Spiral Knights - Discourage Crafting Slaves, possible methods of reducing crafting slave profit, improving early crafting economy.

Discourage Crafting Slaves, possible methods of reducing crafting slave profit, improving early crafting economy.

14 replies [Last post]

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 13:02

Prezombie

Legacy Username

The poor crafting slaves used to make a quick extra profit by a purchased separate account, with all the mist energy dumped into 2* recipes, is a severe dampener on the 2* economy, which you can easily see by realizing any normal player would want to make at least close to 3000cr from 50 energy, and 2* items which cost that much to craft plus 400 cr and materials go for less than than on the market easily. They want to make more profit easily, and rather than using the seperate account for more gate runs, which needs another set of armor, they dump it into 2* crafting, the mist energy converting quickly into around 2-4k a day.

What this causes is a general discouragement for others to even bother with crafting, usually only buying recipes of higher up the chain. I personally find this severely against the spirit of the game, and have come up with two alternate ways to fix this.

The first way, my personal favorite, would be to alter crafting so that ME cannot be used for it. remove Energy costs for 0-2 star equipment, maybe bump up the crown cost a bit, depending on what you consider the profit line for a 2* item should be. Optionally, to prevent the AH from flooding, put a daily use limit on crafting, requiring a token CE payment if you make more than 3-5 <2* things a day. The crafting slaves become Gaterunner alts, if they do anything, and crown fountains slow down a bit. New players are happy with being able to justify crafting for themselves (and getting UV is now a bonus, not a lottery you buy tickets for), veterans get to branch to new equipment, encouraging more real CE sinking crafting, rather than the shallow <100 energy stuff that is exclusively profitable for slavedrivers.

The middle ground of allowing people to use Mist, but removing energy cost from 0-2* still forces new advanced craftings to delay someone who prefers mist play, and shifts slave labor devaluing to the 3* equipment, where it might be less obvious, but it would still happen. The other middle ground of removing mist energy, but keeping crafting cost the way it is, would completely cure slave labor, but with the result of significantly more begging from newbies, and overall, more discouraged beginners. This could be mitigated with crafting coupons, but I doubt it would help much.

Additionally, this removes the idle time a player who's pedantic about using mist energy whenever possible from filling to the brim before making a 3+* item to reduce the real cost. The cost is fixed, and making it doesn't cut off mist playing that instant.

Alternately, you could give everyone a crafting ration, a third energy tank that fills to 50 over 22 hours, and can only be used for crafting. I dislike this option, it's a much more obvious rule patch, and only mitigates the slave labour devaluing items.

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 14:24

Grittle

OBJECTION

its a free market, DEAL WITH IT

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 20:36

Senshi

Legacy Username

Endorsement

Three rings members, and I believe nick in particular unless my memory is faulty, have said that creating encouragement for alt-abuse is something they want to avoid (only stated more diplomatically and not calling it 'abuse' or 'cheating' or any other pejorative term... )
I think the OP did a tremendous job of summarizing the problem and has some very smart suggestions for fixing it. (I'd turned it over in my mind but came up with nothing near as good, as the whole crafting-alt thing bugs me a little.)

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 21:18

Twiddle

The best way I can think of

The best solution I can think of would be to have all alchemy machines in haven bind equipment to the maker. In order to make unbound equipment you have to run to moorcroft or emberlight. Further, I would make sure you have to be be in the party from the clockwork terminal to the subtown in order to make unbound equipment. If you get invited to a party beyond the clockwork terminal then the machines in moorcroft and emberlight will bind the equipment to you as well.

You would also need an afk detection system that boots people who have gone afk for more than a few minutes to prevent people from running to a subtown and afking down there.

Fri, 07/15/2011 - 23:45

Prezombie

Legacy Username

Dogbob: You're missing an

Dogbob: You're missing an important fact with your rebuttal: It's not a free market, it's an MMO market. In a free market, money is earned from other people who already have money. In an MMO market, money is earned from the mint. In a free market, spending money on the vendor at a fruit stand gives the vendor money which is then used in turn to pay for things the vendor needs. In an MMO market, spending money on the vendor makes the money literally vanish, and that's just the beginning. This market is carefully controlled by the amount that gets spawned by the system.

