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Less Crimsonite

22 replies [Last post]
Wed, 03/23/2011 - 14:55
Magnus
Legacy Username

This is more of a demand than a suggestion. There needs to be less Crimsonite. This has gotten to a gate-breaking issue. Look at this:

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6569/spiral20110323173629.png
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3678/spiral20110323173640.png

FIEND, BEAST, BEAST, FIEND, BEAST, BEAST.
FIEND, FIRE, BEAST, BEAST, BEAST, BEAST.
FIRE, BEAST, BEAST, Royal Jelly Palace, FIRE, freeze (magically).
GREMINLIN, BEAST, BEAST, BEAST, a not yet filled stratum, and Firestorm Citadel.

Now, how does this happen? There's no mineral tutorial. There's an explanation of how they work and everything when you talk to an NPC full of words that won't hold the attention span of most players, but there's no live demonstration that shows when you push auto-sell, you ruin the gates for everyone.

And it used to be that one powerful guild could fill up two stratums on their own easily at the benefit of EVERYONE. As you remember, Guild worked up a full Tier 3 of Shock so everyone could get Sparks of Life easily. Everyone was grateful for that. Now, there are outrageous demands to even fill one deep stratum. 15k minerals just to fill up one deep stratum. And even with a week of saving up, we can hardly fill it. On top of that, we have to fight every newbie who has no idea how bad they're screwing everyone with auto-sell through a tide of Crimsonite the likes of which no one has ever before seen.

I want to fight something besides beasts and fiends constantly. I want some VARIETY. And there is absolutely NO WAY to fight this flood without an ENTIRE GUILD saving up for at least a MONTH.

Sidenote: Boosting is also no longer viable. It costs 15k just to boost a mineral by one crown. One crown everyone will ignore and jam on auto-sell anyway.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 15:10
#1
kakelgis
Legacy Username
To add to the current

To add to the current problems on this:

-It's not even possible to control this, even by boosting. Why? Because boosts cost the same amount of minerals left on that stratum. How many left do we have? 15,000. Having to pay more than 7,000 for a SINGLE CROWN BOOST is ridiculous. Sure, you can wait until the gate has been filled up a bit - But come on. At 5,000 minerals left, the "top" minerals will already have too many deposited for us to be able to change that. And currently, there's too many minerals and not enough space - There's only one gate left to fill, and it's almost done! There's only two stratums left! And because of auto-sell, even if we boosted, people would still end up dumping Crimsonites, which would just defeat the whole point.

-As Magnus said, the only thing you explained is how they work, not how to use them correctly; You guys didn't tell us how to make the stratums we want, and it's not really an easy task to find it yourself. Hell, even equipment, mobs, rare mobs, whatever is easier to document, because you'll at least have a general sense of direction. Finding out stratums however, ends up being completely random.

Crimsonites are way too common to find right now. Luminites are also quite common, although not as bad; Currently, after saving up a few days of no depositing and being at 0 minerals, I have up to 180 of Valestone, Moonstone and Dark matter, 290 Luminite... and over 500 Crimsonite. This is just ridiculous.

I can see this situation getting quite bad upon release, if nothing is done to make it easier to control those gates.

And also about the guild control thing: Our guild and members often work together to create the specific stratums that we might want or that might generally benefit players; However consider that after over a week of saving minerals, then bringing several members (in total, our guild has about 50 active members; At least 10 of them helped on this one gate) to help dumping minerals in one gate, we barely managed to make the Amber Falcon's last stratum freeze. Check the finished mineral stock in it, if you want - All minerals only had at most a 40 mineral difference.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 16:29
#2
Skwiziks
Legacy Username
Level Variety?

The preview event is my first foray into the game and if too much Crimsonite is responsible for the lack of level variety I'd like to see ways of correcting that.

Guild-exclusive gates, maybe?

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 21:58
#3
Nyxeth
Legacy Username
Analysis

Another idea is the game server analyses what stratum's are up and then prioritises spawns of crystals that are lesser represented in the stratum's.

If 100% of the stratum's are fire, no more crimsonite should spawn.

Wed, 03/23/2011 - 23:01
#4
Seth
Legacy Username
I have a couple suggestions

I have a couple suggestions to help balance out the overall mineral count and help create some more varied gates.

First of all, remove the player-based mineral pricing system, most people ignore it because it's way too expensive with basically no effect. Instead make an automatic system that calculates the sell price of each mineral based on how much of each mineral is in all the other gates. (Basically, if Crimsonite and Valestone make up 80% of the other stratums in the other gates, then Crimsonite and Valestone sell for the least. The minerals with the least presence in gates like Dark Matter and Moon Stone will be the most valuable, until they become more common.) This will hopefully encourage people to collect minerals that are rarer because of them being more inherently valuable, instead of Vale becoming increasingly common the more Vale-dominant gates there are.

