Spiral Knights - Two Weapon Ideas!

Two Weapon Ideas!

11 replies [Last post]

Mon, 06/27/2011 - 17:33

decibel

Legacy Username

So me and some friends were playing around with some weapon ideas I figured you guys might like to contribute some of your ideas to. I figure Spiral Knights would do well to include more weapon variety at some point down the road so I'm doing my part and offering some concepts we came up with. I did my best to keep them within the "Spiral Knights" style and feel, but you'll be the judge of that.

I also tried to avoid the balance issues brought about by suggestions like "I WANT A SUPER SORD THAT KILLS ALL TEH PPL AND THEN SHOOTS A DRAGON FROM THE TIP", as well as the pointless desire for elements from other games for their own sake like "I want a mystikal magic katana/massive machine gun so I can be a mysterious bishie swordsman/grimdark space marine".

SO!

~~HAND-CANNONS~~

"But Decibel!" you say. "You said no massive machine guns!"

Silence, peasant! Hand cannons are the oldest of portable firearms. I had a sort of bomb/gun hybrid idea, not unlike a grenade launcher of sorts.

WHY IT WOULD BE AWESOME
> Ranged attacks that actually hurt!
> Splash damage!
> Knockback!
> At least a chance for Stun, perhaps others like Fire or Poison for other lines!

BALANCING TIME
> Charge required, like bomb, effectively making it single-shot.
> Reload time! It's a gun, after all.
> Must remain still while standing! This thing is heavy.

Now I'm not sure if I'm nerfing the idea of a grenade launcher hard enough but perhaps it would be pertinent to also include knockback on the player (like with the Punch Gun/Magnus charges) and probably range limitation. Having the projectile travel in a straight trajectory would also make it vulnerable to gates and such. I really like the idea but I'm afraid it would be abused and highly sought after unless it had some weaknesses.

Now for the melee brawler who likes to trade punches with the enemy... I'm looking at you, non-T3 players.

~~KNUCKLES~~

"Oh cool! I can finally slug those Lumbers back for all those times I got slammed into spikes!"

Calm yourself, peon. My idea for Knuckles is a bit more developed than the Hand-Cannons so I'll actually have hypothetical examples up. They don't fill any niche that hasn't been filled but I just like the idea.

WHY IT WOULD BE AWESOME
> COMBOS!
> Massive damage on single enemies!
> Status effects! I like status effects!
> to be honest i just like the idea

BALANCING TIME
> Small damage cone, maybe 30° in front of the player.
> Moves the player forward (like with the Spur line), putting them in the thick of danger.
> Combos mean less damage if interrupted.

So for some ideas on how that would all work, I conjured up some examples, for Knuckles that split at some point in their evolutionary family.

CESTUS
> High normal damage!
> Chance to Stun charge/last hit!
> Slower combo!
> Charge attack would be like getting hit by a train made of fist!

AGNI'S FIST
> Split normal/elemental damage!
> Chance to cause Fire charge/last hit!
> Medium-paced 3 or 4-hit combo!
> Charge attack... HADOKEN! Just kidding, a flaming uppercut or something.

SICK KNUCKLES
> Pierce damage! Maybe even split with normal? Has that been done?
> Chance to cause Poison on every hit!
> Fast Cutter-like ∞-hit combo!
> No idea for the charge! Anything but the Cutter's...

Just some examples. Anyway, apologies for the wall of text and excessive zeal, but I hope you take the time to think about these if you like them. Be sure to include your harshest and most cutting criticism, because I don't want to walk away thinking these are awesome if they're not. Feel free to add anything too!

Mon, 06/27/2011 - 18:26

Armyunit

I like the hand-cannon idea,

I like the hand-cannon idea, and it actually might not be easily abusable, since it's so slow. The idea reminds me of the Troika line.

I'm not so sure about the knuckles... knights don't usually use their fists, right?
Then again, we aren't ordinary knights. :p

EDIT: The Cestus' charge attack seems odd to me.. what exactly do you mean by a "train of fist"?

Wed, 06/29/2011 - 08:58

Effrul

I really like both ideas,

I really like both ideas, though I actually think the Hand Cannon is the better-realised. It's the most elegant solution I've seen so far to the demand for a grenade launcher-style weapon; combining one of the biggets weaknesses of bombs (the necessity of charging) with the primary strength of firearms (range) is inspired.

The thing about Knuckles-style weapons is that they've got to make sense in the context of SK's combat dynamic - which means they've got to make sense in concert with a shield. I like the idea as an ultra-short-range weapon, but think the actual mechanics could use some work. Combos make less sense when you remember that characters always but always have a shield in their other hand, but high attack speed could work, or maybe more exotic attributes - like vastly increased status-affliction chance, or extraordinary knockback (effectively making them "shove" or even grapple weapons) compared to swords, guns or bombs.