Sat, 07/16/2011 - 01:54

Captain-Teemo

For the balance of cr : ce

For the balance of cr : ce economy I feel it is in the best interest for crafting slaves to continue exactly as they are.

Why?

Because they are not actually generating more cr in the economy.

When diving the game is generating cr, creating it out of no where. This causes inflation, making cr worth less.

By slave crafting they are trading mist energy for cr already in existence, thus countering inflation and keeping the cr : ce ratio down.

So if you want the cr price of ce on the market to stay low (like I do), support your local slave crafter!

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 03:27

Twiddle

@Shosuko

Slave crafting =/= crown sink. A crown sink would permanently remove crowns from the economy. But slave crafters send crowns to the main account. The main account will use those crowns to buy CE and other things (thus raising the price of CE and some items found at the auction house.) So slave crafting doesn't help inflation at all. Instead it redistributes wealth among the playerbase.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 03:32

Captain-Teemo

I never said it was a "crown

I never said it was a "crown sink" claiming it removed crowns from the economy.

I stated accurately that it does not CREATE crowns, thus it slows inflation and keeps the cr : ce market lower.

If I were to take my 100 energy I crafted 2x 2* items with, and instead dove the clockworks generating that same amount of crowns, I'd have inflated the amount of cr in the world by that value. Instead I dump the energy, put items on the ah, and take the cr others have already generated.

Note that the AH does charge a pretty steep 10% fee, so while I make these statements it actually IS a cr sink. Although not as much as the UV roller is gonna be.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 03:58

Twiddle

...it slows inflation and

...it slows inflation and keeps the cr : ce market lower.

It does not because it does not remove crowns from the economy. Instead, any crowns given to the slave crafter goes to the main account and those crowns get respent. So slave crafting does not help inflation at all.

--edit--

A better way of putting it is that the owner of the slave crafter account does not grind for crowns. Instead they are creating caliburs and other things with the extra free mist energy that they are getting because it's a separate account. They then sell those items for crowns that others have obtained from the clockworks. So really what a slave crafter is not grinding for crowns. What the slave crafter is doing is exchanging free mist energy so that others can grind crowns for them.

But these crowns do not disappear. Instead they are given to the main account, and the main account buys crystal energy with that money. That action increases CE prices.

So no, slave crafting does not reduce inflation or help the cr : ce market at all, and slave crafting should be discouraged.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 08:28

Captain-Teemo

Zanoni -1) AH fee is 10%,

Zanoni -

1) AH fee is 10%, that is pretty high. I sell approx 10k a day in the ah, that is 1k a day of cr dropped from the economy. It is not a lot, but it is constant. EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION even the 100k item I sold earlier has this 10% fee. That's right - for a single item I sold on the ah, 10k cr vanished from the game.

2) If I take my mist, and poof it away to craft an item for another player, who takes their mist, and poofs it away to get the cr needed to buy the item from me, what I've done is doubled the amount of mist spent to cr gained ratio.

He spends 100 mist diving to make 5-6k, I spend 100 mist crafting to take that 5-6k from him...

200 mist left the system, only 5-6k entered it, then he hands it to me, I give him equipment.

It doesn't matter if this goes back to my main account or not, it's still more mist spent without generating cr in the system, therefore it slows inflation. Further as mentioned it actually takes cr out of the system (Not a huge chunk, but 10% of every transaction... that is a very steady cr sink that almost every player in the game is contributing to)

If you insist mist crafting aids inflation you're gonna have to show some evidence, since it adds zero cr to the system, and actually takes 10% of all transacted cr OUT of the system...

