needs 3 things: no knockback on the 2nd explosion, shorter fuse on that 2nd part, and a damage buff.

Knockback on the 2nd hit sucks to play around and it screws your teammates' combos too. Half the reason people dodge grouping with bombers. Killing it makes shard way less annoying and actually party friendly.

Shorter fuse just cuts the dead air between hits.

Damage buff isn't a "nice to have" though. I use shard a ton and even vs elemental-weak stuff (crit dmg and all) it's still a 15s cycle vs DBB's 10s. Shard should straight up beat DBB there, not lose to it. A specialist bomb losing to the generalist bomb in its own best matchup makes zero sense.

Sat, 08/01/2026 - 21:56

#41

Holy-Nightmare

The current issue with mixing

The current issue with mixing sets is that you'll often be more vulnerable to status and damage, sure you may get some mixed offense options, but you'll also suffer when taking hits, and you still won't have that Very High boost from running both parts of the same set... instead you'll just get a Medium and Medium, my aim is to make it a Very High along with a Medium of something else.

Starlit Demo already gives a boost to Slime damage, I'd like to see it extended to Beast as well

As for the rest I'm more or less spitballing ideas, having multiple weapon boosts on something should be interesting especially if they're not the same class of weapon but rather something that helps encourage it's own playstyle

Deadshot with added bomb CTR should be pretty good... Give it an Ash of Agni and an Argent peacemaker and you can set Zombies on fire while using your gun to pick apart the weakened ones left

Weapon class and monster specialist armors can still have their strongest perk fit that class, but having something different on the side would encourage you to mix up your set.... and even if they have to take a status weakness in exchange for this, I don't think their existing viability would change that much

Sun, 08/02/2026 - 10:13

#42

Jcyrano

Life-On-Evil: I agree, the

Life-On-Evil: I agree, the Damage buff is nice but the other changes need to happen, otherwise the %increase in damage is useless. Bombing is hard...

Holy: So your mixing is this stats layout?
like the one I said but yours is Max on swords ultra on guns, very high on bombs? cool... except that doesn't help with people thinking they have to max out on every stat: "Otherwise You are wasting time get a Black kat". You can use a sword as a second option and Focus on Guns and is OK, You don't need Sword Very High because Your 4º weapon is a Gran Faust. Gear mixing or Not.
And if You are Sword medium/Gun medium instead of Gun Very high... Congratulation You are a Generalist You shouldn't get better stats than a Specialist: the gunner.

Stats interest. (again as an example)

Fencers Stats
Damage>MSI>ASI>CTR (obviously different swords want different orders..)

Gunners Stats
Damage>ASI>CTR>MSI (obviously different guns want different orders...)

Bombers
CTR>Damage>MSI>ASI (obviously different Bombs want different orders...)

P.S.: the CTR being before Damage in Bombs is because the way staus bombs work and how CTR math work( Zeddy explains that in another post)
(Zeddy explains that in another post)

The advantage is Damage (per family), ASI and CTR can be leaned into weapon UVs... Should Damage families be condensed into Just Damage? perhaps.
So Guns and Swords are easy to pair if you have general damage (Chaos/BK issue) and General ASI... Swiftstrike Buckler ummm, are we seing a pattern here?
Bombs can also if we lean on General CTR (Chaos... ups!, sounds like a recurrent problem) or UVs...

Zeddy/Bopp explain in that in other post why Generalist Damage and ASI beats Specialist builds. SO all cute about buff other things... there is no need to buff anything when You pidgeon hole everyone into the same Gear by Designing the conditions and exploiting the "I must get every stat as high as posible"... Back Kat and Chaos need to be nerfed, Whoever cry, cries a lot. That change needs to happen, then we evaluate the Weapon Stat+family Damage to make sure Specialist gear are one step ahead on specific conditions and Generalist Gear is Stable across the board.

the price/material needed of the Weapon specific Kat Raiments... Still needs to be addressed a.k.a. reduced to 1 whiskers for the 3* star and 0 whiskers in the 4 & 5*. lowering the amount of books needed from 2(given the perfect condition of at least 6 books total in a group of 4 to 8 players) per set to 1 book per set... I think is easy or at least less insulting.

Sun, 08/02/2026 - 12:13

#43

Holy-Nightmare

@Jcyrano

Generally for the mixed stats you'd still keep the set mainly focused on it's intended use... just now with a smaller secondary boost to another weapon or something.

Skolver would still give it's biggest boost to the Sword, but having a small boost like bomb CTR med or gun ASI med (one low boost per piece), would give it a very viable niche in comparison to Chaos or BK since it loosens the restriction on your weapon set some while also carrying a strong damage and status resist compared to their several status debuffs.

I haven't really decided what the new perks for every armor could be, but ATM the main thing I'm looking as it potential bomb CTR on Deadshot and Valkyrie to provide alternate options to the Kat Hiss set just by virtue of accessibility. Even if Bombastic switches to Shadow defense these two will still have potential use because of their unique status resists.

