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Increased Health =/= Increased Survivability?

17 replies [Last post]
Sun, 02/27/2011 - 23:36
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox

This is part of a series of threads I'm going to be making on how and where Three Rings can improve this game before launch.

One of my other threads, here, is about how they can create better equipment balance and more challenging battles and environments through the use of universal equipment standards.

Now for the current topic:

Scaling and why it needs to change

When you start the game, you have five health. You have about forty armour. You deal 13 damage on average with your sword.
Monsters take 7~10 hits to kill you.
The game isn't even remotely challenging in the slightest.
It's actually quite boring.

In Tier 3, you start with twelve health. You have well over 200 (useless) armour. You deal damage in the hundreds.
Monsters can one shot you until you get a Vitapod.
It takes over 20 Health to survive more than one hit from them.
It takes much longer to kill them.
The environments are exceedingly difficult to navigate and are often incredibly hazardous.
The monsters have better AI and attack patterns, and almost always inflict a status effect on hit.
The game goes from being easy to being stupidly difficult in one step.

And here I was thinking we upgraded our armour to scale up with the monsters in the given Tier, when actually you spend all that time and effort just to pay more when you die.
How foolish of me to think otherwise.

When you start putting respawning hearts inside monster rooms to give players a chance, you need to think about either buffing the players, or nerfing the monsters.
That's all I can say.

This issue has existed since you added the new content Tiering system and yet nothing has been done to balance it out fairer. This isn't even something that hasn't been brought to people's attention before, it's just seemingly being ignored.

I understand that you want the game to be challenging in party play.
But really all you've succeeded in doing is rewarding abusive solo play.
All people do is run around either spamming sword charge attacks, spamming guns or dropping napalm bombs everywhere like it's 'Nam.

You'd think if you were going to be charging people five times as much to resurrect in Tier 3, that it would be a lot less masochistic to even bother paying the CE if you do die.
But, just like everything else, that's not the case here.

You might as well turn Tier 3 into Contra Tier and charge everybody 25c to continue playing after they die.
Because the only people that aren't going to be paying you to die have probably played through and beaten the content there using these tactics.

Which are apparently, legitimate tactics, but the weapons that they're often abused by quickly get horrendously nerfed every time a balance patch comes around.

You need to fix this, you need to sit down, think about hard numbers for scaling and just fix the game.
Because only a select few people are getting anything out of the game as it is and they're destroying the CE market.
If more people could make the money to buy CE when it's at a fair price, inflation wouldn't be so bad that the same players don't just keep exchanging CE between each other.

That's my take on the whole thing, anyway.
Post your own opinion, together we might be able to find something that will work.

Mon, 02/28/2011 - 02:20
#1
Cactuscat's picture
Cactuscat
I'd agree I feel its a cheap

I'd agree I feel its a cheap tactic and unfair how much damage monsters in Tier 3 do. It's no fun to die in just a single hit or two. I understand that you want it to be about skill, and good players should be able to avoid most attacks. However, in fighting rooms with numerous enemies you are bound to take a hit by a flying bullet or straying too close to an enemy - and to be able to survive so few hits is just bothersome, making a single mistake can pretty much ruin you.

Of course, I recently got an Ash of Agni, and things have become so much easier - but that isn't saying the game is good to go, that is just showing an imbalance between weapons.

Not sure if I'm being very clear, but I'm agreeing with you Shoebox that something needs to be changed. Making a mistake shouldn't be so costly and hopefully we can allow other weapons a chance to be used in later tiers. As it stands, trying to use slow swords against the masses is just begging for you to get wrecked.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 04:21
#2
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox
Apparently, due to recent

Apparently, due to recent updates, the game has become more ridiculous since I posted this thread.

