This is such a bad change for no reason. What is the issue with box farming? Was it really that problematic to be able to get bronze UV tickets for like, 20% less when it usually costs 20,000 crowns a roll with a 1/6 chance to get something useful and a 76% chance to get a low? Im genuinely confused as to what the rationale could be that they thought farming forge boxes was an issue. You're still spending hundreds of thousands of crowns just to get one okay UV unless you're really lucky.

I was the crack farmer. Reeaaally sucks that we lost the only other viable farm other than FSC, one that was actually pretty engaging and skill intensive (running 0* armor, 3 0* weapons, and 0* shield in T3 tests your mechanics pretty well)

horrible change, don't go through with it

"Guys, please, it's really hard to proofread a 50 word post. ): What if gambling was even more mandatory, would that help? (:"

This whole situation bites. How is this happening? Y'all don't have publishers riding you to update in a rush, and we're just forum users, we ain't shareholders - I KNOW y'all ain't rushing for our sake. The hell is going on back there?

In theory maybe it makes energy prices go up to what the devs want, but it's still a bad idea because in any other context the purchasing power of crowns is about the same as it's always been. If they really want to correct the market what they need is an energy sink, rather than undermining crown supply. Plus people are still going to run FSC same as always so there won't be much of an effect.

So like, I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the thought process that leads to willingly carting 0* gear down to the lowest Clockworks depths, all for the slim chance of getting a box that one then chooses to sell for an indeterminate amount of crowns instead of opening it. Just so I'm clear, this is what you guys were doing, right?

1) Buying random useless garbage 0* items in bulk from Bazaar vendors. So that's already an upfront crowns cost.

2) Willingly taking said weapons to depths where they're actively miserable to use. Only way this makes any sense to me is if you're running a weapons slot and can stick something there as your third option that you'll never have to interact with.

3) Stopping at every single weapon station to level your gear with...wait, Warm crystals are the lowest-tier ones that actively drop, so with 0* gear you'd have to craft those down twice en masse, which incurs its own crown cost, to say nothing of the mind-numbing tedium.

4) All of this so that you can maybe occasionally get a Forge box to drop...which you then choose to sell instead of opening yourself to enjoy the rewards. Do I have all of this right?

I said this in another thread recently, but I genuinely feel like I'm playing a different game than most other SK players, and reactions like this only reinforce that. Like, these low-tier boxes didn't even exist until a month or two ago, right? They were meant as a fun little bonus for heating up some old useless gear, maybe a reason to do a few T1 runs and actually use those Thwack Hammers or Punch Guns you've had lying around for over a decade. You might get a few free Sparks and a Forge ticket for your troubles, and that was pretty cool. I mean I'm the type of crazy who willingly crafted a Wrench Wand a few weeks ago, so I'm down with that. But in no way were they ever meant to be some sort of crazy crown farm.

We all complained about the Kat event, and rightfully so, because it forces players who engage with it to play in the most patently un-fun way possible. But then I turn around and see people willingly choosing to play the game in a very similar fashion, to what end I don't know. I just...do not understand it.

Oh trust me, I get that it feels like an extremely low-priority thing to focus on given the widespread systemic issues the game has. But at the same time, the thought of using rewards like that to turn any sort of profit would have never crossed my mind in a hundred years. For new players in particular, I'd think it'd be far more worthwhile to open the boxes, because free Orbs and Sparks are a valuable resource at that point. And for myself as a veteran player...well I'm still opening every box, because my hunger for hoarding Sparks will not be satisfied until I hit a NaN amount. Plus I'll always take a free orb to work on crafting the hundreds of bits of gear I don't have. The UV tickets are honestly secondary to me, heck I have a few sitting around that I haven't even bothered to use yet.

Actually, no, I'm thinking about it more and I think the real reason this is wack is because it's effectively wallpapering over a whole system of incentive structures that need a serious rework beyond "let's maintain status quo," but someone more in tune with the player economy can probably make a better judgement on that. Myself, personally? I can only speculate based on appraising the game's incentive structures, mechanics, and up-front numbers. So far, though, they all point to a large number of players desperate to undermine a system that is inherently not very rewarding, BECAUSE it's not rewarding. Reduction of costs involved increases relative value of payoff and I think that's the real heart of the problem.

"Let's tackle what players are doing, rather than why they're doing it."

You can just buy 0* and 1* fire crystals from Vatel in the bazaar. No downcrafting necessary. You can buy 50 0* crystals for 500 crowns. 0* gear only costs 150 crowns, so you generally only spend a few thousand crowns to get a UV ticket that's equivalent to 20k.

