Playing to never get hit is more about cutting it as close as you can to deal max damage while rarely taking any. It actually doesn't slow down your damage much because you really only spend a tiny fraction of your time defending/dodging. Yes, if you take one swing then run off screen things will take a while. Like wise if you do take damage and end up playing super defensively things take a lot longer. The other big benefit is you can load up on damage/asi gear which not only helps you kill faster but lets you defend better. You also have plenty of health to rez the kamikazes and take their heat =D
If you get hit, then you messed up.
Sat, 07/02/2011 - 16:32
#52
Playing to never get hit is
Sat, 07/02/2011 - 16:39
#53
Good advice, good advice.
Good advice, good advice. It's a bit general of course, but if more newbies would follow it they'd last long enough to have to start taking into account more complex things.
I would add that pushing enemies with your shield is usually MUCH better than blocking, as you can only block a few attacks before you become completely helpless and you can generally push an enemy much farther away than you could move yourself, improving your chances of avoiding their attack.
Also, I see a lot of new players who never ever use their charge attacks. Obviously, the function of those varies greatly between weapons, but figuring out how to use each one effectively will lead to greater success (and much more fun gameplay) than just mashing the attack button over and over again.
Sat, 07/02/2011 - 23:32
#54
It's one thing to be able to
It's one thing to be able to not get hit much when you need to, but sometimes be more aggressive and accept that you might take a hit or two for the sake of ending the battle faster. I do that sometimes, too, when I know that it won't matter if I get hit for one reason or another. It's entirely different to not know how to be cautious in the first place, but charge in and take a beating every single time, even when it's a big problem if you take unnecessary hits.
------
A couple of days ago, I was in a group of three, doing one of the wide open gremlin levels, and we had mostly cleared it except for using the keys. I went in to the first key to make the mobs spawn around it, and then blocked and ran away. Because you have so much room to run around, it's a pretty easy pull, but I thought, these people I'm grouping with don't know how to dodge, and they're both going to die.
I pulled the two mobs that moved away from the area, leaving just the four gun puppies, which are easy to kill without getting hit if you're cautious, as they spread out some. Sure enough, the other two people in my group died pretty quickly. One of them then revived himself with energy, continued fighting, and then died again. After I killed the other two mobs and came back, I found that in three deaths, they had managed to clear exactly one gun puppy. I killed the other three myself and then revived them, and I didn't get hit at all that battle. From killing the gun puppies myself, I don't think that the other party members had managed to do much damage to any of them.
That is the sort of situation that I'm against. It wasn't that the people couldn't dodge. They weren't even trying. They were completely reckless. If someone gets hit now and then, but not really faster than hearts drop to refill his life, that's no big deal. But when you're dying every level, and sometimes more than once, and other players are having to use up their own health to revive you and risk dying themselves as a result, it's a problem. I really don't like it when I'm put in a situation where if I get hit once, that wipes the group. I don't mean one additional hit, after being hit a bunch of previous times. I mean, I don't get hit at all most of the way through a level, I get hit once near the end of the level, and that wipes the group.
And when such reckless people complain that you're not reviving them fast enough, even after you revive someone five or seven times in a single level, well, the topic of this thread was really addressed to those people.
Sun, 07/03/2011 - 20:09
#55
"No you can't {solo T3 in
"No you can't {solo T3 in proto gear}. You reach a point where two healers can easily heal far faster than you can possibly deal damage, and it will happen often enough that you can't just use vials to help. {...}at least not without carefully picking levels and just running rather than killing stuff. "
It will take cherry-picking gates and levels. It will probably take some creative pulling to split off healers. It might take running past mobs without killing them at times.
(bolded stuff re-added from the snipped quote)
I don't consider picking only the easiest levels that you can run through really "soloing T3 in proto gear" like you claim to be able to do.
I should try it sometime.
yes, seeing how far you can get in proto gear is a good challenge. Besides the obvious problem of not being able to hurt healers aster than they can heal each other, you have to remember that if you are doing only 10% of the DPS as 4* gear, you need to back up 10 times as far while kiting. This is often not an option when you are starting a level. Your battles take 10 times as long, making it much more likely you will run into situations where you have no where to dodge to. Remember, at even T2 levels, you can no longer shield or shield bump.
