Spiral Knights - A Few Things that Got My Attention

A Few Things that Got My Attention

22 replies [Last post]

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 11:30

bushwhacker

Legacy Username

I've been playing for around a week now (possibly longer) and I enjoy this game, quite a bit, it's easy to get on and play with my friends.

Because I like it, the things I don't like stand out more to me.

A few of the things that bother me:

-Devilites seem to attack too suddenly, I've heard of the aura that appears when enemies attack referred to as 'telegraphing' but when devilites do it, they are certainly NOT telegraphing. It's always amazingly fast to the point that unless your shield is already up, there isn't really any way to avoid being hit, and with multiple devilites in a closed room the hits pile up really fast. I want to make it clear that I'm not saying I dislike difficult enemies, so much as I dislike it when there's something enemies can do that I can't do anything about, I'm powerless.

-When I lag, I tend to get hit, and even more than with devilites, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't lag often, but when I do it's often in an area with multiple enemies that are closing in on me. It's not really fair for players to suffer for something they don't have control over. I don't know precisely how ping detection works, but there seems to be an indicator in the top right that can detect it. What I suggest is that when it is detected that a player is lagging at a certain rate, that player automatically activates block until the lag drops off. It wouldn't make the player invincible, but it'd give them a fighting chance where they previously had none.

-It's nearly impossible to prevent lichen from combining. I admit players have more control over this than the last two things I mentioned, but I've found players have to be extremely lucky to prevent even 2 lichen from joining another growing lichen. If the action of lichen combining took slightly longer, there'd be something players could do but overall if they're close enough then players are totally powerless to stop them.

-Gun reloading serves no purpose. When a player reloads a gun, he is slowed and unable to raise his shield, because the player has the option to stop one bullet short of reloading, there is pretty much no reason to reload at all. There are a number of ways to improve this; allowing characters to block while reloading; making reloading give some kind of bonus, like a chance that all the bullets of the next clip will do additional damage; changing reloading so that it doesn't slow us, etc.

-Last, but not least, freeze breaks too easily. I have been using a cryotech alchemer for a long time, but freeze doesn't activate that often, and when it does it is broken almost immediately after, whether it be from a careless shot from me or a careless ally or even an ally that simply doesn't care. Because freeze breaks so easily, 90% of the time this gun's status effect is worthless, I think the best way to fix this would be having the frozen effect unable to break for a certain amount of time, so players can recognize that an enemy is frozen and stop attacking them.

Thanks for reading.

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 14:36

Nodocchi

Devilites may attack fast but

Devilites may attack fast but they also get interrupted quite easily and it is quite hard for one to hit you with a ranged attack if you keep moving.

The lag suggestion is an interesting idea.

It is quite easy to prevent lichen from combining. If you see two more than one lichen in an area, start knocking them away from each other. You generally don't try to stop lichen from joining when they are already next to each other but take preventative measures to ensure they never get an opportunity to join.

The point with the gun reloading is that it is a tradeoff between being lazy and shooting fast bursts or learning the timing and shoot at the same speed but have the opportunity to block more readily. Players who just spam attack with their guns already get enough of a bonus with not having to think or need the skills to actually be able to shoot fast without reloading.

I always thought the purpose of freeze was to lock enemies in place until an attacker can take advantage of the target's immobility (For example with charge attacks). In which case it doesn't really matter than the next attack breaks the freeze, just play with teammates that actually know how to take advantage of frozen enemies.

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 12:13

Backpack

Legacy Username

yea the only thing in this

yea the only thing in this list that is even REMOTELY reasonable as something to fix, would be the devilits hittin you through your shield, other than that, 80% of the things you listed are on purpose i believe

lichen are VERY easy to prevent, but why prevent them, they better as a mini-boss and i believe they even give better loot that way, i always combine them, ive even tried to combine a whole lvl but didnt get anything more than the devil ear'd type...

your problems with devilits will be solved if you learn to use barbarous blade or flourish (vs fiend is even better) with specifically a "SHIVERMIST" -- once i started useing a pierce weapon and shivermist i went from dying in a small room of devilits to killing all of them without getting hit, several waves, not hit once... its great... try it out once, but you want 4-5* freezing/shiver bomb -- 3 is to small, 4 is barely enough if placed right and 5 star is AWSOME

cryo alch only freezes once, you leave it alone and it takes damage to thaw and stays a long time, dont hit it again, thats part of teamwork, again shivermist, you can hit them several times and they refreeze if within the bomb area and the bomb is still active. its awsome...

problems solved :P oh and gun is on purpose too im petty sure, quite surprised you found these as something wrong...

