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Monster Balancing

19 replies [Last post]
Mon, 07/04/2011 - 15:51
Draycos's picture
Draycos

It had to be done.

Right, so, to get to the point, this is a thread stating what aspects of monsters are broken, imbalanced, buggy, et cetera. This'll go in a list, just naming the monster and what exactly is so imbalanced about them.

Mecha Knights (tier 2, 3)- These guys are fairly well designed, but there's two main things wrong with them. When they block, they can be knocked around from behind, or sometimes with piercing projectiles like Avenger blades. But, when they move, their shield doesn't move with them- that forms a random projectile/player blocking wall where they USED to be. Sense made? Zero.

As for the other thing... Their charged attacks are simply too powerful (EDIT: Tier 3 is meant to be difficult and with little room for error, so this only applies to tier 2). They deal insane amounts of damage, and even with a Vog set, it deals at least half of my health even with a vitapod. Trying to shield will only give you a broken shield. The statuses they dish out additionally are always major, like 12-second Shock. It's predictable, sure, but they run after you much more accurately than normal and at the same speed. When in a group, even when you see it coming, it's basically spelling death, especially considering the previously mentioned bug. Moving on...

Retrodes (tier 2)- Their laser-explosions deal way too much damage, for a mob commonly found in narrow or confined areas, and in large groups. It has high range, they fire quickly, and they deal statuses; why do they have to do so much damage? (EDIT: Doesn't apply to tier 3 because it's meant to be difficult.)

Scuttlebots- Easier than the pre-buffed Jellies. All you have to do is attack them, even with a piercing weapon, and they stop attacking. They move slowly. They deal low damage. They have low range. Fighting them is a pinata party. Give them some other move, something unique, buff their range, make them flinch less or not at all... I don't know.

Gremlin Thwackers (tier 3)- They have no chargeup at all for their spin attack, nothing to telegraph it with, and it deals heavy damage and knockback, sometimes stunning you. Why would you give a monster something so imbalanced, ever? Seriously. At least with Mecha Knights, you see it coming. When they attack twice in a row, they damage you slightly earlier with the second slash than the animation shows. They also have no warning with their throwing attack, except for a split second.

Gremlin Demos- Their bombs can hurt you through walls, and they drop bombs on occasion when hit no matter WHAT it is. Using a weapon like a Shivermist Buster causes them to drop bomb after bomb after bomb, because of the many hits. It really should be based on damage dealt, not the amount of hits...

Gremlin Menders (tier 3)- They can shield instantly, and it heals them. They can knock you back, and in the same process, heal themselves and anything around them. They can attack you with their staff instantly. They can shoot ember bolts at you instantly. They can spawn as many AoE healzones as much as they want wherever they want, healing for a massive sum for how quick they get put up and how often the healing works. They can revive other menders. Hiding behind enemy mobs is fine, but hiding in spikes, or brambles, or status traps... NO. Just no. Why are they so overpowered? Wings are perfectly fine with how much they heal; why is it so different? PLEASE nerf menders, and not buff Wings. (EDIT: While tier 3 is supposed to be difficult, they're completely overpowered compared to Wings, and get so many new, relatively cheap attacks in tier 3)

Devilites- They only flinch due to strong attacks, at the end of combos, or during attacks... and they attack faster than swordsmen are able to counter. And for gunners? They just dodge and move slightly closer with every bullet shot. Cheap. Really doesn't fit in early tiers, maybe it does in tier 3...

Pit Bosses- If they're in the death animation, and they lose their grunts, they magically revive as Devilites anyways.

Greavers- Their status mist hits through walls. Slightly more range than it seems on their melee attacks.

Phantoms- The third hit in their three-hit combo hits much farther ahead than their swords actually are.

Vanaduke- In the third and final phases, lava blocks spawn. And they can spawn ON you. Slag Guards can be avoided by leaving some Skellies alive.

Skellies- In some spots, like corners, you can shove them into them and run away. They turn north and try to move there. Makes avoiding Slag Guards spawning a cakewalk, really. When they leap towards you, there are times where they grab midair and do no damage to you while still immobilizing you, and other times where they immobilize you and use their regular attack twice in quick succession instead. Sometimes when you shove them the instant they 'grab' you, they act like nothing happened and start walking back towards you, even though your character acts like you were grabbed.

Kats- They attack slightly farther with their bite than actually shown. If you're even skimming the bite's special effect, you get hit.

Wolvers (tier 3)- Alphas deal way too much damage. Even with a piercing/normal shield, two hits and it's broken. The animation for a flinching Alpha is very quick an easily overlooked, so you don't really know when they flinch. Alphas and normal Wolvers can teleport instantly while being attacked, and turn while attacking and teleporting. Meaning, they can start attacking, teleport behind you randomly (even without firing any projectiles) and they continue the attack.