Heating 0* gear in easy content really isn't some big ordeal. If you know that you only really need one weapon you can use the other weapon slots for heating, and switching to 0* armor isn't that dangerous in something like a Wolver Den. You can also easily heat a full set of 0* gear at the end of danger missions.

That said, I haven't sold any boxes either. I'll take all the UV tickets I can get. I think most of the people selling them are people who don't care about UV tickets.

Really dumb change though. And accidentally calling knights pirates in the patch notes is pathetic.

@Leafblader: ...I, uh. I straight up didn't know that. I don't buy from the bazaar. ^^"

I think the element that stands out the most to me is how the practice hasn't been curtailed, just the potential benefits of it that might - if read uncharitably - translate to trade-focused players only being able to have their fun if they pay their taxes, so to speak. Thinking that way does feel a little conspiratorial on my part, I admit, but when I consider the externalities that emerge from the players who stand to lose the most from this change; ones who'd be primed for seeking alternative game elements from which to extract value that would otherwise be wasted... it just feels reasonable to point out that this gameplay change kicks the can down the road in ways unpredictable enough to possibly be *more* damaging.

Even if it's not, that just raises the same question as before:
"If it's not a problem, why's this the first thing being "fixed"?"
Either players are actively engaged with abusing the system and this method of addressing it was absolutely the wrong one for reasons already explored, or they're not abusing it, and planning for this change never mattered to begin with. Cui bono? The MOST conspiratorial thing that could be said is "of course only the rarer fire crystals produce tradeable boxes" but that does start to feel a little unfair to say. I'd rather start from a perspective at least evidenced by market insight and player anecdote at minimum... that is, I trust a veteran player to share a grievance that sets precedent rather than just insist we're being squeezed. I'm open to being told a "why" but that's not happening any time soon...

I can't word it correctly at the moment, but there's something at the back of my mind that starts with the suggestion, "fire crystals at higher star ranks are easier to get from the depot," and ends with "more spending on crowns." I don't really want to give that line of thinking too much credence, but maybe someone else is getting the same sense and has more skill in connecting dots.

They already can, though. A new player can buy energy and trade it for crowns if they find the crown grind unforgiving (not that i think anyone even would?), and a new player is more likely to do this because they have a higher initial need for crowns (which has already been explored in other posts; recipe acquisition, alch, etc.). It costs about 3 dollars to do exactly that at current energy prices (for nearly 20,000 crowns).

If a new player gets a box, decides to sell it, and then puts that crown investment into their gameplay, that's helping tackle the dead crowns problem that was described in another post, and it's giving a player more time to explore the game's reward mechanics before feeling like they have to spend, which is important for player intake. It's also their decision to trade away a chance at a lootbox item for a clear boost to their gameplay progression. While it's admittedly a much smaller factor, the idea of having that choice feels kind of valuable because a new player uninterested in the box's contents has a way of converting it into a slice of gameplay they do care about instead.

It's not that I completely disagree with you from a balance perspective, because it (at least notionally?) might prevent a new player from breezing through what little content the game already has, but you didn't really give a reason why it's better for a newer player to have less currency beyond saying that it just is better, and this change doesn't revoke much access to crowns at all - it just moves it elsewhere.

If the forgebox change is good, I don't know that it can be for a reason that the game itself actively undermines via other systems.

Guys you are looking at this from a player standpoint. Of course this is a horrible change as a player. But look at it from the owner's perspective.

Crack boxes allowed new players to farm up cr very fast. This meant they were less likely to swipe for e/boxes
Crack boxes allowed UV rollers to avoid a crown sink, and by paying other players for boxes, crowns stopped being deleted from the game at punch

By removing trading crack boxes, the following happens.
New players no longer earn cr faster, so theyre more likely to buy boxes and energy to trade for cr.
UV rollers are forced to delete crowns from the game by paying punch directly.
Players are forced back into vana grinding, which GH knows players HATE, so theyre more likely to now swipe for e.

Also, tying in low e prices, low E prices are great for GH, because it means the consumers buying power is at an all time low. This means that we have to swipe more for the same amount. Theyd much rather have people need to swipe $200 for 2mcr instead of $100 for 2mcr.

It absolutely makes sense why GH did this change, but to say its pissed off the main playerbase is an understatement. This is ultimately yet another middle finger to us from GH, and which is also why they will never reply or address these complaints.

