Spiral Knights - Limit the amount of Energy revives allowed in a single run.

Limit the amount of Energy revives allowed in a single run.

11 replies [Last post]

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 09:42

kakelgis

Legacy Username

Currently, energy revives are one of the biggest energy sinks on the game. And it's the worst one aswell, because 99% of the time, it's not worth it at all.

It's pretty simple. Every time you do an energy revive, the next revive doubles in the energy price. So if you were at 10, it becomes 20, then 40, then 80... Capping out at 1000... However, there's no limit as to how many revives you can do.

This feels really unfair on free players, who don't have much energy to waste - While the players that buy CE can just go and revive tons of times, the more crazy ones going infinitely, with no worries, but a free player cannot risk more than two revives, at most, or they would simply be at a major loss.

But that's not the main problem. The main problem is the whole pricing on revives. I mean, come on. 1000 energy? What?
Currently there's literally no kind of material or loot that would ever be worth wasting that much. The most you can get in a run would be about 15k+ crowns, coupled with a few materials usually worth 10k or so. And this is on a T3 run, on the best gate set-up possible for crowns and such.

Currently the CE price is pretty low, so if you got tons of good mats on a perfect run, the loot could even make up for the energy lost. (Assuming you don't go crazy and spend over 1500EN on revives...) But now consider after release - The price will certainly go tons, since we will have much more demand for CE.

But anyway. This is just a bit ridiculous - You can go on infinitely, as long as you pay for it. What's the point in some challenge if the players can simply revive themselves and just keep doing it until they win a boss, a danger zone, or something more challenging like that?

But obviously... No one is even going to waste that much on revives. It's not worth it, right?

But now simply think about it. You're on the last stage of Vanaduke, an incredibly hard boss. You have died several times already and you're at a quite high energy price, and then you die. Then you're faced with two options. Either give up and make all this time you wasted getting here and fighting him, the other energy wasted on revives, pretty much a waste. Or you can revive for an insane price and attempt to finish this.

In general, the problem is that the players will simply think "Damn, I was so close", and then if they give up, they will feel really demotivated for getting so close, and wasting so much time and energy, and failing. So on certain cases, the players end up being encouraged to revive more, until this one situation would end - But only later they'd realize this was much more of a waste.

I'd suggest limiting the amount of revives up to a 80EN price, or possibly 40EN, if we wanted to be a bit more strict. And after that, not allowing any more energy revives. This allows for up to six (Or five, if 40EN) revives on T1, decreasing by one each tier. The reason behind a limit isn't even the insane prices; It's simply how long you can go with revives. The game doens't provide much of a challenge if you can just revive yourself a billion times and keep going, even if it costs a ton of EN. It's a bit disappointing - You can easily defeat bosses like Vanaduke by simply wasting tons of energy on revives, when something as challenging as that should only really be easily accomplished by a lot of practice and gearing up.

Or if the limit idea doens't sound very good for you, I'd just suggest lowering the cap, to at most 200. Having it at 1000 feels really unfair, like if it's some sort of trick to get us to waste thousands (...Quite literally) of CE so we just buy more.

But yeah, that's about it. Either limit the amount of revives allowed, or reduce the energy cost cap. The current system doesn't work well.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 09:57

aceofbass

Legacy Username

The only issue I have is that

The only issue I have is that it might take funding from the game, and new games really need a strong income or they don't last long, besides more often then not me and my friends do the hp in half method, something I don't want limited.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 10:04

kakelgis

Legacy Username

"HP" revives would still be

"HP" revives would still be limitless, only Energy revives would be limited.

In general, this is not what CE is bought for - I'm pretty sure anyone who buys CE buys it simply for crafting, upgrades, more playtime and the such, without really having revives in mind. It's simply one of those money sinks, however in this case, it's too extreme of a sink. I have met several players that on impulse have spent over 4000CE on revives. Even I did crazy stuff like that once, on my very first Vanaduke run, although I didn't go all that far.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 10:15

aceofbass

Legacy Username

I suppose but a player should

I suppose but a player should have the choice to spend that money or not, the game isn't sneaky, they know what there getting for the price they are paying, and hell the game even offers a cap for the cost. When I bought CE it was to have for whatever purpose i might require, and that did include reving me and my friends more then once. now maybe if the limit was obsessive say like 5k CE i can understand, but a limit under that would feel well limiting :<

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 10:15

Splinter

Confused

I'm going to try and lay out my train of thought as legibly as possible. [Mind you I have been on maybe 2 T2 runs, still new here!]

To address this, what you have seen with constant revives wasting countless Energy, I have not. I have gone on a few solo runs where someone else reviving you is not an option, and I will admit I have paid for a revive, 5 Energy, not so bad, 10, ok, once it hits 20, it becomes a deterrent to me, especially as someone who hasn't bought any CE. I don't see how anyone would want to throw away 20, 40, 80, 160 energy etc., not to mention when you are reviving your whole party that quadruples.

Maybe this happens now because Energy doesn't matter and there will be a wipe, but Energy as I have seen from the constant discussion, and it is pretty obvious, is treasured over all else. Like you said most people realize that 20 energy to continue, is not worth it and instead heading back up to haven, regrouping and trying again is a way better strategy.

As it is if you are dying that much you are under geared or under prepared or both. Running through floors that you can kill without dying is the way to progress in this game, along with strategizing and gearing up.

I see nothing broken here.

