I have to admit.. the "unbind" thing really seems more like a gimmick to promote selling more CE...

For that matter I would just about wager that it to some large degree is.

"lets generate more CE by adding even more stuff you can do with it, then we will have a give away weekend where we give away a moderate amount of CE to keep price down initially and see a sharp rise over time!"

I respect that the company wants to make money.

I don't respect the fact that if I'm paying CE to go down levels, and for any one of a possible numerous reasons I lose connection to the internet... I just spent even if a relatively small amount, real world money and didn't even get to finish the run I wanted.

Not to be one of those people that complain about everything.. however, I really, really think they could tweak some of their idea's just a little bit.

EX: trinket slots -.-

EDIT: also it may just be me percieving it but, I feel like the prices of materials have been dropping lately making it harder to compensate for energy spent going down.

What your not looking at, is the fact that the entire economy is under the control of the company making the game.

I respect the companies desire to make money.

However, by preventing free trade of weapons this leaves the best way to acquire them through making them yourself.

your yourself said 2500 CE is a pretty low estimate for a 5 star leviathan blade.

So by it costing another 4000 CE to unbind a 5 star item, your keeping the price inflated, roughly 6500 CE to make then unbind.

Your not going to turn a profit quickly at all unless you have a pretty great UV or UV set.

So barring UV's few people are probably going to seriously make an endeavor to sell 5* items for public consumption.

What does this mean? More reason to buy a starter/party pack -.-

I mean.. honestly.. I really, really, respect the right of the company to make money off of their game they put their work and time and energy into.

The problem I have is look at how far they go to push you to buy energy.

Levels, are relatively short fast paced and fun so you burn through energy faster.

You *Need* crystal energy to get 3* and up items. You can get it without paying but, your eventually going to face an issue.. limit how much you play on a daily basis to save CE for upgrades slowing your progress through the game, OR pay for CE and use real world money to keep from being too limited.

They are limited the in game economy by not allowing free trade of weapons without huge fees just to unbind them.

I mean.. it begins to raise the question "whats ethical", because they control the loot dropped.. the fact that there is the potential for an infinite amount of players with a finite amount of buyers means that there will be more materials in the market than there will be energy sellers selling energy.

This creates a huge imbalance particularly in the crown trade.

Completed products have more "relative value" than materials because, there are 2 star items being sold by in game vendors and time and crystal energy goes into making 3 star items.

So completed items do have a bit more value, however the problem? 3 star items require energy to make, therefore their price can scale to the cost of energy for a little while at least.

It just raises the question how much are they going to do to get people to buy CE?

I just recently got a starter pack.. I love this game.

Objectively, I hate looking at it and asking "I wonder what new potentially awesome update will come out next, and be almost if not completely totally useless!"

"Three rings wants you to progress through the game normally. This means building your own gear, leveling up your own recipes, and exploring the clockworks without any handouts."

Without any hand outs? you mean unless your willing to pay for them?

You can't progress through the game at at all without CE. It's not possible. Seeing as materials generally don't sell for much at all... this means your options are A. not progress and stay where you are after 2 star items. B. pay for CE. or C. quit playing.

"You can either play normally and get your leviathan blade via. making a calibur, upgrading/getting heat to upgrade it, etc.
OR, you can buy your 7k energy and buy it like that."

Define "making it normally" there is no way to make it without CE, there is no way to get to it without CE.

I may be wrong but, last I checked, you get roughly 4-5k from going through tier 2 up to jelly king.

Now lets just assume you can do the run without dying once and you do it once a day (rounding a little bit, but nothing major really).

To get the 2500 CE your going to need to make the leviathan blade *ASSUMING* prices don't go up is going to take you in the neighbor hood of 25 days.

That's for a single 5* item.

"I see absolutely nothing wrong with this system, for one sole reason. Yes, people that buy energy are getting a shortcut, but they are in no way, shape, or form more powerful than the people that do not buy energy."
This statement is totally inaccurate and I want to know what logic your using to get to it.

Seeing as the *ONLY* measure of power in this game is the equipment you have, people who buy energy are the most powerful players. No power exist in this game outside the power given to you buy your armor equipment. (Let's not argue skill because, there is a reason tier 2 and tier 3 are restricted by armor, not by how many monsters you've killed or how well you have done in game. Since "skill" can not be quantified we can't objectively discuss it.)

people who don't pay for energy are at an disadvantage every time.

If someone wanted to right now, they could create a new account, buy 20k crystal energy and get great equip and bam they have more "power" than someone who has been playing for a full month if not two.

"More than a few players have attested to the viability of making it to 5* without ever buying energy with real money, they are living proof that your argument is false Spiral_Fox."