As far as making sense in terms of fitting the gameworld, the idea immediately put me in mind of Warhammer 40k's Power Fist (and related weapons like the Lightning Claw), which I think could be slotted quite neatly into the game without breaking style. There's a lot of potential for some really cool-looking loadouts here.

Wed, 06/29/2011 - 09:27

nearo

Legacy Username

The fists need moar

FALCON!

Wed, 06/29/2011 - 10:57

dumburntoast

Legacy Username

Good ideas

i think the hand cannon idea is great, but for knuckles I think it should be less about comboing and more focused on charge attacks. Right now, most weapons have very similar charge attacks. Giving each fist weapon a unique charge attack would keep things interesting

Wed, 06/29/2011 - 16:30

CorianWornen

Legacy Username

Based off of Fighting Styles

Each fist style family could be based off of some form of fighting. Like a pair of boxing gloves could play like a boxer. Or sparing gloves like a martial artist. Also another possible balancer is that in the real world you can't fist fight with a shield so if you have a fist weapon your shield would be on your back like in haven and the gloves provide small blocking capabilities only from the front (like a mecha knight or trojan)

The hand cannon sounds more like just another possible family of gun, not a whole new tier. If they added fists though there would be four weapon types, which would make it worth having four weapon slots so that you can have one of each.

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 04:14

Effrul

Something about shouldering

Something about shouldering one's shield when you equip the weapon doesn't sit right with me; the benefits of the glove weapons would have to be extremely high to offset the voluntary defense-nerfing of unequipping your shield, and, with all due respect to badass martial artists the world over, smacking someone in the chops should not be more effective than stabbing them. Besides, as ArmyUnit mentioned, these characters are knights - certainly unusual knights not entirely rooted in our historic figures, but knights nonetheless, and voluntarily sheathing their weapons to clout a monster with their fists doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Part of the trick would be to get them to fit in with the existing weapon sets whilst maintaining a separate identity. Sword lines with extended combo ability already exist, which is why I suggested other ways to distinguish these things from swords (enormous knockback or status effect capability). The idea is to make these things complement the other weapon types without making them redundant. Take the extreme knockback as an example: whilst not doing a lot of damage, you could use it to punt an enemy out of melee range, giving you the space to charge a sword attack or a bomb, or just to pepper them with bullets (this would work with certain status effects, too - Stun, Sleep, Freeze to an extent, possibly even Shock). It'd make glove weapons more a support equip, but a valuable one, with tactical applications for gunners, bombers and sword-wielders alike.

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 08:14

Martinsen

I like the ideas! (I'm really

I like the ideas! (I'm really just commenting so that this thread will be on top)

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 09:22

DevilXTreme

Legacy Username

I like the fist idea but.. hand cannon is kinda.. there?

If you look at Magnus, it shoots big bullets... as big as cannons... and they do hurt and do effects.. like stun.
And i didnt understand splash dmg...

But +1 for the knuckles idea. Now i can honestly tell people, i boxed JK in his face!

Fri, 07/01/2011 - 05:38

zcstover

Legacy Username

like the ideas!

for anyone who doesnt understand the grenade launcher things i think he meant them to be like the gremlin's who throw bombs and say "catch"

i like the ideas!

Fri, 07/01/2011 - 12:27

#10

Fraxur

i think Cestus is a bit like

i think Cestus is a bit like Troika, Kamarin and Khorovod

Fri, 07/01/2011 - 15:18

#11

decibel

Legacy Username

details time!

@ CorianWornen I don't think Hand Cannons could strictly be classified as guns in-game... the proposed idea necessitates charging, which I feel merits it a different category. All guns require reloading, all bombs require charging, no exceptions. Hand Cannons would require both (and of course, play differently. You wouldn't just be able to kite with one).

@ DevilXTreme The Magnus line isn't quite the same... I think the Magnus line is based off of the high-powered revolvers popularized by movies like Dirty Harry (see: Callahan).

It's true that, colloquially, revolvers that big referred to as "hand cannons" as well, but I'm referring to those ancient stone firing tubes used by the ancient Chinese and the like. Something like the Dardanelles gun but scaled down. In my mind they'd be the same size and carried in a similar way to modern day man-portable minigun.

I like the variety of ideas for the Knuckles (mainly because my own were so poorly developed). The problems seem to be having them do something that isn't being done already... I like the ideas for increased knockback and interesting charges to set them apart from swords. I also liked the idea of having to choose between equipping knuckles or having a shield to defend with... but like Effrul said, it would have to be stylistically seamless as well as being good tradeoff.

Despite the fact that shields are integral to playing SK, I was thinking about increased mobility bonuses or something for equipping knuckles (shields are heavy; also to help with dodging things as well as attacking) but that seems to be getting too far into "we're going to make this idea work, dammit, no matter how many gameplay mechanics we have to overhaul" territory. I don't know. Thoughts?

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Two Weapon Ideas!