Sun, 07/03/2011 - 20:28
#56
devil city
well what do u do when theres devilites kats greavers and healers in a closed space (ya those nasty fights in devil city, damn i hate devilites)? i think ive done eveything solo without dieing, except for firestorm citadel and the damn fiend theme strat 6! damn its jsut impossible when theres more than 4 devilites and kats in the same space and they just fire as fast as gun puppies, man i was amazed the buff speed they got to throw stuff when i came from tier 2, i have yet to get a tactic to do that without taking any damage, all ive figured is hide behind the lil crystal blocks but damn kats and greavers just ruin it. how do u do that?
Mon, 07/04/2011 - 22:45
#57
yeah greavers I hate, and
yeah greavers I hate, and devilites can leave me with half a pip of health in a flash, I can beat any one monster easy but if it gets crowded then my non shadow resistant shield won't cut it. I have single lifed the whole clockworks (even in one go) besides FSC which is the last thing left, well, until next boss.
For devil city, their spawns are predetermined so you make sure you hit them hard as they spawn, Since I use the calibur line I await fully charged and try to kill stuff with the full set of hits against a wall, which are everywhere since the areas are small. Then kill them by their threat level, kats are the easier to evade, hardest are greavers (because they home in and if you screw up your evasive maneuvers a bit they hit you), then devilites because they shoot too fast, the trojan is actually a godsend because it aids you with some friendly fire. This is assuming you solo, if you are in party then you better have a good one, the aggro will be divided so technically it should be easier, but only if they are able to manage to stay alive.
Fri, 07/08/2011 - 16:32
#58
Read it!
The original post is very VERY useful and I'm sure every new player definitely SHOULD check it.
Many players just storm through the levels without any sign of strategy, which works perfectly in T1. In T2, however, this gets you killed pretty fast.
It's not like I am an expert, but I try to avoid obviously stupid mistakes (AKA running happily through the thorned bushes... Beware the thorns, PLEASE, you can easily walk around them!).
I try to take my time, let the gremlins swing their axe right after I move away from them, or lure that little pink cube just out of the range of Gun Puppies etc... Most of the monsters has realy good attack animation that allow you to move out of the way or raise your shield.
Also Kats make specific sound right before they attack! :)
But I kinda don't get what is wrong with charged attacks? I read that the charged attacks of Calibur line are bad because it can throw monsters to your co-fighters, which is true and I didn't realize this before. But what is wrong with other swords' charged attacks?
Fri, 07/08/2011 - 19:09
#59
"like you claim to be able to
"like you claim to be able to do."
There's a big difference between "I think this is theoretically possible" and "I can actually do this." I'm pretty sure that it's theoretically possible for a basketball player to make a thousand consecutive free throws. I can't do it, though.
There's also a huge difference between "can solo a few levels" and "can solo most levels", even if they take some cherry-picking. I'd be skeptical that Jelly King is soloable without dying in proto gear, but everything else in tier 2, save danger rooms, likely is. In tier 3, I'd expect most levels to still be soloable in proto gear, even if many of them would be very hard. There are probably quite a few more exceptions in tier 3 than in tier 2, for cases with multiple darkclaw menders in small, enclosed areas that make them impossible to separate.
"But I kinda don't get what is wrong with charged attacks?"
There are (at least) three real problems with charged attacks, all of which are situational. The obvious one is that if you're already in melee range of a mob, it's more effective to spam normal attacks than to charge one. But basically everyone gets that, so let's ignore it.
Another problem with charged attacks is that you can't block while charging a weapon. Now, if you're perfectly safe, that's irrelevant. But if there are mobs in the area and they have ranged attacks, then keeping your shield up while you're not directly attacking will save you quite a few hits. If you're trying to charge a sword, sometimes you get hit from mobs in the area that you didn't see were about to attack. If there are several mobs in an area and I don't have a good read on what all of them are doing, I'll often just keep my shield up and move around a bit until I do see what they're all doing and find an opening to attack safely.