Jellies (tier 2, 3)- Their ranged spike attack continues even after they flinch or are defeated.

Lumbers- They can knock you back, but not hurt you, through walls.

EDIT: Rocket Puppies (can't believe i forgot them!)- They deal extremely high damage for how fast they fire, and the missles bounce off harmlessly off of some obstacles. Unlike normal explosions from explosive jellies and blocks, they cause fire for some reason, and despite that, they're in normal arenas instead of fire arenas.

And that concludes this. Any feedback or things to add would be appreciated.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 16:08
#1
Nodocchi's picture
Nodocchi
A lot of what you mentioned

A lot of what you mentioned only applies to tier 3 which was meant to be difficult. Just because you're having trouble doesn't make it imbalanced.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 16:19
#2
Draycos's picture
Draycos
Difficulty isn't difficulty

Difficulty isn't difficulty when enemies attack instantly or are bugged, glitchy, etc, or have something about them that drastically sets them apart from other enemies.

I don't have trouble, and I run solo through tier 3, usually beating danger rooms with no energy revives. I'm not saying this because I'm bad at the game, lol. :P

EDIT: Oh, i get it, you mean damage being high. Yeah, I understand that for tier 3, really should edit the list a bit...

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 16:19
#3
Hova's picture
Hova
Looks perfect to me.

I agree with everything on this thread.
But, what would you think of adding Trojans pinning you in a corner in Arena's? It can be almost impossible to shield bump out of there. Just a thought.

EDIT:
Come to think of it, this might just be lousy playing if you get pinned in a corner, hmm.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 16:21
#4
Draycos's picture
Draycos
Well, if you have a 5*

Well, if you have a 5* shield, you can shove them a tad. If you're in a corner, that means you'll have enough space after shoving them to move. Sad bit is, is that you NEED a 5* shield to shove them... but, i guess it's logical, they are hulking monstrosities compared to most other enemies.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 16:26
#5
Hova's picture
Hova
I suppose so...

One thing I've never really checked though, is, can you shield bump if your shield is broken? Cause if you can't...then there really is no way to get out of corner pinned by a Trojan, that is unless, you just take the damage and hope that your shield regenerates a tiny bit so you can bump out of there...

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 16:29
#6
Koffin-Kat's picture
Koffin-Kat
" Lichen- Any damage you deal

" Lichen- Any damage you deal before they join up is removed, as in, they get their health back as the new joined form. "

I'm not an expert nor am I a skilled player, but personally, I believe this is exactly how it is supposed to be. Also I find it pretty fine. They formed a new form of life (huh), so they now have full HP again.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 16:29
#7
Draycos's picture
Draycos
I guess you're right, and

I guess you're right, and it'd be pretty hard to make it so damage still applied, so I guess it's not that bad. And slimes typically have high health, so I guess that it's fitting, when I think about it.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 17:26
#8
Nitez's picture
Nitez
Shield Bump

you CAN shield bump while your shield is down just an FYI.
lol leave the scuttles alone they're meant to be pinatas.
Though T3 Gremlins are just purely painful.
Also everybody hates Rocket Pups.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 18:03
#9
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
Gremlins need to be more

Gremlins need to be more balanced, but if you don't like them, just buy some valkyrie armor and a peircing weapon, that'll do it. Litchens should get more HP from combinding, this gives you a reason to keep them from morphing. If one x10 litchen was as powerful as 10 seperate litchens, why keep them from growing? Wolvers need to have less foggy effect when they teleport, I understand T3 should be difficult but I need to SEE. I'd be cool with rocket puppies if i could shoot down their missiles. Everything else you put that involves an attack continuing after the monster is defeated, or an attack having more range than it appeares, is also fine, but sometimes you still gotta suck it up man.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 18:05
#10
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
And what you said about the

And what you said about the thwackers is good.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 18:17
#11
Koffin-Kat's picture
Koffin-Kat
Rocket Puppis don't seem like

Rocket Puppis don't seem like THAT great danger in T1 (cannot judge the T2, though, as I blah blah as I said before in some other thread).
In T1, they are realy quite easy to handle even in small groups if you think about what you are doing.

But yeah, I believe they are WAY harder in T2 and T3.

Mon, 07/04/2011 - 19:42
#12
Ightex
Everything could be dealt

Everything could be dealt with a bit of expertise.

