Spiral Knights - Fix Vise's Prices

Fix Vise's Prices

25 replies [Last post]

Sat, 07/23/2011 - 03:10

worldnamer

Legacy Username

x-posted from a reply to the notice of the Merchant update (re: Punch and Vise).

I finally got around to looking at the actual costs for Vise's service and they are laughably bad. Vise's costs are as follows:

1* = 100 energy
2* = 200 energy
3* = 600 energy
4* = 1800 energy
5* = 4000 energy

Okay, first off, unbinding 1,2, and 3* items is a little silly. But at these prices, you can RE-BUILD any item you're thinking of unbinding for CHEAPER than Vise can get it to you. And not only cheaper, but stupidly cheaper. It literally takes 10 energy to craft a 1* item. Total cost for a 3* item is 250 energy - LESS THAN HALF what it would take to unbind an item with Vise.

If you were to actually build a Leviathan from scratch, you'd only pay 1450 energy (plus 8900 crowns, and materials.) But to buy a Leviathan from someone else, the cost is 5450 energy, plus materials. The prices one would have to sell bound gear at to make up for the energy cost are (at current market prices) 192,000 crowns OVER what people would have to pay for just making the item. And that's just to break even.

This is important. I could literally buy ALL the ingredients AND the recipe for a Leviathan AND the energy from the free market for building and it would be CHEAPER than using Vise.

Keep in mind, unbinding equates to "I want to sell my Azure Set so I can look at replacing it with something more awesome." Vise completely fails at this. Which would be acceptable if there was a single thing that he did accomplish, but he doesn't.

These costs are *at least* off by an order of magnitude. At 400 energy for unbinding a five star, you could safely assume people would wait until mist energy reduces the cost by a unit, so it's really 300 energy, which is about 15k. That's likely an acceptable margin for some cases - freeing up items to sell now that you've outgrown them, or trading items among guild members. Of course, this presumes that the recent lull in energy markets is permanent, and I'm certain it will not be. Nothing to be excited by, but workable.

I can't speak to Punch's prices with any authority, but I can say I've used Punch to add a UV to my Dread Vile Striker. (*A* UV, because the prices for more than one *seem* ridiculous, though they might not be. In any case, I've only had 75k crowns a few times in my playing this game, and have never had 375k.) But at these prices, I'm flabbergasted to find something to do with Vise.

This, however, is blatently wrong, and is unusually bad.

Sat, 07/23/2011 - 08:54

Madadder

dude... OOO made it this way

dude... OOO made it this way TO DISCOURAGE THE USAGE OF VISE.

Sat, 07/23/2011 - 10:13

Negazero

Think about it...

...if a 5* item cost 200 energy to unbound it,people would easily just sell it for alot of money and people would finish he game WAAAY to quickly.You would barely see any newbies.You have to work your way to stuff,and not just buy it for a price when you just started.

Sat, 07/23/2011 - 11:32

Berzerkules

Fix Vise's Prices

@worldnamer: What would you prefer the prices be for vise & punch’s services?

@monkeyman135: I agree with you, 3rings knew these prices would discourage us, but they still provided us with the option for those who wish to
spend this kind of cash.

Sat, 07/23/2011 - 12:06

worldnamer

Legacy Username

@SKJAY81: I think that

@SKJAY81: I think that reducing Vise's prices to 1/10 of what they are now would actually get people to use him. Right now, it's as if he doesn't exist.

Sat, 07/23/2011 - 13:09

Quasirandom

The main purpose of Vise is

The main purpose of Vise is to give people willing to spend a lot of money on this game something to buy with their money. For five star items, that's nearly the only purpose of Vise. It's not supposed to turn into something where you decide to switch to different gear every week and sell off your old gear.

I guess another purpose of Vise is to allow people to unbind gear that is bought from tokens and sell that. But that's it. Vise isn't supposed to be commonly used.

Sat, 07/23/2011 - 13:15

Captain-Teemo

As said by almost every post

As said by almost every post (I assume, I haven't read them) the point of the high prices on vice was that it SHOULD be cheaper to craft an item than to unbind it!