A third problem with charged attacks is that they can knock mobs a long way. Knocking a mob while it attacks may mean that a teammate gets hit by a mob that he shouldn't have had to worry about, because it should have been well out of range--and was, until you knocked it into him. Losing 12 lines of health because a teammate decided to charge his sword and knock a lumber right into you as it attacked is not fun.
Now, all of those are situational, so it's not like saying that you should never charge a sword. Like every other damage tool that you have, it's fine if used intelligently, but it's not the right tool for every occasion.
Fri, 07/08/2011 - 19:34
#60
closed spaces with devilites
remember spawning place, charge shivermist, drop shivermist, run to party button, kill 1 at a time.
Problem solved!
(can't believe no1 said this...)
Sat, 07/09/2011 - 06:03
#61
@ Quizzical - Ah, I see...
@ Quizzical - Ah, I see... seems like a common sense to me :) But I can imagine that some players don't think about what are they doing, so they probably miss those somewhat obvious 'problems'.
Either way, thanks for answer ;)
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 18:36
#62
I just took a few shots at
I just took a few shots at tier 3 in the newest gate, which I think is coral falcon. The sixth stratum is fiend-themed, so that's as hard as devilites get. I finished it and made it to the core on the most recent run. It was a party of three, and we cleared it without ever needing energy to revive.
The main trick to fiends is to keep your shield up at nearly all times. Against one or two fiends, this is pretty easy. Get the strongest shadow shield that you can (I used sinister skelly shield, which is four stars), and it can take quite a few hits from devilites before it breaks.
It's very important to note that ordinary sword attacks will interrupt a devilite, not just the third hit of a combo like some other mobs. If you're fighting two devilites and one devilite attacks, then you can safely whack the other one. The first can't attack a second time consecutively, and if the second tries to attack, you'll interrupt it. Hit once, then put your shield back up. If you're keeping your shield down for a full second, you're doing it wrong.
One devilite is easier, of course. Keep your shield up and approach, and if it doesn't seem to be doing anything, whack it once with your sword and then put your shield back up. Wait a bit, rinse, and repeat. If you've really got the devilite all alone, then you can hack away until you kill it outright. Other than that, trying to attack more than once consecutively leaves you too vulnerable to attacks from other devilites.
It also helps to have a variety of obstacles in the way to block mobs and shield you from attacks. Devilites attack at range, and you're melee, so the obstacles get in their way, not yours.
Someone before mentioned the rotating spikes room. A mega magnus actually works pretty well there until they get off the spikes, as it will also interrupt devilites. I'd assume that the other "heavy" guns do likewise, though the mega magnus is the one I was carrying at the time. As with a sword, shoot once and then immediately put your shield back up. Whether you're using a sword or a gun, keep moving around constantly.
As I said before, you can try to break up mobs so that you only have to fight one or two at a time. In some places, you've got lots of room to pull as needed. Some of the arena type things also give you a lot of room, but some don't. Party members should try to spread out as best as they can, though this isn't always practical.
I did the first two levels of the stratum (depths 24 and 25) without getting hit at all. The second of those had one of the big rotating spikes rooms, too. I took some hits in the later depths, and quite a few in Sinful Steps II at depth 27. I think both of the Sinful Steps levels have a couple of spots that are basically, there are too many mobs in too little space, and there's nothing you can do about it, so you're going to get hit and just have to deal with it. Save up your health capsules ahead of time if you can.
In most of your battles against devilites, though, you're still not supposed to get hit. It's just harder to do than it is in a lot of other places. There are a relative handful of spots (e.g., certain arena, especially in the Sinful Steps levels) where there are just too many devilites, and clearing the arena without getting hit is impractical. But that's only the case for a small minority of the fights against devilites.
"Of course, playing to never get hit means that things take a lot longer to kill, so it's often not worth playing completely safe and instead adjusting your risk-taking as your health changes. I'm a lot more reckless with a full health bar than I am at a quarter health."
Amen, im usually up front dealing damage in any group, but if i dip between half and one health, im going to be far away plugging enemies with my cryotech or magnus