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 13:19

bushwhacker

Legacy Username

My Points are Legitimate

"The point with the gun reloading is that it is a tradeoff between being lazy and shooting fast bursts or learning the timing and shoot at the same speed but have the opportunity to block more readily. Players who just spam attack with their guns already get enough of a bonus with not having to think or need the skills to actually be able to shoot fast without reloading.

You are definitely mistaken about gun reloading, there is no trade-off as there is no advantage to reloading, it only inconveniences people.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying about freeze, it breaks too easily because a single shot gets rid of it so people keep accidentally breaking it. Maybe you haven't used the cryotech gun line, but it's definitely an issue.

"problems solved :P oh and gun is on purpose too im petty sure, quite surprised you found these as something wrong..."

Oh! So all I have to do is get 4-star and 5-star gear and all my problems are solved, right? Considering I'd have to play while dealing with all the problems I just listed for a long time that's not really helpful >_>

Gun is not on purpose, unless the person who designed that didn't think it through very well, as I stated before there is absolutely NO reason to reload, there's no advantage. I don't use bombs, I especially don't even have bombs at 4/5-star level.

I can accept that maybe lichens aren't as bad as the other things, but everything else on the list is a problem worth recognizing and I stand by it.

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 14:20

Kilrain

It seems you're a bit

It seems you're a bit confused about the posts about reloading, as nobody said there was an advantage to it. In fact, xiax explained it as a punishment for being a lazy player and shooting as fast as you can instead of learning weapon timings, which yes. There have to be some mechanics to master there or else gunslinging would be way too easy.

The lag idea is interesting, but I'm hesitant to support anything that takes control from the player. I can imagine a scenario in which I'm lagging, and trying to run away from a group of mobs while charging my weapon. At the moment this would be a viable strategy even with a certain amount of lag. But if every time my ping dropped I was forced to shield, my charge would keep getting interrupted and my relatively safe strategy would be out the window.

Freeze can be broken carelessly pretty easily, but that's mostly an issue of teamwork. If you land a bad PUG where people are constantly breaking your freeze, explain to them why it's better to attack unfrozen enemies. You can't control what people do, but you can help them improve their gameplay. Making it unbreakable for a short time seems a bit too much like sleep imho. If they ever release a weapon that causes that status effect, then you might be happier with that.

Finally, I actually agree with the devilite issue, if only because fiends are so much more difficult at the moment than any other creature type, which seems a bit silly and unbalanced. Shadow defense and constant running should help for now, as well as only attacking once they've just thrown something. Unfortunately in large groups they can still be incredibly painful, esp if you're going solo >T2. So yes, I would reduce their attack speed, but not by much - you don't want to neuter the difficulty, and there have to be reasons to build different defensive sets, but the storm of office supplies seems a little much right now.

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 15:24

Backpack

Legacy Username

@OP: wow man, your like in

@OP: wow man, your like in another world when it comes to understanding the game, there is MEANT to be challenges in the game, the idea isnt to make it the easiest thing in the world and to not ever have to think, why would you expect an ADVANTAGE to reloading? how often do you find games worth a damn that you DONT have to reload, yea some have more bullets but are you shooting bullets of fire/ice/ect...

and yes i have used every alchemer gun, my cryo is only 3 star too, yes it breaks in 1 hit, thats the idea, USE IT CORRECTLY, dont just shoot him again and break it, unless you prefer shooting that npc to death where the ice doesnt matter, its a one hit deal, thats the point of it, again use freezing vaporizer, it will hold them in place the whole time its active, no you dont need 4-5 star i just suggested it cause it has a much larger area.... YES you are going to have lower quality weapons when they are lower level, thats just how it works...

