Spiral Knights

Bombs

20 replies [Last post]

Tue, 07/19/2011 - 19:08

obsothoth

Legacy Username

We have a problem with bombs.

There is no reason to use a bomb at the 1* and 2* levels compared to a gun or a sword for a simple reason: DPS. The charge time simply does not allow low level bombs to be a viable alternative to other weapons, and they only really become useful at 4* and 5*. Some people use them for the status effects, but even that relegates them to the position of support weapon, when they really should be a viable main weapon.

So here is my suggestion: A multi-level charge system.

1) Bombs have multiple levels of charge that allows that player to control bomb blast radius. The higher the charge, the higher the radius.
2) It takes more time to build up to higher charges.
3) Bombs will deal the same damage regardless of the charge.
4) Higher tier bombs will have higher charge limits then low tier, and therefore, higher maximum radius. Of course, in addition to higher damage.

I shall now discuss what this means:
Under this system, players have the option to increase their DPS throughput to a lower crowd size as they can spam low level charges on a single monster, or allow the charges to build up to hit a larger crowd size.

This means that high tier bombs can sacrifice their insane blast radius for concentrated bombing against a single target, and lower tier bombs will be able to compete with other weapons in terms of DPS due to limited charge level and therefore low charge time. In fact, under this system you can give a normal attack to the bomb by making the normal attack produce a level 0 charge of the smallest radius blast. This could make it close to a gun at least in terms of DPS. This system would allow bomb users the flexibility to tailor their bombs to the crowd size, and should make for very engrossing tactical play.

Also, let bombers throw their bombs within a maximum range to their cursor. There's no reason those goblins can do it and not knights! Currently you lose all your charge when you get hit, and combined with high charge times at low bomb tiers, it makes bomb usage as hazardous as sword usage with less dps then guns.

Bombs need to change, at very least at lower tiers. Higher tiers could be changed too, to allow for more flexibility.

Tue, 07/19/2011 - 23:47

Madadder

a multi charge bomb isn't a

a multi charge bomb isn't a bad idea the first stage could be really fast while the next stage could be longer

no to the throwing of bombs... gremlins also have healers and OOO said they wont put in. this would be OP for chemical bombs

Wed, 07/20/2011 - 06:55

Vermilicious

Legacy Username

I agree with monkeyman135,

I agree with monkeyman135, you have a really good idea there.
Swords have the flexibility of combo attacks and charged attack, while bombs just have one type of attack. Also, since a bomb has to be charged, you will be completely vulnerable for quite a while. This makes bombs difficult to use or simple not viable in certain situations.

Wed, 07/20/2011 - 06:59

obsothoth

Legacy Username

Yeah I also felt that the

Yeah I also felt that the bomb throwing was a bit much.

However, the issue of risk can already be mitigated by introducing a low charge normal attack with small blast radius. At least bombers can now guarantee damage even under pressure.

Wed, 07/20/2011 - 18:42

Captain-Teemo

I like the idea of multi

I like the idea of multi level charge on bomb, although at 5* would we be bringing back the ridic range we had before?

Wed, 07/20/2011 - 18:58

Quasirandom

Try soloing the third arena

Try soloing the third arena of an arena level. Either you will learn how to use bombs or you will die. Or both.

Wed, 07/20/2011 - 19:04

Sunless

Try soloing the third arena

Try soloing the third arena of an arena level. Either you will learn how to use bombs or you will die.

Or, the secret third option, you will survive because you're not a terrible player.

Thu, 07/21/2011 - 00:25

obsothoth

Legacy Username

bomb radius

"I like the idea of multi level charge on bomb, although at 5* would we be bringing back the ridic range we had before?"

Under the system, the blast radius of the maximum charge on each tier would correspond to the current blast radius at each tier.

I do not know the exact numbers, but I do not think that 4*/5* bombs would be so far behind other weapons in terms of DPS at least vs bigger crowds, so they would not require buffing. If they are too strong vs very big crowds, then we could always limit the number of enemies a bomb can hit at once, or lower the amount of damage for each successive enemy hit.

The idea behind a multilevel charge is to improve the effectiveness of bombs towards single or a few targets, which makes up the bulk of the encounters when dungeoning. Bombs are very powerful against large groups, but they do not occur very often, limiting their usefulness.

I would like to state for the record that I do not think the current weapon system is broken since we can switch weapons and hence, our tactical options. We can always bring a bomb as support and a gun or sword as a main. The idea behind my suggestion is to make bombs more of a main weapon rather then a support weapon.

I see a lot of sword users and few gun users, but almost no bomb users. Those who use bombs use those no lower then tier 4. Eventually I would like to see an equal mix of all weapon types.

Fri, 07/22/2011 - 03:59

obsothoth

Legacy Username

Bump

Bump because I really want to see this in the game.

If you have nothing to add but support this idea anyway, a /signed would be good.