I never said it was impossible, I am only making a case that no matter what you do you can't get to 5* without crystal energy and this affects the entire gameplay when it comes to the mechanics of loot/reward.

"Also your math is wrong, people make around 7k per run doing jelly king,"
I'll concede this may be a better average as I have usually had trouble on the last level.

"and without doing the king that means it only costs 70 energy, therefore in two days a person can do 3 runs."
I'm going to contest this. In order to do 3 runs every 2 days, it assumes you are available every time the energy is ready meaning your either A. just in a position where you can do it, I.E. weekend/off which for most people is not sustainable or B. Planning your schedule around the game

"This fact alone cuts down your estimate of 25 days to 17 days. But who says someone is going to craft a 5* item right off the bat? That person can craft quite a few 4 star items for the same price and be well gears for tier 3."

I won't argue the days since I'm not calculating money however, I would wager 25 days is closer.

And no one said anyone was crafting 5* right off the bat but, it works better for your argument if you just assume they are, since I wasn't discussing tier 3 at all. If you want to discuss tier 3 and entering it you need a shield, sword, helm, and armor all at 4* which for the 4* recipes alone is 40k, plus 400 energy x 4 items

if we want to count total cost of creation we could start with

recipe in crowns 1000, 4000, and 10,00 ( assuming 5k per 100 energy this is 300 energy by itself.)
alchemy cost in energy 50, 200, 400

I'll even leave out the alchemy cost in crowns..

Now 300 + 50 + 200 + 400
= 950

X 4 per item

2800 CE for 4* items.

" Yes, people who buy energy are essentially getting a shortcut and will obtain 5* equipment more quickly than those who do not buy energy but that does not mean people who do not buy energy will never catch up. It will take those people more time but they will be able to eventually get the same equipment as those who bought energy"

Well, that is lovely... It's also lovely you said that a more than a few people said you can make it to 5* without ever buying energy with real money, but your not claiming to be one.

none of this has any bearing on my argument that three rings directly controls the economy and create's problems which can be both unfair and annoying to people who aren't paying real money to play the game.

I never actually argued it was impossible, so please don't take my arguments out of context.

The point I am trying to make is that the game itself is geared towards getting players to spend real life money on the game itself and there is a difference between trying to make a profit off of the game, and out right milk it. The way they have it set up and are setting it up isn't just an issue of "advantage vs. disadvantage" but, it is pretty much asking the question "how much can we twist the customers arm to buy CE?"

I would also like to address your point of "skipping the grind"... Without CE, you can't even grind more than an hour a day.

Even if your managing 7k a jelly run your only making 2k profit assuming your "grinding" more than a single run a day"

Material drops are almost irrelevant at this point because, there are so many people out to undercut everyone else.

The only point I am trying to make is that SK is moving towards a really, really bad economic system.

Being totally honest I don't mind that the game claims "free to play" but, I think views on both sides of these arguments could use some *SERIOUS* adjustment.

I am not against the company charging and I've come to accept the CE system, I understand the sentiments of "no free rides".

On the flipside there is such thing as "diminishing returns" and if you push to hard, you eventually push customers away.

Then again, maybe I am playing the wrong game since this is more geared towards "causal gamers" to begin with.

I have like, multiple 5* gear:
guns x5,
swords x2,
shields x2,
armor sets x2 (helm+body)...

...and I've never paid real money to fund any of them.

Obviously, someone down the line paid for crystal energy, but I just chose to buy it with crowns instead of real money (which actually would have been a better use of my time, because I have a job where 2-3 hours is enough to save weeks of "grinding"). But you know what? I found the game fun to play, so it wasn't a problem that my raw crown profits were low.

Also, I've mentioned this before, but while 3rings seems to be making content patches for the newer players/ everyone (tier 1/tier 2 bosses), the other features (heat amp, perhaps even unbinding) seems to be more geared for few, ultra-premium players who spend more time in their real life jobs than in-game.

And that's the nice thing about the game.
1 hour of playing might get you a profit of 10-30 CE, but 1 hour of real life (job - let's say $7 per hour) might get about 14x that, if you pay money.

Well Eradicats if you listen to what they're main issue with the unbinding was then it wouldn't make sense to have it be too profitable. What OOO wanted to do was make items harder to come by and give them more value but when items were permanetly bound people complained. They then had to find a way for people to unbind items while still keeping things relatively rare.

I think the cost to unbind is good. Ppl aren't going to sell NORMAL 5* equips, which was something they didn't want. What ppl will unbind are equips that are 5* with a uv that is worth prolly 10x the unbind fee, so that premium items can be passed on. OR - if someone is really desperate (and stupid imo) they can buy ce enough to buy crap unbound gear 5*... This is pretty stupid because for the cost of unbinding you could just craft it yourself lol.