@killerrabbit: Oh please dont push for devilit nurf, the game has been nurfed due to steam 2year old crying and people like this OP wanting everything to be so damn easy so much already its redicilous, games have no challenge or skill requirement anymore, this one BARELY has one, would be nice to keep it, theres almost nothign challenging to the game left, vanaduke is about the only thing i die to anymore and its cause ive only doen it a few times and have very little experence along with lag by the tiem you get there is usually pretty ugly...

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 18:20

MacoDelo

Legacy Username

(~O_o) Hm...

I agree that the devilites are a bunch of bad news bears (devils in this case), alwasy mobbing us knights with their constant attacks. However, do be certain that you do not always have to do the complete "three-hit" combo with your sword. Realize that you can do either one-hit or two-hit successions and completely revert to shield between your attacks, so that you are less likely to get him from devilite attacks.

I tend to use only one hit successions whenever I go solo and encounter MANY devilites. And since I use the TROIKA for power, I revert to shield immediately between attacks as to quickly defend myself, especially since the heavy swords are slow. But I bet you can beat them quickly without taking damage if your witty and quick with a spur or arc.

Otherwise, I am unsure whether the frost on a frozen enemy is easily damaged. It takes about 1-2 seconds or so for most of the enemies I encounter. And I am interested in your suggestion concerning gun reloading.

Good suggestions. But my suggestion that I will post in a seperate thread is concerning the training room. If you wish to read that, simply look up the title "Remodel the Training Academy" under this same forum (^_^)^.

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 21:53

Dasparian

OP:

Devilites: Yes, projectile speed could use some tweaking. However, if you have someone draw their attention and just shield, other members of a group can deal with them. Solo, it's a good idea try to get them throwing items in sync so you can predict the next volley.

Lag: killerabbit said it best.

Lichens: If you shield push Lichens away from each other, you can separate them into manageable clumps. Only Lichen Colonies and larger are a threat, so having a few miniature colonies crop up isn't a big deal.

Reload: It's the same concept as a sword combo, just without a damage bonus for consecutive hits. Guns are weird as of this post, but without a reload they'd be silly.

Freeze: Shift targets/keep kiting. If they get broken out of freeze, just freeze them again. Improving the Freeze status effect also means when players get frozen it takes extra effort to free them. The Cryo Driver isn't really good for applying freeze though; bombs have greater coverage, like stated earlier.

All in all, most of these problems outside of lag can be dealt with through experience and good teamwork, which doesn't show up until later in the game. Thankfully, you have all of T1 and some of T2 to bumble your way through learning how to deal with enemies.

Oh, and Backpack? STFU and stop trolling. It's embarrassingly obvious that you're spouting opinions without reading other people's posts.

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 22:10

CorianWornen

Legacy Username

@Dasparin

How is Backpack trolling? He's right! This game has been nurfed to horrid levels. The OP here is just another one of the people who refuse to learn any actual skills and play the game like and actual gamer. Nowadays, everyone just want's to be able to kill everything in one hit right out of the starting gate, but that's not a game, that's a slaughter. The fact that this game actually requires skill and strategy alone makes it a far better game. But because mass amounts of people like the OP keep complaining about their little scrapes and boo-boos OOO keeps taking away the actual challange of this game. So don't call a person a troll until you understand the diffrence between egging on and stating their own opinion. Now that's two on his side.

Thu, 06/30/2011 - 22:33

Dasparian

Context.

Very few people have actually been crying for Devilite nerfs. In fact, the main post in which Backpack responds by bringing out the "crying" card is one that DOESN'T advocate the nerfing of Devilites.

In which case it'd appear that someone didn't read posts in entirety or read what the general discussion nature of the thread was about. Either case, the discussion of whether Backpack is trolling or not is off-topic.

I'm sure you'll find that most people are NOT ADVOCATING NERFS in this thread with some closer inspection.

Good day.

