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We need to seriously address risk & reward, and punishing game design.

4 replies [Last post]
Tue, 07/07/2026 - 23:43
Calinou's picture
Calinou

Hello,

I have had this topic in mind for a long while, and I briefly addressed it in my "all purposes" suggestion post, but I think this topic requires its own in depth post, as I'm of the opinion that the situation at hand is particularly katastrophic (typo intended).

The current running event has exacerbated an issue I have been noticing for a long while now, almost since the very first days of SK; This game does not understand what a "reward" is, and what a good "reward" is for the amount of risk, or investment people put in the game.

I have heard of tales where people just re-run the same missions on repeat for some items, including progression-important ones, and all for said items to be abysmally low in their drop rate. The current event shows this beautifully, as even tho the Kat drops are not necessary to progress, the gear they give access to is often spoken of as some of the best armor(s) in the game, but the road to reach just ONE of these armors is not shy of a punishment. Yes, I would call a lot of this so called "grind" a punishing game loop, as just how waiting is not a game mechanic, repeating the same course of action repeatedly ad nauseam is also not a game mechanic, it is madness. It's what people are pushed to do when the design behind these sequences is so punitive, so demanding in effort or investment, that people's best bet is to turn into machines.

The game stops being a game, the player just mindlessly repeats these strategies in hopes that they may get a minuscule chance to obtain, I repeat, sometimes progression important items! I am aware that a potential upcoming "balance patch" was mentioned earlier this year, and I really hope a lot of these abysmally low drop rates will be addressed, as they contribute to what I called "punitive game design" earlier.

All of the above applies to things as trivial as collecting crowns, given that a lot of items in the game go off for prices that can easily jump up to 50k, 100k, or even near the million crowns marks (knowing that the most rewarding mission known atm: King of Ashes; only rewards between 7.8k and 9.5k crowns per completion)

Another related thing in this game that can be considered punitive, is how the auction house practically operates like a black box, despite a LOT of the items being sold on it having been obtained through real world currency, and there being a limited supply of a considerable, and growing amount of these items.

When such cosmetics are being traded on a platform of this nature, the minimum requirement would be that things like outbidding, common/average per-item pricing, or logs of what has been sold recently wouldn't be either; hidden from players; or an easy to miss memo in a sea of other messages.

As it currently stands, for something like outbidding, the game will near-silently whisper to the player that the extra-rare, knowingly supply limited item they bid all the money they earned after playing for weeks was just snagged by someone else. In such a way that if you aren't manically stuck to your chat box as you play to wait an auction out, you would absolutely miss it until you come back in haven, and potentially realize you just lost an opportunity to get what you wanted.

Another way to obtain items for sure, since the auction house feels free to royally screw you half the time, is trading, however, since the game doesn't keep track of common recent prices for items, players have had to log these prices themselves. Which again, adds to the punitive game design to me, we shouldn't have to do accounting to make sure that the DAYS we spend collecting resources and in game money don't suddenly go poof when some shady trader comes out a bush to sell you things at 500% their common price.

I realize that all of the punitive aspects mentioned so far were probably never envisioned to be this serious at any time during the design phase, but nowadays, they are serious enough that people felt the need to develop quite insane strategies to farm some notoriously painful to obtain things, and that the economy was easy enough to screw people over, that entire leagues of loggers formed to log prices for cosmetics and non-cosmetics alike.

I could continue on and on, but these were my main two examples as of recent times. And the rest of the punitive aspects are often related to how much players need to juice some of the game's unassuming missions to obtain resources, or how they had to organize to avoid getting screwed upon by mechanics that could use some kind of overhaul.

A last honorable mention however; on the "lack of reward" part of this post is that "danger" missions, despite being MORE dangerous than "king of ashes", barely reward anything, if not prestige, the least useful "resource" in the entirely game, and a pitiful 3.6k to 4.5k crowns total. Which is abysmal in my humble opinion.

Wed, 07/08/2026 - 02:40
#1
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

God I got anxiety just reading about the auction house sniping. It's why I've never bothered with the system.

Danger mission payout might have made sense when it was 2 floors and that meant it cost only 20 mist to run it (I believe the final reward floor was free?), but that hasn't been a relevant factor in about 10 years. It needs to scale for clear time, which is unfortunately a task that can only be done by someone who understands the game.

Wed, 07/08/2026 - 04:40
#2
Vyre-Acidlashed's picture
Vyre-Acidlashed
I think I'm about ready to

I think I'm about ready to stop dancing around the point with pretty words and insistent diplomacy - I agree with your post, to be clear, but let's call it what it is.

They're player-abusive dark patterns. Calling them "punishing game mechanics" stances them as being designed around game engagement with a poor understanding of the rationale of play and from a design perspective that just doesn't track. When viewed through the lens of maximising time-in-contact with the VERY LIMITED RANGE of items that are desirable, things start coming into close focus. The game stops being a facilatatory mechanism for play or player expression and instead becomes busywork that a player feels incentivsed to engage with to have a fair shot at *getting any value for their time or money.*

Watching someone pull the lever on the same slot machine repeatedly isn't an expression of play, it's an expression of desperation. If someone's doing Kat Sprints it's because they feel like they have to, running a treadmill for the lucky shot at getting a big crown payout from selling a margrel slot.