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:23

#10

Twiddle

A person with a crafting

A person with a crafting alt does not have 100 mist. They have a paid main with 100 mist and another free account that has 100 more mist energy. The free account is the crafting alt. They might even have multiple paid accounts (thus multiple crafting alts.) So they have 200+ mist energy. The main account grinds their 5-6K, then logs off, goes onto a second "crafting alt," then uses the extra mist enegy to craft caliburs and such. This person is still earning their 5-6K grinding, they are just crafting 2* gear on the side due to a loophole in the system.

So here's what really happens:

- Person one goes on their paid main, spends 100 mist energy diving for 5-6K, then logs off
- Person one logs on their free alternate account and burns 100 more mist energy crafting items. Person 1 then puts these items up for auction at the Auction House
- Person two spends their 100 mist energy diving for 5-6K
- Person two goes to the auction house and spends that 5-6K on stuff person 1 made with their crafting alt.
- Person one logs on their crafting alt and sees that their items have sold.
- Person one sends the money from their crafting alt to their main.

In this case, 300 mist energy has been spent by two players in a 24 hour period. 10-12K was made between both of them. If the person with a crafting alt did not have their crafting alt, then person 1 would spend earn 5-6K grinding and person 2 would earn 5-6K grinding, 10-12K total. So the same amount of money is made in both cases. So crafting alts do not reduce inflation nor do they help the cr : ce situation.

It's a problem and should be fixed.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:50

#11

Orangeo

Let's backtrack a bit...

I do believe that three rings says you arent allowed to have two different username and password accounts, and mist is shared on a secondary avator on the same account as a main.
I believe I read this somewhere in the terms of service, and if it isnt there now, it should be.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 16:52

#12

Orangeo

Of course, this leaves out

Of course, this leaves out paid accounts, who three rings wouldn't dare cripple.

Sun, 07/17/2011 - 19:27

#13

Captain-Teemo

Your example of alt crafting

Your example of alt crafting is accurate, and exactly as I portrayed.

But your example of "if I didn't have a crafting alt" isn't right...

You see - before I had a crafting alt, I simply had an alt. This account was for diving when my mist ran out on my primary.

IF I did not have a crafting alt, person 1 (me) would grind 100 ce for 5-6k, then person 1 (me again) would grind another 100 mist into 5-6k, then person 2 would grind 100 mist into 5-6k... The cr on the system would have increased 15-18k, AND a player who would rather play with his mist rather than craft on it is denied his purchase.

That is how crafting alts slow inflation, 300 mist == 10-12k cr into the system with crafting alts, without it 300 mist == 15-18k. Also with crafting alts ppl who want to play on their mist are able to play on it, then use their cr on the auction house or trade chat to turn that cr into gear. This creates player economy.

Or do you think ppl would EVER craft base level gear on ce? Or do you think ppl would simply forgo playing to craft <_<

Mon, 07/18/2011 - 00:17

#14

Twiddle

You have a point, and I have a possible solution.

Hmm.. you have a point there. I thought of that today as I was doing some chores. You are correct. Having a crafting alt is better for inflation then having a grinding alt, and with T1 payments often times as large or sometimes larger than T2 payments, and since you can run T1 easily in initial equipment, having a grinding alt is very possible. But still, having a crafting alt does not help inflation. Instead crafting alts don't raise inflation as much as grinding alts do.

Anyway, my best solution would be to make it impossible for people to send items or crowns between multiple accounts on the same computer. (By account I mean login, not different characters on the same login.) I would make it a rule that doing this though a third party would result in your account getting banned. That way you cannot send items or crowns between two accounts that you control. It might mean you can't give your little brother a free caliber to get him started, but it would highly discourage crafting alts and it would discourage grinding alts because you can't send any crowns or items from your alt to your main.

It would still be possible to send crowns and items to yourself though a third party, but it you make it against the rules to do so then you run the risk of someone reporting you if you talk to the wrong person. Also, you could have two accounts and grind for crowns and gear, but I think the people who are using this method will not be interested in maintaining two separate accounts when neither account benefits the other.

Search

Discourage Crafting Slaves, possible methods of reducing crafting slave profit, improving early crafting economy.