The reason to unbind gear is purely for passing on something more difficult to obtain than the item it's self. Unique variants man, more valuable than the items themselves.

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 05:49

Vermilicious

Legacy Username

Of course, crafting has to be

Of course, crafting has to be cheaper. Why else would there be a point to a crafting system?
And, you forget a major thing in your calculations: energy for elevators - you need heat and materials.
Also, like monkeyman135 points out, you are not encouraged to do this. It's to enable rarer items and higher value items.

1/10 of the current prices has to be a joke...

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 06:08

Asonara

Legacy Username

1/10 is just rediculous, but

1/10 is just rediculous, but I'd say 2.5k for a 5* unbind wouldnt be bad, because that way, you would be better off making your own items than buying them.

The reason the current prices are a bit derp is because there are cases when you DO need to sell off items, for example, I was trying to get an ASI high/VH UV on my DA to go with my Skolver, but then bought a ASI high DA, so now Im stuck with 2 DAs, so I need to sell one (unless a patch that lets you dual wield DAs comes out?). But the problem is 4k is such a high fee I'd have problems selling a plain DA w/o UVs for anything much higher than that, which means that the oether DA is pretty much a dust-gatherer.

On a side note, I still do think there should be a level system which determines which kind of gear you're allowed to equip, instead of giving you the option to equip everything right away, cos it really isnt hard to basicly bypass T1 straight off the bat by just getting a tiny amount of CE for rl cash and buying some OK 3* equipment, and since T1 runs are guaranteed lossmakers, barely anyone ever runs them.

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 07:52

Nodocchi

@Asonara You are not supposed

@Asonara
You are not supposed to be able to sell them easily, also what makes you think people are going to pay well over 2.5k CE if you have trouble making them pay over 4k CE? People are only paying 4k now because that's the unbinding price, if it is lowered then they're just going to want to pay 2.5k. Have some patience and find a buyer either on trade chat or put your sword up on the AH.

A new player must do 15 depths before he is allowed to enter tier 2 so there is already something in place for your concern.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 12:15

#10

worldnamer

Legacy Username

Replies

@Shosuko - Making crafting cheaper than crafting plus unbinding is fine. But making unbinding cost more than DOUBLE the cost to buy all the materials, recipes and energy required to recreate the item in question? That's a bit of a stretch.

@Vermilicious - Every time I go into the Clockworks, I end up with more crowns than the energy cost me. Not to mention, OOO is giving us all 100 mist a day so I'm not sure the elevator costs are such a big deal.

@Asonara, et al. - Are you saying that if the unbinding costs were at 1/10 their current price, you'd be using the unbinding facilities? Is anyone ACTUALLY USING VISE? In other words, are there people who are willing to pay TEN USD to unbind a five star item? I find it hard to believe. I have never used Vise for any unbinding, nor will I, at those prices.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 13:29

#11

Nodocchi

@worldnamer People have

@worldnamer
People have unbound items using Vise and people have made money selling those unbound items. Just because you're too cheap/poor to use Vise doesn't mean others aren't making using of him.

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 01:45

#12

worldnamer

Legacy Username

@xiax

I see that there are people who have unbound their higher star items but my point is that doing so is strictly worse for everyone (except possibly OOO, but I would argue that it's bad for them too.)

Example. At the AH, there're two unmodified (non-UV) Vile Strikers. These are 4* weapons. That means, in addition to crafting costs (totalling 650ce, 3900 crowns, and a few thousand in material costs) there's an unbinding cost of 1800 energy. That's 2450 energy. If you simply sell 2450 energy on the market, it's worth ballpark 122.5k. So obviously, you have to sell the weapon for more than that.

They both have opening prices of 175k. Okay, that makes sense - the person selling these is trying to make a profit. The problem is, what is 175k worth to the buyer? The recipes of the Cutter, Striker, and Vile Striker are 21.1k. Energy to build each in sequence is worth 90k. Crafting costs are worth ~5k. So total to buy everything needed to make a Vile Striker FROM SCRATCH FROM THE AUCTION HOUSE is 116k. So this particular auction is charging a premium of about 60k for what? The time it takes to level a 3* item to level 5?