Sat, 07/02/2011 - 20:26

#10

bushwhacker

Legacy Username

@killerabbit:A punishment

@killerabbit:

A punishment for a lazy player is a bad excuse for poorly programmed reloading. It's highly unlikely that was their intention when designing it. I was not confused about the ealier posts, he said it was a 'tradeoff' which implies one way has advantages and the other way has other advantages, that's what a tradeoff is.

I kind of agree about the lag thing, but since most of what you're doing is thrown out the window if you're lagging then it may as well take control away rather than just have you sit there defenseless. I recognize your point though, I just don't know what else can be done.

I think everyone misread what I said about freeze, yes my teammates often suck, but freeze itself gets broken too often while fighting even if everyone is being cautious. This happens while I'm playing solo, so it isn't entirely a team problem.

I'm glad you agree about Devilites, I just got slaughtered by a group of devilites after easily beating 2 arenas, there is simply no good way to go about fighting them, a challenge isn't even in the question.

@Backpack:

I know this might be a bit rude, but I'm not here to debate this, these are problems that I've spoken with other players about and they agree. I never once said to remove challenge from the game, but some things simply don't work logically.

There are plenty of difficult things I've encountered that I'm not mentioning.

Devilites are a problem, they can raise their weapon and hit you in less than half the time you realize you should raise your shield, they hit far too often and too easily.

@CorianWornen:

This game must have been horrendously hard if you consider what it is like now to be 'nurfed to horrid levels'.

As I said before, there are numerous difficult things that I'm not mentioning because that's all they are, difficult, not totally unfair.

By the way, I think you'll find people to be more agreeable when you don't blatantly insult them when they're trying to make a point.

My problem with devilites isn't so much that "they're too hard" but is one can't defend against their attack with human reflexes, it simply can't be done. Against a group of devilites, one almost always comes out with a nice bit of damage. Against other enemies, it may be difficult but there are at least ways to avoid getting beaten repeatedly.

Sat, 07/02/2011 - 20:48

#11

Sunless

but is one can't defend

but is one can't defend against their attack with human reflexes

Complaint invalidated.

Sun, 07/03/2011 - 06:16

#12

mejezfeld

Legacy Username

I'm gonna have to make an appointment

I'm gonna have to make an appointment with CorianWomen so that I may learn from them the 1337 gaming skillz that will apparently help me adequately deal with a poor connection with a overloaded server several oceans away from my house that is provided by an incompetent numbskull of an ISP who is further hampered by the way my local power company deals with it's massive circular debt, union, and power theft issues.

I'm all with OP on the lag issues but not with autopiloting my way through them. Perhaps have damage taken during lag slightly damped or somehow make enemies suffer issues similar to those faced by players and have them spaz around while trying to get away or have them miss their target occasionally because of a simulated poor aim.

Sun, 07/03/2011 - 06:52

#13

Koffin-Kat

It actualy would be nice if

It actualy would be nice if the Freeze effect could take a small amount of damage before breaking.

Sun, 07/03/2011 - 15:20

#14

Xevind

Legacy Username

I find the easiest way to

I find the easiest way to deal with devilites is to: Firstly bring a weapon with pierce damage like the flourish or the snarble barb, and secondly keep your shield up and get as close to them as possible. Then drop your shield and then raise it back up quickly. Sometimes this makes the devilites go for an attack. Once the projectile bounces off your shield, kill them. Rinse and repeat until you clear the room.

Sun, 07/03/2011 - 17:56

#15

Nodocchi

@Bushwacker The thing about

@Bushwacker
The thing about the gun is a tradeoff, if you just spam attack you will get about the same damage output as if you timed the attacks to skip the reload. At the same time, it is also much easier to just spam attack rather than time your attacks so usually you are looking at better damage output if you just spam. Of course timing your attacks gives you more chances to block.

Basically:
Shoot and Reload:
Advantages:
Attacks faster and thus more damage output
Disadvantages:
Can't shield

Shoot and wait to skip reload:
Advantages:
Can Shield
Disadvantages:
Usually means attacking slower unless you got the timing down perfectly.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 21:27

#16

bushwhacker

Legacy Username

There is no trade-off, if you

There is no trade-off, if you do it correctly, especially with weapons that shoot more than twice per clip, you shoot as fast as you would have if you spammed it.