The adversarial player economy - as previously pointed out in the original post - only adds to this by leveraging the fear of missing out, and causes yet more players to succumb to design patterns that don't feel like healthy play. Auction sniping or camping out on Haven's main plaza means not playing the game.

I've heard while standing in Haven that some players will set clocks based on how the "time left" indicator changes in order to minimize the actual bidding they have to do, and even though this activity could be "fixed" by adding a small amount of uncertainty to those timings, it doesn't mitigate the inherently adversarial design of an auctionhouse that relies on rare lootbox pulls and crushingly slim grinding sessions to function.

The meagre rewards from missions coupled with the exorbitant asking prices of in-game items and the increasingly spiralling cost of energy all work together to foster an environment where players are overpaying and underbuying. They're getting ripped off for their time or their money or their effort, or all three at once. Calling this "Bad Game Design" is generous at best. This is an expression of predatory monetisation that's spiralling out of control because of outdated and outmoded systems interacting in unpredictable ways, and I am not entirely certain that saying "the playerbase is at fault" is fair any more. This house of cards was always going to come down catastrophically because it incentivises spending first and gameplay second and it's eating at the health of the ***game*** as a ***thing to do*** from the inside.

This system has some wretchedly vicious externalities and I think that there are enough people across every "class" of player now that it's becoming pressingly noticeable.

Incidentally, I've looked at the other post quoted by Calinou and I thoroughly agree with their proposals to reduce the incidence of these grinds and widen the suite of positive experiences a player can have. Let's not pretend as though the gameplay here needs to keep this up - those of us that are still here are here to stay. We already like the game enough that we're still playing it even in this state. Mechanisms that keep us here using anxiety, compulsion or gambling are neither healthy nor compelling - and they're certainly not inviting to new users. A wider range of positive experiences to look forward to that are achievable through play or patience will make for a significantly healthier and more inviting play experience overall - and playercount will likely only go up in the wake of that. "Less stick, more carrot," no?

To be absolutely explicit about this matter for whomever is reading this post or posts like it - This Problem Is Imminently Fixable, but it very closely depends on a candid dialogue about historic monetization patterns and game design ideologies, and it absolutely requires designers being willing to walk back some decisions that will, ultimately, upset some people who are depending exclusively on the sense of satisfaction of having a rare item to continue feeling like "playing the game" is "worth it", because it is a matter of empirical fact that this isn't intrinsic play - it's extrinsic, and that's not a healthy impulse to encourage in a playerbase. PLAYING THE GAME should be worth it.

A pricing overhaul that diminishes this value will almost require refocusing on improving the overall experience to offset the impact of that, and done correctly with careful planning and design, it will HUGELY limit the extent of player retention loss, but it requires developers having faith in their playerbase, and most importantly, it requires them keeping to a philosophy admitted in the steam discussions by Cleaver themselves in the steam discussions page on August 26th. "If it were about the money, we'd've done something else."

We'll pay you for your time and effort. If you meet us not in the middle, but just a tiny bit closer.

Wed, 07/08/2026 - 10:13
#3
Draycos's picture
Draycos

People mindlessly playing the same highest-profit missions because it's their best option is a consequence of the Forge system, the abolishment of the original Mist Energy / elevator cost systems, and a general shift toward time efficiency being the dominant factor over total rewards in a stage. The lack of a cost per-level and the introduction of direct UV rolls with crowns/tickets instead of crafting is more casual, but had some big ripples where levels held afloat by their unique materials relative to the energy cost of running them are now just irrelevant. This combined with Orbs/Firecrystals to drastically constrict the stages worth running if the player wants to progress. When's the last time anyone said anything nice about a Wolver Den besides "at least it's not a Compound"? And yet Dens used to be highly valuable despite their low raw crown/heat payout as their materials were used in Brandishes and Wolver armor.

Danger Missions are a great thing to bring up since as Zeddy mentions, they were initially energy-efficient stages despite taking longer and giving fewer rewards relative to realtime. Additionally, they also dropped loads of 5* Firecrystals before the drop range for them got pushed almost out of range. All of the 4* crystals it's clogged with used to be 5*. Today, we are lucky to get more than six 5* crystals.

You can see Kataclysm in its current state as all of that sifted and refined to a logical conclusion: running past enemies, ignoring stage design, and aggressively restarting the same shortcut-to-Candlestick missions over and over because the drops aren't worth the time it takes for enemies to finish their death and loot-spawning animations even when instakilling them with certain weapons; there is no reason to play other stages when targeting Black Kats and no reason to fully complete the stage either; and it's time-limited so you're incentivized to grind it as hard as possible before it's gone. It's the perfect distillation of everything wrong with SK's reward structure and the manipulations intrinsic to its monetization.

Supposedly they're doing some database migration in the background. It'd be cool if that extended to significantly expanding the capabilities of the Auction House, like more permanent listing options without fees so players didn't have to exclusively judge things through word of mouth where people looking to trade their prices up will always have an information advantage (and either being able to haggle for a raw deal or scam them).

Wed, 07/08/2026 - 10:28
#4
Jcyrano's picture
Jcyrano
I have no idea what to say except...

SO we are finally calling predatory design, predatory design... are We going to held GH accountable for undoing what the previous companies that had the tittle, Did?
Are We going to applaud consumer friendly designs and refuse bad faith and predatory, artificial extended, anxiety inducing gameplay, are we going to prevent players from social pressure others into the same niche they are/want?

Are we going to have serious adult conversations?

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