This is not a unique case. The situation gets more complex with UVs because the value of a UV is so subjective. But looking at the variant weapon auctions that have received bids, I see one Cold Iron Vanquisher with a really awesome unique variant (Attack Speed Increase: Medium) whose bid is 300k. The next auction with a bid is a Fang of Vog (Low damage boost vs. Undead) at 127k. The NEXT bid is for a Sealed Sword at 36k. There's a lot of time left, but frankly, there is a glut of high-priced swords on the market and buyers are scarce.

Another approach. Crafting a cutter fifty times would cost 2500 ce and 20k crowns. You would (almost certainly) get a number of good variants out of this, and you could even sell those that don't for a couple grand in crowns. Then to bring that cutter with an awesome UV up to Vile Striker level would take an extra 600 ce. So for about the same cost as either of these auctions, you could have forty nine cutters and one Vile Striker with a good UV.

BTW, I've spent actual cash on this game - I suspect I'm approaching $100.00. I'm not idly making a suggestion out of self-motivation. I'm making this suggestion because OOO has made a bad design decision and if I explain why, then it's possible I might at some point get to use Vise. When they announced that an unbinding option would be coming, they made it sound like they'd make it reasonable for people to use. Right now, the only people who are using it are people who don't understand the math.

When those people are disappointed with how things work out, OOO will be suffering right there with them.

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 01:51

#13

worldnamer

Legacy Username

@xiax

Ack. Looks like my math is off on energy costs in my example in crafting from the Auction House. It's actually 60k LESS than that to craft from scratch. In short, that makes it even more obvious that unbinding is in no way economically viable.

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 02:48

#14

Starlinvf

The new services are an

The new services are an intentional setup so that UV items don't flood the market. When its all said and done, the only people who are pissed about the pricing are the commercial UV crafters. Punch undermines the UV farmers because he can guaranty a UV, and can do so on items that are already at the end of the Alchemy path. For players vested in high star gear that never had UVs, Punch gives players an opportunity to obtain them for far cheaper then rage crafting or buying off the market, followed by the cost of having to build it back up.

Vise takes this one step further so that high star items would need to have excellent UVs to be even worth trying to sell. By encouraging players to obtain UVs on their own, the game finally has a long term crown sink.

It also has the added advantage of diverting CE away from rage crafting, into the market, and obtainable by low tier players. As a business strategy, its to their advantage to keep people playing long enough to be invested in their characters. Once they reach the end of T2, players have the option of working slowly up to 4star, or purchasing CE to cover the cost of crafting.

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 07:08

#15

Pokoo

punch

I think they should do something with punch prices, they're too high. Something like:

1 UV: 10000

2 UV: 45000

3 UV: 200000

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 13:03

#16

Knightmehr

prices will be reduced

I think the prices were set that high on purpose. They wanted to get out some extra CE and crowns from the market. When new features come out there are always people willing to pay for it, cause they really need it. This is a known strategy in business management and often used when introducing products/services. With time the price reduces.

So I think they will adjust the prices.

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 13:27

#17

sixdrumquads

Legacy Username

i think some thing like, 1

i think some thing like,
1 75
2150
3 500
4 1200
5 2400
would be fair, it is pricey but at the same time for somebody who gets a nice uv on an item and can sell it, that price wont diminsih the total value of said item

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 22:25

#18

Psychorazer

Just plain high

The prices are just too high for me to even consider using the services. I'm currently a 2* player and have been offered many times an opportunity to make a tempered calibur from my calibur. Before Vise was here, I had to decline, because my only calibur was bonded. Then when Vise came out, I was totally let down. I might as well make the tempered calibur myself with the energy that it takes to unbind. I even spent a few minutes with a couple of buddies gawking at the insane prices.

SK seriously needs to re-think this idea...

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 22:33

#19

Madadder

valkyrie just make another

valkyrie just make another calibur and trade that if thats the case

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 22:39

#20

Psychorazer

...

K, this is now off topic, so I'll hopefully end this here.