Second of all, one of a few changes should be made to the mineral deposit system. Currently, most people just autosell all of their minerals to whatever gate happens to be handy, which causes problems because only two minerals really contribute to what the gate is going to be and the rest end up as a sort of waste. First of all, a system could be implemented that allows players to manage the auto-sold minerals amongst the gates- the reason for this is because if someone doesn't care enough to selectively allocate their minerals and just want to make a quick buck, then at the very least others should be allowed to allocate them in their place instead of being forced to take the results of their carelessness for better or for worse.

Alternatively, the first time someone deposits minerals to a gate, they should be required to choose 2 (or maybe 3) minerals and from that point until the gate is opened they can only deposit those specific minerals to that gate. This would simply work as a measure to ensure that people don't just dump whatever they have into each gate and instead give concentrated batches to each gate, increasing the chance of a disparity between materials and not just another mix batch.

Finally, I'll admit that I'm not 100% clear on how these stratum-based gates work, but from what I understand it's predominantly just based off of what the two (or maybe one) most numerous minerals in the gate are. If this is the case, and all the other minerals are just sort of 'extra' then maybe when a sgate is opened a percentage of the 'extra' minerals can be either refunded or deposited into the newest gate automatically. This, again, is simply to ensure some progress toward variation amongst the gates.

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 11:31
#5
aceofbass
Legacy Username
I had no idea how those gates

I had no idea how those gates worked even AFTER reading most of the npcs bitherblather, I suggest those with the know-how compose an idiots guide to this miniral depot thing, and get it sticked, it might help the problem as for me and my friends I'll be keeping a close eye on this forum. As for a rarity issue i can only assume the more rare minerals unlock "better" area's when sufficiently placed, thus the more common and less loot/mat intense levels would proc more often. That system would work if people understood that to go better places they can't just dump everything in there. I didn't know that untill stumbling across this thread. The system isn't as broken as i think you guys are finding it, its just the rest of us didn't know how it worked.

BUT private guild depot's is a FANTASTIC idea :3

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 12:42
#6
Splinter's picture
Splinter
"I had no idea how those

"I had no idea how those gates worked even AFTER reading most of the npcs bitherblather, I suggest those with the know-how compose an idiots guide to this miniral depot thing, and get it sticked, it might help the problem as for me and my friends I'll be keeping a close eye on this forum. As for a rarity issue i can only assume the more rare minerals unlock "better" area's when sufficiently placed, thus the more common and less loot/mat intense levels would proc more often. That system would work if people understood that to go better places they can't just dump everything in there. I didn't know that untill stumbling across this thread. The system isn't as broken as i think you guys are finding it, its just the rest of us didn't know how it worked.

BUT private guild depot's is a FANTASTIC idea :3"

Could not agree with this more. Not that a lot of new people will probably read it, but those who care about the game will, might at least help the cause. As it seems futile as is at this point, until something is changed.

EDIT: Found this on the wiki page after about 5 seconds of searching. It's fairly helpful.

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Gate_construction

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 13:12
#7
Tyrsig
Legacy Username
I entirely agree with you,

I entirely agree with you, aceofbass. I'm really enjoying the action-forward elements of this game so far, but I really dislike how little the game explains core mechanics.

Even after reading through the NPC-tutorials available in-game, I have no real idea about how gate construction works (or even how to sell minerals other than as 'sell all') or how item stats interact other than "bigger is better". A much more transparent system would be greatly appreciated, especially when it comes to defense. The array of defensive options available when coupled with the fact that there isn't much information as to what is most beneficial to defend against and the fact that you can't really plan the monsters that you'll be facing... it's confusing, at best.

Edit: Thanks for posting that guide, Paska. It was very helpful!

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 13:03
#8
Magnus
Legacy Username
A guide would do nothing. The

A guide would do nothing.

The number of ignorant autosellers greatly outnumber the small amount of people who actually want to learn about minerals. So even if they did learn, they'd still be facing ungodly amounts of Crimsonite and would not be able to do a thing with gigantic capacity stratums.

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 13:28
#9
Pauling's picture
Pauling
So, it sounds like autosell

So, it sounds like autosell only work work if ALL gates got boosted, in order to drive minerals of other colors to other tiers. Currently, it costs 15k to boost a single stratum by 1 crown in payout, which means that to direct the allocation of all 5 mineral types would cost 75k crowns per stratum that you want to control... but since stratum size grows as player population does, I expect that those costs will go even further through the roof once the game is officially launched.

Something may have to be added to keep those costs in check, or the single-payer model of stratum payout boosting will get very broken, very soon. I don't know of any person or group that could sustain 75-200k crowns per stratum for long, if they'd be willing to spend it at all. Hopefully it'll be fixed though, because the underlying idea of letting players determine what gates they see is really pretty cool.