So, please post any insight you may have into the new patch, as I haven't bothered to even try and play it.
Any areas in particular the could use a change as well, besides, you know, the whole game.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 08:26
#3
AndroidHub
Legacy Username
Guns and piercing damage

I primarily use guns, and let me tell you, it just doesn't work after this patch, using only guns is not possible with this new patch. Piercing damage, the most common type of damage from guns (antigua series, magnus, needle series) is only useful against beasts and fiends now, it does severely reduced damage against every other type of monster. The Autogun series now only gets one clip, so if you fire the gun, you WILL stand there for 3 seconds doing the reload animation (and probably get hit by the monster you didn't kill with the one clip). The prismatech alchemer, got it's only reason for existing take away with it's damage bonus vs undead gone. And of course the blasters are just as bad as ever, and are still never worth taking.

So long story short, I hope you like using swords and only swords.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 10:06
#4
Ready's picture
Ready
I concur guns seem terrible,

I concur guns seem terrible, didn't investigate as much as AndroidHub but I went into one of the 'ice' tier 2 levels with my 5* Volcanic Pepperbox expecting to tear it up and was sadly disappointed. The one clip then reload is rough, particularly since you can't move while reloading. The Dread Venom Striker was much more useful, though still suffers from it's previous nerfing w regards to interrupt. I don't know if it is in the plans but I continue to expect that 'fire' weapons to do better against 'ice' monsters due to the intrinsics there, but that doesn't seem to be a case.

I guess my overall impression is: New monsters and level themes are good fun, doing the first level of tier 2 with 5* gear and not dominating at all was very annoying - and I don't think it is just based on 'what I expect' having played before. I think having the best gear in the game, gear destined for running the core, SHOULD let you have a fairly easy time of it in tier 2. Maybe it's all in how the scaling works, or doesn't, but it seems like it's just a pain the ass thus far. I'm kind of with Shoebox at this point and will personally probably only play a little with mist energy until there is another patch to address some of these issues.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 10:10
#5
Amazigh
Legacy Username
Guns = Useless

I have never really found the need to use my sword.
But with this update I can hardly kill anything with my gun. [I'm using a Strike Needle]
most enemies are resistant to piercing damage and take 6 or so per shot while the few that aren't resistant take about 26 per shot
And my sword [Arc Razor] deals 60-80 damage per hit
this really shows how USELESS guns have become compared to swords with this update.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 11:27
#6
Sobanthered
Yep, guns have become pretty

Yep, guns have become pretty useless. I JUST upgraded to Volcanic Pepperbox before this, and now I can't use it. Most enemies dodge the first volley, but I can't use my second. Lumber can rip me apart from a distance now because I can't fire one volley and retreat. I can't use it in the arena anymore because that reload time will get me killed. The only thing it's useful for is killing puppies, but that's just stupid. I might as well go all bombs until they realize so many people are using Ash of Agni and decide to cut its attack power by half. I guess I could always switch out to my brand new, 5*, awesome Wild Hunting Bla- oh wait.

I love the game, but this newest "rebalance" has just thrown everything out. It takes forever to kill a monster that can kill you in one hit. Except it's not just one monster, it's several at once. That wouldn't be a problem if my weapons did anything, my armor did anything, my health meant anything, and monsters were weaker than players (as they should be - come on now).

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:31
#7
Subhadra
Legacy Username
you can forget the ash of

you can forget the ash of agni, it's useless too now, as the shivermist buster is, oh wait, all weapons are useless now actually....swords are the most powerfull, but still well nerfed.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:35
#8
Lupus
Legacy Username
Dying is now encouraged so

Dying is now encouraged so more CE will be used. Well, back to the Proto Gun & Sword.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 20:36
#9
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox
Well, I'm not proud to say

Well, I'm not proud to say this, but my suspicions were correct.
Normal damage is pretty much, the only damage worth having.
Not that nick didn't confirm it a long time ago by saying it outright (can't find the thread).
But really, I have to ask, for the sake of balance.
Why you thought it was a good idea?

I don't even know what they're trying to do with this game anymore.
It's good to see progress but just about every update this game has undergone has been changed by a subsequent patch.

Why even bother?
What are you trying to achieve by wasting your own time implementing flawed systems?

It makes no sense.
To anyone.