1. The offer usually are mats and energy included. It takes swordstone, and I'm not exactly rich on SK.
2. Then it'll cost me even more! Make ANOTHER calibur, then get someone to make it into Tempered calibur plus the extra costs!
3. Like I said, I'm not rich. Mats and the energy will probably always be the problem.
4. I heard this suggestion many times and it never seems to get old.
6. If I always did this, then my inventory will be littered with useless weapons by t3! Disused and old.

Somebody please take this discussion off me and back to the subject now.

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 23:17

#21

Starlinvf

The part I'm not

The part I'm not understanding is why this even a shock to you? If it costs X amount to upgrade an item, you still have to pay that cost regardless of you unbinding it or not. If its a matter of someone else needing to do the upgrade for you, then it makes even less sense since that person could just as easily give you the mats needed to craft.

The unbinding service isn't meant to be used on a item you plan to use yourself. The reason people suggest making another calibur is because no one can figure out why you think its not worth upgrading your current Calibur yourself.

Thu, 07/28/2011 - 00:18

#22

Psychorazer

...dam

Like I said, I'm not rich. I only recently just got my hands on a Tempered calibur recipe, which, btw cost 4K. It takes me the whole of T1 to raise that much, and I mostly lose it all because of ...other things.

I'm not saying it's not worth it to upgrade my own. I didn't have the means to do it myself, that's why people suggested they make one for me. But that usually costs more than doing it myself, which I din't have the cr/ce for either.

The idea I had when this thing came out was to unbind it, pass to another player who could make it for me (reasonable pricing) then get it back. That idea was shot when I saw the price. Giving it to someone would save me getting the recipe, which then I could just provide mats and energy. But even if I made another calibur, I would be out of the materials to upgrade (swordstone primarily). But unbinding would cost me just as much energy as making it, so I'd have to pay that cost twice over. I have enough trouble obtaining and keeping 100ce, so this would be a really hard problem.

Clear?

Can we talk about the subject now PLEASE?

Thu, 07/28/2011 - 06:59

#23

Duke_Nukem

Legacy Username

Err

Eye forgot what we were talking about.

Thu, 07/28/2011 - 08:47

#24

worldnamer

Legacy Username

Why Vise is Dead to Me

I think I can summarize.

To those who are considering buying items who are 1,2,3*, Vise makes no difference. To those who are considering selling items who are 1,2,3*, Vise makes no difference. Vise is only of interest to people who are looking at 4* and 5* items.

To people considering buying those items for economic reasons, Vise does nothing. The cost to buy those items from someone who has them is more expensive than simply crafting the item. To those considering crafting higher grade items for sale, there's no way to make a profit. To these people, Vise doesn't matter, because it would strictly be better to just craft the 3* version and have the potential buyer take it from there.

Vise only exists for people who are attempting to buy or sell UVs on gear they've already been using. And at that purpose, Vise continues to fail. The UV market is, by nature, a small group. Buying a 2* version of an item is so much better than buying the 5* version that it would be better to spend the unbinding energy on making more of the same item.

People are clearly not willing to sell their UV gear at less than fair value (just look for UV auctions where the buy price is at or below the energy cost + unbinding cost.) That's why I say Vise essentially doesn't exist. OOO probably removed tens of thousands of energy from the ecosystem by introducing Vise. (4k*10 = 40k) That's energy that *could* have been sold for crowns. Or if the prices were 1/10 that, I might consider selling high level items that I'm not using in exchange for the crowns as long as it was greater than the cost to unbind/list the item. As it stands, the game is worse for Vise's existence.

Thu, 07/28/2011 - 15:55

#25

Psychorazer

To Duke_Nukem

@ Duke_Nukem (Facepalm)

I've already covered what I wanted to say earlier, but I'll say it without the random anecdotes for anyone who doesn't get it.

For people who need to upgrade their existing gear but don't have the recipe, they sometimes get offers to craft it for them if they provide that materials and energy. Unfortunately, the players weapon is bound and does not have he means or just plain doesn't want to get another to give, because it would then cost them extra. Vise could have solved this problem by allowing the player to unbind his weapon so he/she could give it to someone to upgrade for them. Unfortunately his cost is so high, the person may as well do it himself.

If you don't get it, then I'll just keep saying it differently until you do.

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