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 13:32
#10
PizzaShark
Legacy Username
Honestly, they should just...

Honestly, they should just remove auto sell completely, and put a tutorial in on how to deposit. Or penalize the player for constantly depositing the same type of mineral. Or maybe even reduce/increase the rarity of minerals you can find as the stratums get over saturated with other types.

There's many ways that this can be countered, and hopefully one will be implemented by launch.

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 14:34
#11
Vlad's picture
Vlad
Too much Crimsonite? Well,

Too much Crimsonite?

Well, players choose which minerals they pick up and deposite, so you can't demand them all to stop depositing minerals. So it just happens to be crimsonite. So what?

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 17:41
#12
Kawaii_Desu
Legacy Username
It's not that every player

It's not that every player picks Crimsonite.
It's that majority of the minerals randomly generated ARE Crimsonite.

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 20:33
#13
Magnus
Legacy Username
Vlad, don't triple post

Vlad, don't triple post something dumb. That doesn't help anybody.

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 20:45
#14
Quicksilver's picture
Quicksilver
Gotta problem with Crimsonite?

It's not that every player picks Crimsonite.
It's that majority of the minerals randomly generated ARE Crimsonite.

I'll just poke my head in and say that we're aware of this and have something in the pipeline to address it. :)

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 21:38
#15
Franpa
Legacy Username
Cool, also yeah the interface

Cool, also yeah the interface for selling Minerals is very, [i]very[/i] unintuitive and I also wasn't aware that the types of minerals you sell affect the gates.

Thu, 03/24/2011 - 22:48
#16
Sadiekate's picture
Sadiekate
/me throws a coin in

I wish that boosting the price paid for a specific mineral type in the tier creator would make more/bigger (compared to other types) crystals of it spawn in the clockworks.

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 08:19
#17
Manjo
Legacy Username
wat

Maybe a good simple idea would just be to have another npc around to buy rocks for a slightly higher price that won't count for any gate. Then we wouldn't have as many people dumping mindlessly into the gates.

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 08:52
#18
Game0ver
Legacy Username
I agree with removing the

I agree with removing the "Auto-Sell" button. All that button does is allow players to be lazy and mess up the gates for other people. Or, even change the auto-sell button, so that it Auto-Sell's to all of the gates, and deposits the proper minerals into the gates with the highest amount of that particular mineral. That would make it so the players that know what their doing can build up the colors they want, and the auto-sellers will just help contribute to their cause without having to learn anything. Both these suggestions are most likely mentioned, would just like to second them!

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 09:02
#19
Rotten
@Game0ver: Another thought is

@Game0ver:

Another thought is to simply limit auto-sell to only selling full 'sets' of crystals.

IE: you hit auto-sell but only have 1 crimsonite? No go, it does nothing. Have 10 crimsonite and 8 of each other mineral? Cool, you sell 8 of each and you're left with 2 crimsonite that won't sell via auto-sell.

So if people are trying to increase just one type, they can do so, and if you're just auto-selling to get some money, it doesn't mess up what the others are trying to do.

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 09:54
#20
FluffyBunny
Legacy Username
Nah, removing auto-sell

Nah, removing auto-sell wouldn't do any good. The people who don't care about the system would still manually sell all the crystals they have to make all the money they can in one go.

There is no simple solution to that problem, other than just removing the system of "voting" with crystals altogether. It was a nice concept on paper, but it's apparent that a lot of players just aren't going to care. All they want to do is raid dungeons, quickly sell the crystals for crowns, and then go raid dungeons again. =P

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 10:05
#21
iandawson0
Legacy Username
Could just make minerals not

Could just make minerals not sell for any money at all. This would make people realize they're used for things other than a quick buck.

Fri, 03/25/2011 - 13:17
#22
Georgieanna
Legacy Username
oof

I wish the Auto-sell be more of an Auto-fill button, sticking all the crystals I have into the window but I'd still have to OK the transaction and be able to tweak it. Letting/Making me read what crystals I'm handing in before I do it.

The issue with people randomly auto-selling is only an issue because of the high amount of Crimsonite. The auto-sell is a non-issue if the relative drop levels are normalized. I.E. auto-sellers throwing crystals in would average out while the more industrious could then add specific colors to tilt the scales.

As for general knowledge of gate creation, the NPC does imply that different color combinations will result in different level types, but also notes that it's rather up to the players to figure out what ratios make what gates. I think we're all pretty sure what red is used in by now. For the simplest view you take away: "crystals go into making gates, they give me money for giving them crystals". If things are balanced that's all they Should need to take away if they want to ignore the details of gate creation and leave it up to others to worry about.

To sum up: Most of the issues mentioned aren't real issues, just branch issues caused by of the abundance of Crimson. Which they imply they're doing something about.

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