Please, somebody, enlighten me.
Is this another one of those patches that's only half a patch and the other half gets implemented when it's too late?
Or one of those patches where you're going to make an update in a weeks time that makes the whole thing redundant?

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 20:41
#10
Pupu
Legacy Username
No~

I like the game hard, thank you very much.

Also, useless weapons are probably due to enemies resistances, normal damage might be the best bet for a while until we get more sorted gates.

Also: Lol closed beta, get used to changes already.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 22:34
#11
Sobanthered
@Pupu There's a difference

@Pupu

There's a difference between challenging and stupid. Making enemies have good AI and present a threat is challenging, making weapons, armor, and health virtually useless while buffing monsters to take 10+ hits to kill and to be able to kill you in two hits with the best equipment in the game is stupid.

Tue, 03/01/2011 - 22:47
#12
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox
It's an issue with scaling. I

It's an issue with scaling.
I have no problem with the game being difficult, I just have a problem with it being poorly executed.

I love challenging games.
I beat Super Probotector: Alien Rebels (the PAL version of Contra 3) on Hard when I was seven years old.

I just don't see the point in making a game so poorly paced that you have to stick respawning health inside a monster filled room just to make it even remotely fair.

Also: Providing input on changes is how we help to improve the game.
Get used to it.

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 16:51
#13
Pupu
Legacy Username
Hm

@Kii
But my enemies take 4-5 hits to kill and hit me for 1/4 of health tops.
And some I can just kite with bombs so they are no threat at all.

And if you have a good party, T3 is way easier.
I never had any problem with Citadel after I got appropriate gear for it.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 16:03
#14
Autofire's picture
Autofire
I think it's just getting harder

Well, it IS a closed beta, so, you'll have lot's of changes. Things will be imbalanced for a while, till they get a chance to repair the imbalances. I do agree, the 1 clip machine gun is quite wimpy, along with less damage with it. If you don't like them, use bombs or alchemer guns.

But then again, you should have weaker guns, cause the main weapon of the game is swords. So, they want to encourage this. Before, everybody only used their guns because of the ease it added to the game. And crap equips encourage team work, which this game is also about.

I mean, seriously, who in the world would face hordes of zombies, tons(weight tons) of jelly, and armies of gremlins alone? I always go with my brother, or someone else, when adventuring in a dangerous area.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 17:11
#15
Grex4
Legacy Username
But then again, you should

But then again, you should have weaker guns, cause the main weapon of the game is swords. So, they want to encourage this.

What?

Dying is now encouraged so more CE will be used. Well, back to the Proto Gun & Sword.

I totally agree with that, poor scaling and worthless armor make us die more often, so we spend money on CE.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 22:15
#16
Cactuscat's picture
Cactuscat
I'm a bit upset at how weak

I'm a bit upset at how weak shields become in T3. I'm currently using a 5* Ancient Plate Shield (High Normal/Piercing) at level 8 heat, and yet, at depth 22, two hits from a devilite broke it. I figure if we are going to take so much damage from a single hit, at least our shields should be able to withstand a decent amount...

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:18
#17
Providence
Legacy Username
Give every balance fix a couple of days to iron itself out

I don't think the developers are making us die more on purpose, so we need to buy more CE. If they were doing that, rest assured that I'd use up my free CE at launch and then never come back. HOWEVER, I think we should not attribute to malice what can be attributed to being overworked--it's hard to balance a game with so many moving parts.

The best thing we can do now is just give feedback; I honestly don't expect any balance issues to be resolved very quickly. Once the game is officially released, I don't expect any balance issues to be resolved quickly. That's just part of the nature of games like this, with so many different play styles.

For example:
I've always been a melee fighter, so I've always used swords, but I do agree that guns are no longer useful in the ways I used to use them. I chose the "wrong" armor/helm tree to follow, so I CANNOT T2 on my own...I think player defense needs to be reworked before player damage. Scaling doesn't seem to be super well developed yet, but I do think that it is a good idea. We just need to give it some time and feedback.

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