Lazy playing is NOT a trade-off, I don't understand how this is an argument.

Also, yes, you cannot block with human reflexes unless you are already blocking, already attacking or your finger is on the way to the block button. The time between them raising something to throw and then throwing it at you at a medium distance or less is less than the time someone could recognize the attack and then move his finger and press the button.

If you're far enough away, already blocking or there is only one devilite and you're already attacking it then you could defend but otherwise you aren't going to successfully defend yourself.

"It actualy would be nice if the Freeze effect could take a small amount of damage before breaking."

That's a pretty good idea, it makes sense to me.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 00:39

#17

Ightex

You're not really getting the

You're not really getting the gun argument. Its basically on the principle of "Shoot spamming is too easy." And currently, it is. Gunners can virtually take no damage from a hoard, kiting and shooting. They may be slow, but certain higher-level alchemers come with ricocheting bullets that hit more than one mob, cutting the damage time in half.

Reloading gives a degree of control, of deterring a player to just wantonly shooting bullets like a berserk turret by making them defenseless in the second or two it takes them to reload, minimizing spam. The shoot-pause-shoot method would actually require people to time their shots to avoid this, requiring a little more focus and significantly lowering the role of guns to little more than sidearms rather than main damage dealing weapons.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:24

#18

bushwhacker

Legacy Username

But that's just it, timing

But that's just it, timing your shots and not reloading is the only viable method of using guns. If you spam shots, you get slowed more and you can't shield and you don't shoot much faster, if at all.

There's no trade-off, spamming and reloading gives you pretty much nothing in return for being slower and more vulnerable. Timing and not reloading doesn't really make you shoot slower, because the pause time is less than the reload time and you aren't slowed and unable to shield.

I don't really know what else to say, that's just how it is and it should be fixed.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 16:06

#19

Orangeo

Frozen enemies shouldn't

Frozen enemies shouldn't unfreeze if hit. Now the only useful ice item it the shivermist, that will refreeze enemies it they are in range. But It's easy to keep litchens away from eachother. Just hit sheild over and over to bump them away. Of course, I've killd many freind's by flinging a steamy red litchen right into their face on accident.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 18:27

#20

Nodocchi

@Bushwhacker You say it as if

@Bushwhacker
You say it as if shooting without reloading is just as easy as spamming shots. While that may be true for the Antigua lines it is not for any others. Reloading is a punishment, that is why when people don't reload.

Let us compare this to something similar, shield cancelling is pretty much superior in every way to waiting out the animation. By your reasoning that would make waiting out the animation obsolete and OOO should make waiting out the animation give players some sort of bonus to encourage players to wait it out. But that wouldn't make any sense because shield cancelling is supposed to be a superior method of swordfighting just like shooting without reloading is a superior method of gunplay.

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 00:53

#21

sl344

Legacy Username

All of these are HORRIBLE

All of these are HORRIBLE points. Devilites are only moderatly hard, even for people like me who suffer sever lag (china ftl). Shooting all your bullets then reloading with gulsinger armor does more damage than shoot wait shoot wait.Lichen combinding is very easy to prevent, and learn to get used to lag spikes.

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 11:23

#22

bushwhacker

Legacy Username

With no shadow armor,

With no shadow armor, devilites actually hit pretty hard, with numerous devilities in addition to other enemy types, you're guaranteed to get banged up, their attacks are fast and sudden and accurate.

Shooting like an idiot does NOT make you shoot faster, as I said before reloading takes MORE time than pausing, if done correctly.

Lichen combining is not easy to prevent unless they are already 20 feet away from each other, if they're much closer it's pretty much impossible, I don't know why people are arguing with me about something as obvious as this.

You don't 'get used' to lag spikes, you get hit and/or die, if you think my idea is wrong, say so and give reasons, don't try to shoot down everything I say out of spite.

@xiax: I completely agree shooting without reloading is better, what I'm saying is that reloading doesn't offer any advantage at all, making it pretty pointless.

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A Few Things that Got My Attention