GH regularly says they are trying to improve feedback and community relations, yet ignore ANY points of contention they literally CAUSE.

Personally, I'm dropping the game as well if this change gets implemented without even addressing the community, its clear we are talking to a brick wall and GH is only back to "work" on this game because their other games have been milked to death, and this one is next in line.
(go read their steam negative reviews on puzzle pirates for example, its exactly what will happen to this game in the future) Why stick around for no new content and just an eternity of reskins, promos and getting ignored from now on? They said they want to improve communications but they avoid every inconvenient post like the plague instead of having a discussion with the community.

Let's be honest, they are probably reading this right now and are even pissed at us for complaining instead of accepting the bullshit like good little cashcows :)

Oh btw, there are also bots going rampant in the energy market while we are speaking.

And to think, all I wanted was authoring tools and a chance to give back. Easily the worst part of this is knowing that the playerbase didn't exactly throw the first stone. We don't get to decide how the game changes and evolves, we only get to react to it. If we're annoyed it's because someone made a change that diminished the quality of the experience.

I could understand being annoyed at all this negativity, but it's not emerging from the void. If there's a systemic issue being addressed that's extremely critical it should be very easy to be up front with the reason why a change was made after making that change - that's just how people usually do responsible disclosure. But then, there is no critical matter being addressed, is there.

GH has all the cards in this endeavor. If it's a decision motivated by spite in the wake of the Katastrophe that was the last couple of events and drops, just to get back at the playerbase, then... I don't know what to tell y'all. We'll play nice when y'all do.

Leaving people to sit and stew, feeling ignored, being shown promises in one hand and struck with the other, would make any group of players venomous. LinkedIn tells me GH has between 50 employees, and Three Employees. Sure, game dev is hard.

To that end: What do you need from us?

Do you really, *really* need us to pour dollars into the well while you deliver something big? Is that something you can ask us, face to face? We'll listen. Be open. Do you need support from the community beyond complaints? Seriously. I don't wanna get weird and parasocial but the care that the community has for this game is genuine. So genuine it's turning to bile at the state of it and fast.

Talk to us. Sure, "We don't want to make promises we can't keep!" but I'd say that ship's sailed if we didn't all watch it land in the bottom of the harbour by now. Have an argument with us, if you guys have to - tell us what challenges are being faced and why this all seems to be so difficult. Even if it's, "we're ten people running two games on 20 server boxes and we're tired of being yelled at." What's in the works? What are "backend improvements," by your reckoning? What should we NOT expect?

This was supposedly going to be a "return." A return to what? Time after time after time the community has tried to open a clear dialogue that will help everyone chart the course of the game, temper OUR expectations, and understand the challenges of this little project YOU'VE opened the door to already. Time after time, nothing has come of it, and we're left to speculate, and that speculation turns to BITTER resentment because of historical problems that still haven't gone away.

Believe it or not, I don't actually like saying "Grey Havens" like it's a four letter word. It's nice of you all to be here at all - and while it definitely doesn't look like it, we aren't just haters. We are trying to figure out what the path forward is, despite it all. Are you?

Uhhh, ok, late communication aside, if the issue is as you're describing, why not restrict new accounts from getting boxes for their first 24 hours of existence? or make only players beyond a certain rank drop them, there is a ton of better solutions

In that case I think you all overlooked a very simple fix here: Make level 1 proto gear have a 0% box drop chance.

So the activity that you were describing is the following:
- "experienced players creating new characters solely to farm a box quickly, then deleting the character, and repeating the cycle hundreds of times"

with a 24 hour initial restriction on a new knight's ability to generate boxes i think the activity would look like this for a potential exploiter:
- create 3 characters, wait 24 hours, log in the next day, get 5 chances for a box with each character, delete the 3 characters, make new ones and wait 24 hours again.

I think there is a drastic difference before the first and the second situation?? hundreds of non stop attempts versus 3 per day? in the second scenario the potential exploiter would just give up and go farm fsc.

You could say that they could make infinite accounts, but i think there are a ton of arguments against that as well:
1 - you already have a system in place that only lets you create limited accounts per machine
2 - you could just ban a person that creates a massive amount of accounts
3 - it doesnt matter anyway because the pain behind making unique new emails, or creating virtual machines for more accounts, just to have those as well wait for 24 hours is also bigger than just farming FSC

It really seems like there was a better way to prevent exploits here than to make a far-reaching change to what was a really interesting, emergent aspect of the game. Won't they still be able to pass unbound gear between the accounts and roll it with the new knights?

