Forums › English Language Forums › General › Suggestions

Search

An in-depth look at the game's economy and a suggestion for a small implementation with a big effect. *Warning, VERY LONG*

9 replies [Last post]
Wed, 03/23/2011 - 00:06
Seth
Legacy Username

The energy system as it stands is very good, with only one minor problem and one potentially game-breaking problem. The minor problem is immediately apparent- New players, who are at that crucial stage whether they decide the game is worth playing or not, have their gameplay severely limited by the current system. They do not get desirable loot from dungeons, and do often fail to get far enough to make enough crown to cover their dungeoning costs. As a result they have to wait for their energy to recharge multiple times, especially when equipment costs for entering Tier 2 are factored in. This can easily ruin the game for more impatient players, and they'll leave without knowing that f2p is entirely sustainable at later stages. Currently, for tier 2 and 3 players it fairly easy to get enough crown via Crystal Energy to buy more at a profit, however tier 1 players often do not and can't afford Crystal Energy in the first place. Some consideration should be taken to make the game a bit more easily accessible at the sensitive early stages for new players, while also minimizing the chance of abuse by veteran players.

The potentially game-breaking problem is not immediately apparent, as it hasn't actually happened yet, but it is something that anyone can see will happen eventually. Currently, the entire game's economy and f2p strategy is based on CE being sold for crowns- There are people who are supplying CE for the rest of the players and thus make it playable for others. Time and again evidence has been shown that when there is a dip in the number of new players, the price of CE begins to climb rapidly, and when there is a flood of new players the price falls. I theorize that this is because most CE buyers are newbies who wish to quickly establish themselves within the game instead of crawling up the slow stages like normal. Furthermore, there is little reason to sell CE unless you're either a merchant, (which means you're doing it at a profit, most likely selling CE you already bought at a cheaper price via crowns, and thus not benefiting the market in any way) or you're low on Crown but have lots of CE. (You can't buy crown with money directly, and recipes/alchemy still cost crown as well, so even a CE buyer would need to sell some to get crown unless they want to grind the dungeons for it. Most t2/t3 players usually will not find themselves at a loss for crown, so this further evidences that newbies are the primary CE salesmen.)

In any case, the point is that there is a correlation between fresh players and CE availability, and that keeping a stream of new players coming into the game is directly within the interests of both the free players and Three Rings for obvious reasons. However, there are also dire consequences should the number of players begin to fall. As I mentioned, when the number of new players (or players in general) begins to decrease, the cost of CE begins to increase, and the game becomes more difficult for everyone to continue playing-- especially the newbies who can't profit from Crystal Energy yet. This can potentially just lead to a lot of people buying energy and balancing the market out, but it can also theoretically begin a vicious cycle of more people leaving because of energy prices, less people joining and energy costs continuing to climb as a result- the game could have it's own market crash, and it would be disastrous for everyone involved. I think for the sake of both encouraging players to keep bringing fresh players into the game and for stabilizing the market should the population take a dip, a referral system awarding Crystal Energy (and possibly even some cool/unique prizes, though most importantly Energy in SOME form for the sake of keeping the market stable) should be added to the game. With a referral system that awards energy, players in general who might not be aware of the indirect benefits of inviting others to the game will have an incentive to invite. Furthermore, if energy prices begin to reach unsustainable levels, they'll be theoretically met by an increase in player referrals for the sake of getting energy without spending too much crown, followed by a slight decrease in demand, as well as a flood of new players. (A percentage of whom will be buying CE and contributing to market stabilization, others will also be inviting friends to help build up enough wealth to sustain themselves within the game.) Furthermore, this can also answer the above issue with newbies, because they would be able to get out of the tier 1 slump more easily by inviting others to gain more energy for equipment and dungeons.

So yeah, that's my wall of theorycraft regarding the game. Overall, I love comparing this game's energy system to the oil-based economy of the real world. Like oil, CE literally fuels almost the entire economy of Spiral Knights, but it is a 'limited' resource and could eventually run out, which would be catastrophic if we are not prepared for said event. My idea simply attempts to make CE a bit less of a limited resource while also directly benefiting Three Rings, who still obviously need to sell CE to keep the game running. The referral system obviously shouldn't give energy to the point that everybody can quit buying CE and only invite others in order to play the game, it is simply a fail-safe to stabilize the market and the game should things begin to go out of control, as well as a method to encourage healthy growth of the game's population in general.