Sun, 08/02/2026 - 16:48

#44

Life-On-Evil

Defense doesn't matter because Last Pip lets damage stay too hig

Everyone here is talking bomber armor balance but honestly that's downstream of a bigger problem: the whole defense system.

Knights can sit at 2 pips all day because Last Pip means you won't get one shot. GH knows this so they tune enemy damage high enough to still threaten people playing on that cushion. High damage across the board makes Defense (a % reduction) worth less in absolute terms. Remove Last Pip, lower overall damage to compensate, and Defense starts mattering again without touching a single armor stat.

This hits bombers hardest too. No dodge mid throw, no strafe like guns, you're planted through the whole arm/throw animation.

Removing Last Pip and lowering damage need to happen together, not separately. One without the other is just a nerf with no payoff.

TL;DR bomber sets are a symptom. The real reason glass cannon gear never feels as risky or rewarding as it should is Last Pip inflating damage across the board. Fix that first and gear balance gets way easier everywhere, not just bombs.

Sun, 08/02/2026 - 19:10

#45

Scuttlechan

Life-On-Evil's got a big point

So long as the 1-pip protection stays in the game the less defense matter outside of status or bonuses (Those are their own can of worms)

Knights can comfortably run T3 even with 3* BK set because you can easily stand up to 7 hits before using a spark (Including health pills/emergency revive), let alone the fact that MSI already puts them at an advantage in being able to dodge what otherwise could be a guaranteed hit or that shields are virtually endless pools of health so long as you maintain them. And Chaos can just use Swift Steps since they already get 4/4 to Damage/CTR, nothing that trinkets or swiftstrike can't cover.

Sure, one can argue that SK is a game that focuses mainly on dodging, but what's the point of having defense stats if damage bloats to the point you get "one-shot" anyway?

Bombers already have hard time having to dodge from either the reduced movement while charging or the animations that already extends their downtime even further regardless of MSI.

Mon, 08/03/2026 - 08:09

#46

Jcyrano

Holy: "Generally for the

Holy: "Generally for the mixed stats you'd still keep the set mainly focused on it's intended use... just now with a smaller secondary boost to another weapon or something." You could use the trinkets for that or the UV... which get us back to the point of: why would You when Chaos/BK exist? I like teh concept that a specialist should be better than a generalist, BUT Doesn't happen because "You have to max everything otherwise You wont farm enought on time for the next Promo-box" syndrome.

Life has a very valid point, the last stand + invulnerability when You get hit doesn't help for "thanks" nor a healthy defense values. Small caveat here: I do not thing that a tank Should be "I just stand here and nothing happen to me" I like Shields for tanking they regen, and can Absorb a lot of damage by 'rotating what knights is taking the hits'... the problem is the 3* allstar... almost no one can shield tank. Therefore the need for the last hitpoint ridiculous damage reduction. Just standing and "tanking" is not interesting. Tanking should be on "short time windows" by using the shield and the armour you have picked... and knowing that You don't need to reduce all the damage types and status possible... a.k.a. Gunners Pletora of dis-servivce. Tanking should be a concious act: "the turrets are throwing a misile barage I stand with an Owlite Shield while my friends are charging their weapons, the next moment the Colonies move past the turrets and spin so my friend gets in-between and takes the hit, because his piercing armour reduce the damage far more than my elemental."

Scuttlechan said something Huge. Everyone is perking MSI, yet the weapon branch that slow You while charging are mostly the bombs, because the autogun line used t do it, now it doesn't...(because clearly the blitzneedle needed another buff).

Mon, 08/03/2026 - 10:26

#47

Holy-Nightmare

The main reason would be for

The main reason would be for the superior status resists which is the main flaw for BK/Chaos set... Supposed Snarbolax set got a bomb Med CTR... with a pet perk and level 10 bomb you can also have max bomb CTR, on top of max sword damage from the Snarb set with it's shield... apply this sort of logic to various other sets and the real main draw of BK/Chaos is just the flexibility

Largely it's also just a more fun concept than just straight nerfs to 2 sets... making players feel powerful regardless of which set they pick should be a design philosophy, even if a set isn't #1 making the player feel like they're growing in power as they progress is good

One big thing I do think should happen to BK though is the MSI being removed, it's arguably the feature that really presses the fully max issue even further because it allows for much easier dodging of attacks but also puts you in a mindset of having to go as fast as possible. Forcing BK to stay with the party they're playing with keeps them from feeling like people who aren't using it are holding them back, and forces them to deal with monsters which are tuned to fight players without MSI...

There's a very clear design when it comes to monsters and their timing, and being able to get MSI VH really messes with it and gives the player a huge defensive advantage... and it honestly shouldn't be on the set with Max universal damage

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Change the Bombastic Demo Suit defense