The only monster I've had a hell load of time going up against is the T3 Rocket Puppies. T1 and T2, they are relatively useless- they're rockets are slow and easy to avoid. T3 however, they are FAR more accurate with their homing ability and deal pretty big damage. The best way to deal with them I've figured so far is to actually run up point blank to them, shield when they release a missile, and hack away. You HAVE to be close since the interval between you and the missle connecting doesn't give you much time to deal with the puppy before it prepares to release another missle.

Now, multiple Rocket Puppies? A nightmare. The bullet ones are a bit easier to deal with- at least those aren't homing.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 06:10
#13
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
Would really be fun to shoot

Would really be fun to shoot down the missiles >_>
Then people won't always just get a gran faust and divine avenger for levels, becuase they do way more damage than guns, even with gunslinger armor's.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 07:52
#14
AmyAnnoying
Legacy Username
I would really like to see t3

I would really like to see t3 gun puppies have less of an aggro range. The constant barrage of missiles from off screen in a twisty, maze-like area makes progressing through some t3 areas impossible for me.

Gremlins have a specific warning chuckle before they throw their weapon at you.

Alpha wolvers are fine, they give you plenty of time to avoid the triple strike and are vulnerable to counterattack afterward. The primary problem with them is that they will occasionally teleport on top of you mid attack, which is impossible to avoid damage since it breaks shields. Regular wolvers can also do this on t3.

Greavers are powerful to the point where the best way to fight them is to never go into a t3 fiend gate. I have a tactic to survive them (rapier spam so they can't finish an attack), but the risk of these enemies is just so high. One mistake often gets you into a situation you cannot escape from.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 09:55
#15
Dasparian
Also:

Retrodes and Skellies share the same attack animations.

Skelly melee range nerfed, Retrode melee range untouched.

Consistency please?

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 14:45
#16
Beginning's picture
Beginning
Lumbers

Your not really balancing but I'll add this:

In Tier 2 when Lumbers attack their range should stretch once kind of like a Brandish 3* charge attack.

In Tier 3 when Lumbers attack their range should stretch twice kind of like a Brandish 4* charge attack.

Notes: This attack should be alternative. And the explosion should deal less damage than the Lumber's Arm attack. The explosion should only inflict 1 status (I think it should be Stun). I do not think the type of should change.

Tue, 07/05/2011 - 15:28
#17
Draycos's picture
Draycos
@ AmyAnnoying The thing with

@ AmyAnnoying

The thing with the warning chuckle is, even if it's there, you only have about half a second before you get stunned by a random hammer to the face. The startup animation is the same as their normal attacks.

Alpha Wolvers' damage would be fine and not a problem if they fixed the teleporting-while-attacking stuff. Really not fair, since it seems to be random.

Greavers are more or less fine; if you keep moving and attack only with quick weapons that still have wide range, they can't really do much-most of the damage starts from getting hit by the status mist.

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 03:08
#18
Shue-Donnym's picture
Shue-Donnym
Gremlin Demos

Curse+High bomb drop rate=Dead demo.
@drlequack
I heard somewhere you CAN shoot down rockets.
@hova
Trojans cornering you? They get knocked back by projectiles. No excuse now.

Wed, 07/06/2011 - 08:28
#19
Fraxur's picture
Fraxur
Mecha Knights: 1st issue - I

Mecha Knights: 1st issue - I never saw this problem before so I can't judge, but from the sound of it, it is weird. 2nd issue - What Shield are you using? If you are using a Piercing or Shadow Shield of course they'd break under their Elemental attack.

Retrode: Totally Agree.

Scuttlebots: Agree because they are very weak and harmless.

Gremlin Thwackers: Judging from a T2 danger room, They are annoying. But aren't they meant to be that hard?

Gremlin Demo: You mean the solid walls or the short walls? If it's solid walls that's weird, if it's the short walls then it's meant to be like that.

Gremlin Menders: Judging from the same T2 danger room, They are annoying. But at this one I have to agree with you, they are just too annoying and hard. It's one bubble shield (or whatever you call it) and they are back to full health.

Devilites - Agree. But using the Magnus line will help you hit them.

Pit Boss - I don't find that too annoying.

Greavers - Depends on the kind of wall.

Phantom - Never experienced that so can't say anything.

Vanaduke - Never fought him so can't say anything.

Skellies - Same.

Kats - Agree.

Wolvers - Agree.

Jellies - I find this wierd too. They shouldn't be able to raise a spike that was about to raised when they die. Also something I find annoying is that when JK is already bursting they still attack. Just because of that, it turned to 1 death from 0 death. They also don't drop anything if JK is killed and they are not.

Lumbers - Just as long it doesn't do me any damage I don't care.

Rocket Puppy - Agree

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