If you actually read all that, thanks. I know I could probably have compiled my thoughts better, but hopefully people understand what I'm saying and give it a serious thought regardless.

As a side note, other than those two issues, I feel that there is nothing wrong with the system at all. I feel that the elevator costs, alchemy costs, and all the other Energy costs of the game are perfectly fine and fair to both free and paying players. It is simply a little more difficult for new players to start out than it needs to be, and the ever-present nightmare scenario caused by the playability of the game being directly tied into the market of a consumable, limited resource.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 00:40
#1
Hoogie
Legacy Username
TL;DR: What happens when

TL;DR: What happens when people stop buying CE from real life money?

This is a very real problem and I don't think there is a real solution to it.

First off, the game needs to retain stable players. New players will only buy something from a game that seems worth it. And seeing other players is very VERY influential.

Invites also need to keep coming. (which is where the problem lies) What happens when Spiral Knights becomes one of those games that people say "Oh? SK. yeah... been there done that." Buying CE from real money is only important for new players or new characters because by tier 2, CE trades are so obtainable, it becomes almost infinite. Also the reason behind the CE market is when new players make the common "mistake" of buying too much CE that they don't know what to do with it.

Sure new armors and features will work for sometime, but that's just it. it will work for SOMEtime. Sooner or later, the lack of CE will cause the game's demise, and the need for a Spiral Knights sequel.

My Ideas:

-The Release on April 4 seems to work with a lot of people spending for CE for that sudden refresh with interest. Maybe you can build benefits for purchasers. Not necessarily refreshes. Maybe a raffle and you enter a ticket for every 200 energy bought since (insert time and date here)

-Do what Artix Entertainment does. A Beta Server with early releases that can be brought to the normal server for people who pay for energy. Entrance could be granted at limited times depending on the amount of CE purchased and the recency of those purchases.

-Give the game a wonderful story. When the game dies, release a complete epic line of events or quests. This may seem odd, but it works with WoW. What would happen is that Old players would come back and buy CE because they want to be first to beat that shiny new boss, and invite new players cause they think the game is awesome.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 02:16
#2
Seth
Legacy Username
Honestly, those kind of seem

Honestly, those kind of seem like treating the symptoms and not the actual problem, and are unrelated to the system in any way at all. First of all, Artix Entertainment is horrible in every way possible, and I hope for this game's sake that Three Rings does not emulate them in any way whatsoever. I quit AE games forever because, not only were their games mediocre, but the way they milk every single penny possible out of the players is disgusting. AQWorlds as an example, they made every item in the game piss easy to get, and created no real item statistics, so basically the only things that were considered 'valuable' in the game were rare discontinued items. AE sees this and what happens next? ULTRA RARE NEW MEMBERS ONLY ITEM EVERY SINGLE MONTH, BE SURE TO GET YOURS TODAY, THIS ITEM WILL NEVER BE AVAILABLE AGAIN! Seriously, screw those guys.

Adding bonuses to getting CE to make people want to buy CE without intending to use it is not the proper way to go about this. It is bad for the game and would frustrate players and deteriorate their view of both the game and Three Rings. During the months of the preview event we have already seen significant evidence that gaining new players is both a natural and effective means of increasing the CE supply, whether they're accidentally buying too much CE or not is besides the point, the fact of the matter is that it happens and it makes everyone feel good so we should capitalize on it. Releasing quick gimmicks like events to make people buy CE is only a temporary solution, like how they dropped giant icecubes into the ocean to prevent Global Warming in Futurama, what we need is a lasting change that will reduce or remove the problem entirely, like Nixon's plan to kill all the robots on Earth.

Furthermore, the idea of 'just release a cool quest line when things get shaky' doesn't make any sense, since as a player I hope that Three Rings is constantly working on improving and introducing content to the game no matter how successful it is, and not just doing it when they think they feel like it. Furthermore, high-tier players are the least likely to buy CE in any case whatsoever, since they've usually already established their own wealth ingame and have no need to buy CE to get a fancy new sword. I've never bought CE and I have several 5* items and numerous more in the making, and it's really more of a matter of me grinding the heat to upgrade them than me having to scrape together funds to pay for them. However, I have already decided that if I still want to play by the time release rolls around I'm going to buy a $20 pack so that I can bypass the slow early stages as quickly as possible and support the game simply because I've enjoyed it so much. The earlygame is the most prominent time for CE purchase, so introducing many new players should be the best way to capitalize on that.