Fri, 07/22/2011 - 04:39

Vermilicious

Legacy Username

Another issue might be the

Another issue might be the time it takes for the bomb to go off. Always seemed a bit long to me.

Fri, 07/22/2011 - 10:39

#10

Tovvok

Legacy Username

Agreed

I'd like to see this its especially frustrating to see that it takes me 5 seconds to plant a bomb when an npc can plant 3 in that time frame

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 04:20

#11

obsothoth

Legacy Username

Thanks

Thanks for the responses guys.

I was really looking forward to playing a bomberman mmo, but it seems that I will have to wait until I get to 4/5* for that to happen. Oh, and another angle on the multicharge system occurred to me, though it's only a minor difference.

Instead of having discrete, multiple charges, we could have a continuous charge bar. The amount of charge the bar has when you depress the fire button will determine the radius of the blast. Up to a maximum charge amount of course. Besides retaining all the functionality of the multicharge system, this would easier to design and implement then a system with discrete charges, as your programmers can use interpolation to determine the blast radius instead of a switch case.

There are all sorts of gameplay mechanics we can use with charge bars, and these bars can also be applied to other weapons.

For instance, the charge bar could be used to provide feedback to the player, to tell them how much more time is left before their charge maxes out when they are charging their gun. Something like a casting bar. The power of the shot could even be modulated by the charge.
But this is about bombs, so I'll leave it at that for now.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 05:07

#12

Starlinvf

A more intuitive visual

A more intuitive visual instead of a charge bar is re-purposing the blast ring indicator. Currently it appears when the bomb is dropped and a second ring to indicate the fuse.

Instead, have the blast ring indicator expand outward as it charges up, and then when dropped have the second fuse ring shrink inward to indicate time. From there, you just scale the speed the ring expands based on max radius so charge times on 1*-5* are consistent.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 17:55

#13

obsothoth

Legacy Username

That sounds perfect

That sounds perfect actually.

Just goes to show if your game is popular enough you can get your design work done for you.

Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:33

#14

Varja

+1 count me in

Fri, 07/29/2011 - 13:04

#15

IronBrofist

Legacy Username

nope

if u ask me bombs are fine the way they are they are a strategical weapon mainly used in T3 cause in T1 and T2 its just come over here and hit this till it says uncle and i only see the chem bombs as any use u charge them while running away and set them and lead all enemies in the direction ur taking them in if u could just set them down they'd become 2 op cause every one would get the 5* blast bomb sit in a corner goin AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA BOOM BOOM BOOMM BOOM BOOM it takes the fun away and encourages nubs

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 03:43

#16

obsothoth

Legacy Username

A large blast radius would

A large blast radius would require a longer charge time, and an instant bomb would only have the smallest radius, so that should not be much of a problem.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 07:53

#17

Mohandar

So what is being suggested is that when you hold down charge, a white ring on the ground starts expanding (centered on your knight) indicating how large the blast radius will be? I very much like this idea, although I'd heard that in Beta, bombs *did* have a non-charge attack that was abusively powerful. The solution is to have the ring appear after about half a second, so you are forced to do at least a short charge.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 12:34

#18

Boolet

Legacy Username

"Try soloing the third arena

"Try soloing the third arena of an arena level. Either you will learn how to use bombs or you will die.

Or, the secret third option, you will survive because you're not a terrible player."

Totally agree with this.

I've solo'd countless T1/T2/T3 arenas solo. If you don't do the whole thing you're doing it wrong.

I've done it with pure sword, pure bomb, and pure gun. Anything works. You just have to be less terrible, really.

And honestly, after a good deal of time playing, I find that when an arena does show up, and I'm doing the third arena in T3... I generally exclusively use my gran faust to wipe out the last spawn.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:24

#19

elmotactics

Legacy Username

Although I do like the idea of a tiered charge attack for bombs, end game the bombs are already so fast (in mad bomber) that you can pretty much spam them anyway.

Take Nitronome for example. I can drop one, charge another and drop it before the first one has gone off. Making it any faster would make nitronome excessively powerful. Also, for a bomb like Radiant Sun Shards, which can under the right circumstances hit a target 8 times, would make it the most powerful weapon in the game bar none (especially on Vana).

Id say for lower star bombs that what you propose is good enough, with no change of damage, only of radius. However for 5 star bombs, I'd say that in order to keep them balanced, that instead of giving them a smaller radius, that you could instead give them less damage.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:49

#20

Ryoga124

Legacy Username

The idea of multiple charge

The idea of multiple charge levels doesn't sound bad. Like charging Megaman's/Zero's Mega Buster in a fighting game. It had different coloured flashes indicating a different strength charge after a certain amount of time.

Speaking for a 5* bomb:
Fastest charge: Radius is 1*/2* bomb
Fast charge: Radius of a 3* bomb
Slow charge: Radius of a 4* bomb
Slowest charge: Radius of what 5* chemical bombs are

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