Let us please consider for a moment that this change was made as a first attempt to resolve an issue. Subsequent changes might improve this later on but it may have been a pressing concern for whatever reason to address the matter quickly via the means it presently has been addressed. The impact of these adjustments only becomes apparent with time, absent large player counts.

Also, please, we were *just* extended an olive branch, let's ease back a bit. It's got to be worth a GM's while to bother making these announcements too. We can meet them in the middle this once.

@Vyre I understand where you're coming from, but it's important to levy feedback anyway to ensure "first attempt" doesn't also mean "the way things are staying permanently," which is what happened with a number of other anti-alt-abuse situations sledgehammer patches addressed by reducing the quality of the game for everyone.

If this isn't where things are staying forever, then that's good! But we won't know that until it happens.

I don't want to infantilize the team making changes here. These are grown adults just like many of us. There has been no mention of this being a "first pass" solution. The only assumption we can make right now is this change is here to stay. I think that is a shame, these boxes had amazing potential to be used in community events, giveaways, guild events, etc. The higher-star boxes are much more difficult to obtain and the game gives us no way to speed it up other than exorbitantly high-cost heat amplifiers.

I don't know how the you all manage to make an oversight every few months, you may disagree that this isn't one but it is one of many. Many of us have pushed for a community manager that is actively engaged in the game, the day to day so that they would know simple things that cause backlash. I respect you all and appreciate you immensely for keeping the game up and all the work you've put in behind the scenes. Recently it feels like a coat of fresh paint was put on an old house and the existing cracks are becoming visible again.

A ton of discussion has been had over Vanaduke being stale meta we all farm in this game and the forge box system that was just "bug fixed" was a very refreshing new alternative for Vanaduke the first since OCH 14 years ago. The forge rework was one if not the best quick, simple change we've probably ever had and a snap of the fingers it was all for not, a taste of the Spiral Knights that we want taken away because of oversight. I expected this change at some point because forge box farming is very lucrative around 1-2 weeks in, but 3 months after a lot of people have become accustom to it and invested in it I did not expect. Forge box farming is refreshing for older players more so than new ones, not sure why the focus seems to be so much on new players with it, the old players who've wanted forge boxes to be viable for 14 years are enjoying it much more so and the old players are the one who stick around and keep this game alive. Of course new players are important but the minimum forge having 100% success rate is the main thing for new player retention not the boxes. The real move to keep new players is making alchemy orbs more attainable, many stop over the advance/elite orb bottle neck in the rank missions.

This is on par with removing Cyber Monday sales, if another youtuber makes a "what killed spiral knights" video again. Cyber Monday removal and Forge Box farming being given and taken away will be apart of that video.

Please revert the change to bind forge boxes, I'm sure that there is a simpler solution to this without reworking the entire forge system. Please bring back Cyber Monday too or keep the new system behind it you told us then abandoned.

Give us a little more influence and we'll help you make Spiral Knights what it should be.

With all due respect @Werewolfkirby - If you have nothing to contribute to a post, please refrain from doing the opposite of contributing. The title of the post is "The Forge Box Change Was A Horrible Idea" and one can expect a respectful discussion on said topic - barging in and requesting a cease and desist in order to shut down the conversation is the *only* instance of entitled behaviour here.

This reply was instead supposed to solely address the topic of the post, but your behavior is honestly closely related to the root of the problem regarding such a change - ultimately, you detract from the conversation and obstruct the conversation, cutting the connection between questions and answers. Passive-aggressive advocacy for owner-made decisions which objectively detriment to the player, being defended by the same, is some part of the toxic formula here that perpetuates the issue in the most self-harming way - please don't.

I won't address and deconstruct your points in excruciating detail ("shame that people actually relied on these for a quick buck instead of just playing actual content" - riveting content that subsists of farming FSC must be defended at all cost; "We got progress of the dev's interacting and giving explanations" - I honestly think you should ask for less and thank them more, we as players deserve nothing but punishment) nor will I address the numerous issues with the explanations given by Cronus, and the ways they can be deferred or resolved or the fact they imply issues far far FAR greater than the one here, issues that are obviously not as pressing?

I just wanted to say that, if you browse General on the forum, quite a few posts thank GH for the Forge Box Update. Profusely thank them, say they hope that they define the direction the game will be going in.

Just read them and weep, like I do.
Or don't.

Just show them and us and yourself the respect deserved. Thank you.