Basically, my suggestion is a simple mechanic to improve the market when it gets bad, without the need of developer intervention. It works all on it's own as many times as it needs to based on basic triggers and responses. Inviting others is a cure to CE being expensive, people will want other means of energy if CE is too expensive, so you just give them energy for inviting others. Also, it's easy to make a referral system impossible to abuse, and there's never anything wrong with more people being invited to the game. In fact, it might even be worth while to give a larger bonus to people who refer players that later buy CE. Furthermore, this system would obvious cause fluctuations in the price from low, to high, to low again-- if this works successfully for a time CE Merchants who are familiar with the pattern will begin to sell their stock at the high points, because they know it will go back down, and they will assist in re-balancing the market. (And make a good buck while doing so.) Typically when CE prices begin to spike, everyone will stop selling CE in the first place because there's no guarantee that it will come back down, and it will only exacerbate the problem with the only people willing to sell being the ones who will take advantage of the situation to sell at extremely high prices.

Note, I don't mean any disrespect to your idea or anything... Sorry if I come across as overly critical or anything, it's just pretty late so I'm having a hard time properly saying things. I just don't think they're what we need in this situation. ^^

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 08:01
#3
Hoogie
Legacy Username
first off, I don't like Artix

first off, I don't like Artix Entertainment either. And I detest the idea of pay only items. That's why I suggested a preview server. Everyone will get it sooner or later. Payment just makes you get first dibs. Doesn't have to be a big preview either. just a week will do cause people are that impatient.

Referrals won't work as good as you think. I've seen this done in other games. An old player gets access to a computer that has never played SK. makes an email, refers to that email, makes the account. presto. A need for the referred account to be tier 2? no worries. done in around an hour. Yes. People are this desperate. Also the ads will make people chase for people to refer to them, making the game seem more saturated than it is or will be and destroy the image of the game. Invites shouldn't be given cause "LOL I get cool stuff", but rather should be given out willingly cause the game itself is cool. Referrals are also both the birth and death of many many facebook games, which I bet you know, have very very short life spans.

One last thing. Paragraph 3 Sentence 1. You stated "[it] doesn't make any sense, since as a player I hope" sense shouldn't be based on hope, but rather cold hard facts. Game life is not necessarily about happiness, but rather making a game is a game itself about seduction and addiction, and sometimes certain tactics are necessary to make games live long. Note World of Warcraft and Everquest.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 08:17
#4
Splinter's picture
Splinter
My 2 cents

Keep in mind my comments are coming from the perspective of a relative newbie who has yet to purchase CE with Crowns or with Dollars.

I read this whole thread!

Anyways I agree new people are the life blood of the CE market. I have an alternative idea though, beyond invites, which I think is a good idea in general, to keep the game active and keep the market flowing.

Potentially, I think the market should be expanded. Beyond Crowns and CE, include armor, weapons, recipes, and materials. I see it happening already in the Forums Bazaar, a lot of the selling and trading is done for CE rather than Crowns. This should just be expanded into the game. Doing this should cater to the long term players, allowing rare items to be bought and sold for CE or Crowns.

The demand for higher end items will always be there. Wouldn't this create more demand for excess CE, meaning more people purchasing it out of game and selling it in game? Thus fully fleshing out the economy, and possibly sustaining it longer.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 08:23
#5
Hoogie
Legacy Username
as long as you don't mean

as long as you don't mean buying equip with real life money, then this is a good idea, however I don't see how it will help the CE market since most crown is actually made in the game then rather from the market.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 10:05
#6
Rose
Legacy Username
TL;DR: What happens when

TL;DR: What happens when people stop buying CE from real life money?

Then there will be no more Spiral Knights.

But!

For only a mere dollar a day, you can feed, clothe, and house (in a cardboard box) a dev. Without your generous contributions, they will be forced to panhandle on the rainy streets of San Francisco holding signs that read "WILL MAKE VIDYA FOR FOOD".