If someone wants to do a run to a boss way above their level, alone or with a group, continuously dying and throwing Energy at it until they pay their way to the end, so be it. The amount they waste on energy, and time, the benefits are minimal. I don't really know how much you gain from killing Vanaduke, but to use your extreme example, is it's cost equal to 1000 EC or better? (currently 100 EC is at 4k Crowns?, so 40k Crowns to kill one boss)

You said it yourself that it is not the way to play through the game. I can't see this encouraging big spenders to "cheat" their way through the game. I see the doubling of Energy prices as a great deterrent is it is, again if someone is really willing to drop all that Energy to force their way through impossible levels, why not let them. I doubt there are actually that many people who would. I mean you are throwing away abou $4 worth of energy on one run? Why not, keeps the economy going.

Also to note 1000 E if that is the max, is about 8 to 9 revives into it, thats a heck of a lot, and that compounds so its well over 2000 CE then you just start adding thousands. That is a heck of a lot of money to throw away. You don't think that will stop people from doing it?

CE spent on revives should go into some kind of lottery or something if that is the case. Drawings once a week, to some lucky player.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 10:38

kakelgis

Legacy Username

You guys would be impressed

You guys would be impressed with some people. Maybe it is because of the closed beta, after all - However, I'm pretty sure some players would still waste tons to revive, even after release.

@Paska - As you're a T2 player, and relatively new, I guess, you're not up to the point this happens yet. T3 takes quite a difficulty curve, getting much harder - It's likely that players new to T3 would end up having to revive a few times, for their first runs. I even have to revive a bit sometimes myself, since some areas prove to be overly difficult.

As I said, the limit would be mainly to add an actual challenge relating to practice and gearing up to the game - While the price doubling does stop free players and some low spenders, the higher spenders usually wouldn't mind as much, which feels like a somewhat unfair advantage. The general price isn't really what I mind on this case, but rather, the infinite amount of revives you have avaible.

Some players will be willing to sacrifice tons of CE on revives for first-time experiences, and never do it again, usually simply for the experience. In general, as a gameplay experience, I'd say it'd feel much more gratifying to actually fairly defeat a boss or whatever after some attempts of practice and all, instead of simply skipping most of the difficulty with revives.

For my other suggestion, of reducing the energy cap on revives - While most people will avoid getting this far on revives, it feels simply unfair - The price is there, tempting the players. It's not worth it and everyone knows - However some people are just not able to accept their failure, and end up reviving. And besides, if no one is ever going to waste that much, why have it? I'd rather have the whole cap on a lower cost, at least. From a more marketable view, reducing the cap would probably help - While most people aren't going to waste that much on revives, if it was lower, it'd be a bit more plausible, and some people would end up actually using it sometimes. Although this kinda goes against what I'd mainly like changed for revives, with the limiting suggestion.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 11:38

Franpa

Legacy Username

Limiting revives will make it

Limiting revives will make it a pain in the ass for me, unless you want to buy me a fiber cable and have it connect my house straight to the DSLAM, even then I doubt Australia has very good connections with wherever the servers located.

Point is, lag makes it impossible to have a realistic challenge regardless of how the energy/revive system works because I end up playing blind most of the time. So instead of trying a system to add challenge to the game at the expense of non-ideal situations, add a system that makes it fun for all!

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 13:09

Crawdaunt

Legacy Username

I can't imagine anyone

I can't imagine anyone actually spending the 1000 energy to revive once unless it's something reeeeally major... let alone multiple times. I have enough energy to afford such revives but it's a total waste and does NOT give an advantage at the cost of 1k CE each...

Also, it's not nearly as much of a problem if you don't play by yourself.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 19:20

Seth

Legacy Username

I don't want to be 'this

I don't want to be 'this guy', but if someone wants to waste their money then why would any of us have a say in it? He payed for that energy with his money (or crowns) and so he should be able to do whatever he wants with it. There is literally NO advantage presented by being able to revive that many times. The sheer amount of currency spent is worth far more than anything you can gain from any dungeon by doing it. It's literally just a sink for people to throw away their money if they feel like it, and I have no problem with that because it doesn't detract from the game and it is just a video game.

Simply put, unless they're a scam artist then they earned that CE. Whether they earned it by directly funding the further development of the game or by grinding their ass off (like I do) to buy CE with crowns, it's up to them what they do with it, and you shouldn't have a say in what they do with it because they earned it and you didn't. If it's a friend of yours or someone you know personally that is wasting their CE, you can always just tell them that it bothers you because you don't get to and feel it could be better used elsewhere, and they might listen. Don't complain about what people do with their own virtual currency, you'd be better off using the time and effort making some of your own.

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 23:27

Sadiekate

If you wanted to protect the

If you wanted to protect the 'accomplishment through skill' from the 'accomplishment through purchase', you could boot players *up* a floor after ce reviving. Gremlin healers pop up and carry you up the elevator to where you will be safer, patch you up like they do, and accept a 'donation' of whatever CE cost you are up to.

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 23:42

#10

Pupu

Legacy Username

Wat

So, you want the devs to retire a CE sink because some people have no control over what they spend? Wat.
The whole idea behind duplicating costs is that players don't defeat areas that are way over their capabilities/gear.
If they want to spend hundreds of CE to do so, why would the devs stop them? They are giving them money, and there is no single area with rewards as good as hundreds of CE.

Say, you spend some hundreds of CE to kill Duke, you get the incredible reward of 3 tokens.
In the long run you might as well just buy whatever you wanted to buy with the tokens from someone else.

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 12:45

#11

Crawdaunt

Legacy Username

^ Pretty much sums it up The

^ Pretty much sums it up

The ridiculously high costs are almost explicitly a way to stop players from continuing after dying too many times, regardless of whether or not you have the CE to continue. The difference is that there's some poor sap once in a blue moon who will decide it's a good idea to throw away that 1k CE, so more money for three rings, right?

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Limit the amount of Energy revives allowed in a single run.