Save the devs! savethedevs dot org

ok, sorry bye

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 16:27
#7
Skwiziks
Legacy Username
Currency Debasement

Don't forget that we're dealing with an all powerful sovereign here. One who can choose to increase or lower the value of crystal energy at any given time. As with last weekend when elevators cost much less, Three Rings has the ability to alter the CE costs of everything in the game temporarily. This can be elevators, alchemy or even a change in the $ to CE ratio. If the market is getting stagnant, they can create encouragements for players to buy CE (this can be referral based but doesn't have to be) and if the market is too saturated they can make attaining CE more difficult to level things out.

As this is a pretty simple Supply/Demand market it will require a lot of constant tweaking from the Devs in order for the CE market to be stable. A completely laissez-faire economy will have booms and busts but a regulated and controlled economy will be much more stable.

1.) Use referrals, limit the number of referrals per account.
2.) Tweak the costs of CE and other game features as necessary.
3.) Consider having a larger variety of things that CE can be spent on.
4.) Consider having New Player Sign-up Bonus Weekends, or something along those lines.
5.) Most importantly, take an active role in regulating the CE market.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 18:56
#8
Seth
Legacy Username
Personally, I feel it's

Personally, I feel it's mathematically impossible for someone to abuse the referral system if they implement a couple basic measures. (For example, reaching tier 2)

Think of it this way, you cannot get into tier 2 without a full set of Tier 2 equipment, and tier 2 equipment isn't free. At the very least you're paying 200 energy and 1600 crown for alchemy, plus at least 150 energy (If I recall correctly) for elevator costs of getting the necessary tokens, and miscellaneous costs for materials/recipes, and finally; time. If someone has to span this across 3 days to get the mist to actually get into tier 2 on another account then it's obviously inefficient and not worth it. If they can make enough money on the tier 1 account to buy CE with crowns and get to tier 2 'within an hour' then obviously CE is cheap enough for a tier 1 to profit from it, is even easier for a tier 2 or 3 to be profiting from it, and the fellow is actually making money less efficiently than he would be just running Royal Jelly/Vanaduke on his main.

Now imagine, for example, that the referral system gives 100 CE for a single invited person who reaches tier 2, 300 CE if they manage to reach tier 3, and bonus CE equal to 5% of all CE that person purchases with real money. (Note these are arbitrary numbers, I don't know exactly what reward amounts would be most effective.) The amount that it awards is attractive, (and can be significant, IF you manage to bring a lot of long-term players to the game and/or indirectly cause the sale of lots of CE) but not something worth going out of your way/abusing the system for. However, I do NOT feel limiting referrals is the best idea, as you obviously want as much potential growth in the number of players and customers as possible. It would also mess with the point of it salvaging the market should it start to deteriorate, but I don't need to get into that part. (Note that this mostly pertains to a cap on the number of referrals a person could have. A system similar to the Preview's invite system where you get invitations by actively doing dungeons would be perfectly acceptable and possibly even better than just limitless invites.)

Finally, I agree that regulation has a place in this, maybe via CE sales or events, but I don't think heavy regulation is a good answer to this either. Heavy regulation would be stressful for Three Rings and the players, lowering the energy cost of anything would make CE even more valuable and then drive the price UP, though having more things to spend CE on seems like a good idea as long as they don't particularly make anything else in the game pointless. Things like that in events and such every so often are fine and most MMOs do them quite successfully, however trying to use them to actively control the market would be quite unhealthy. With the oil economy as an example, imposing heavy oil regulations to temporarily make it more readily available, or making things somewhat more efficient does not fix the problem that oil will eventually just run out.

While I am fully aware the analogy isn't perfect because there can always be more CE purchased with money while oil will run out some day, the threat of a collapse is still there. If there aren't enough CE buyers for too long the market will collapse, CE will become too expensive for anyone to buy, and this would cause most (if not all) of the free players (as well as many paying players) to quit the game indefinitely. Furthermore, the popularity of a multiplayer game hinges heavily on it's overall attractiveness and success, if the market collapses and most of the population leave the game it may not be able to ever recover and join the numerous dead MMOs on the internet, or if it does recover it will be extremely slowly.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 19:08
#9
Skwiziks
Legacy Username
Hmmm

Alright, you've convinced me. Uncapped (but not immediately available) invites sound like a good idea.

Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system