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Can't explain awful ingame latency

18 replies [Last post]
Wed, 08/03/2011 - 02:42
Ufana

Hi!

My latency ingame is awful, pvp practically impossible. Can't find an explanation why. I keep:
- Getting stuck when trying to run around corners
- Getting stuck at my own bombs
- Placing my bombs in the wrong places unless I stand still before placing them
- Running into the bombs of players that are running BEHIND me and getting trapped by my own bombs that I thought I laid in FRONT of them
- Getting killed by off-screen bombs before I see any sign of an explosion, even if it has to cross more than half a horizontal screen length before reaching me.

traceroute says, I have a ping of about 140 to AMAZON.COM.edge3.Washington1.Level3.net which shouldn't be THAT bad. Not great, but playable.

ping says (while playing the game):
1145 packets transmitted, 1145 received, 0% packet loss, time 1144571ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 135.885/138.708/200.684/3.613 ms

I have no problems with servers of other online games in the US. My ingame experience was a lot better before the steam update. A LOT. Aside from being unable to play pvp, theres a lot of things that don't work reliable any more ever since:
- Dodging greavers with nitronome
- shield-bumping
- Taking a step back from slacks
Also when using the shield I often get "sucked" back into mobs / spikes etc even when it looked as if they should have missed and I already walked a step or two.

Can't find any causes for this - my internet connection isn't the best or fastest, but the game client is not using my full brandwidt, all ports get redirected the right way... it shouldn't be THAT unplayable. I've never seen a third connection bar in the client though. I constantly have to take a break from SK and play some teeworlds to remind myself that I'm not crazy about that "ping stuff" (and that I don't suck thaaaat badly at "fast / pvp games").

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 02:54
#1
Munroe
You aren't alone. I've been

You aren't alone. I've been in the same boat for a while now. These symptoms tend to diminish drastically in late night which leads me to believe the bottleneck is either server side, or somewhere between the server and my isp infrastructure.
I've done everything I could to try and remedy things on my end too. New high end router, ports forwarded, mtu decreased appropriately, connected by wire, all hardware drivers updated, java64, no background programs using any network resources...
The game still changes its mind about my maneuvering past a corner and forcibly drags me back to die to my own bombs.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 03:29
#2
Ufana
Tried about the same things

Tried about the same things and a few more. :/

I can see quite a difference depending on at what time of the day I'm playing, too. But while during the morning hours most of the clockwork can be conquered with ease, pvp still is unplayable.

*edit/me-need-reduce-me-offtopic-nonsense*

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 05:01
#3
Starlinvf's picture
Starlinvf
130ms is very high

130ms is very high considering the precision timing needed on that map. Normally the game isn't very strict keeping your location between the server and client perfectly synced, by it does do a sanity check on your movements when the client updates your position.

The blast network network map design has 2 traits you don't see elsewhere in the game. Its a grid made entirely of sharp 90 degree turns, and all dropped bombs have to be centered on the square. When the server tries to verify your movements, it checks to see if the place you were seen last and the place the client is saying you are now can be reached in a straight line and within a certain distance (or maybe speed). If the gap between updates becomes too large (ie high latency), turning a corner at high speed will cause the server to see you walking into a solid object, and will tell the client it needs to resync its position. The result is you getting rubber banded into a spot until numbers start lining up again. You get the exact same problem attacking wolvers with weapons that pull you forward, like the flourish... which leads into the second problem. Since bombs have to be centered on a square, and as a rule, when bombs are placed the knight comes to a full stop and places the object at his feet, the game will snap you into the center of a square during placement. If your doing this on the run, the desync can become bad enough that the server will forcibly correct the client and put you back where the bomb is. This is made even more complicated since bombs are now collidable objects (think Vanaduke getting stuck).

And for the record, the server is hosted in the Amazon EC2 cloud somewhere in Seattle, WA. While it does function well enough (and probably cheap), I still have reservations about using cloud computing for this kind of server hosting. Low Latency is hugely important in game servers, and the cloud is basically a giant cluster **** of data movement and shared processing time.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 07:08
#4
Dogrock's picture
Dogrock
There may be something of a

There may be something of a return of the old upload bug with PvP. I've noticed an incredible (relative to this game) amount of outbound traffic while in the actual Blast Network Arena only. I'm looking at 100kbps upload, with bursts of 200kbps+. When my line is limited to 384kpbs by plan and my location making it harder to sustain over 150kbps upload rates this is probably causing d/c like behavior as I simply run out of bandwidth for a moment.

As a base line, the Blast Network lobby is about 35kbps upload and regular clockworks usually at about 50kbps. Interestingly, this only became a problem after the CE Spending patch. Before that I could play PvP without d/c like behavior, albeit with minor lag that got very predictable.

Thu, 08/04/2011 - 01:05
#5
Munroe
The latency is actually

The latency is actually really consistent with the time of the day.
Here's what it looks like during an average match around 9-10pm pst:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkYOWJ0eukY (sorry for the abysmal quality, I was massively limited on diskspace)

Note that this includes footage from two different matches and comprises of cherry-picked moments for the most visible moments but you can be assured that the rest of the game was not any more playable.

Fri, 08/05/2011 - 13:20
#6
Ufana
Mine's got a LOT better after

Mine's got a LOT better after the second (or third?) server restart after that patch. Still pretty bad at times, though. Even considering the technical side of this, it still feels like there a hidden +100ms somewhere at least. Or something out of synch... somehow... in a strange way.

Fri, 08/05/2011 - 13:25
#7
Starlinvf's picture
Starlinvf
If you ever tried doing a

If you ever tried doing a trace route to the zone servers, its seriously deep in the cloud. After level3, ICMP kind of disappears for a few hops, then shows 2 hops before disappearing again.

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 07:29
#8
Rage-Knight's picture
Rage-Knight
Same problem - I teleport

Same problem - I teleport back to the corner few blocks after turning, get stuck in bombs that aren't supposed to be there, make 4 swings in a row with a 3-swing weapon ect. Not to mention my bomb placements in PvP are completely random, some won't appear, some appear in place, some appear where I was like 2-3 seconds ago.

I live in Ukraine (Eastern Europe) and some lags is a norm here. Any FPS is playable with pings up to 100 ms - as long as the game is well made. Spiral knights isn't the case, though - constant lags, lag spikes, teleports after every second sharp corner, my charged attacks get interrupted AFTER being released ect ect ect. Parties are unplayable, fine, I can solo. But lately even soloing became unrealistically laggy.
I tried PvP but it seems more like Player vs RandomLag. I can't tell what the hell is going on, what killed me, weather I turned or got stuck in a block, weather I'm running in front or behind that other guy ect. Its unpredictable and unplayable.

Game is broken. Please fix it.

Even flash-based bomberman multiplayer games don't have 1/10 of problems I get in Spiral Knights.

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 07:46
#9
caseyweederm
Legacy Username
Bought a new router. No more

Bought a new router.
No more problems.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 02:08
#10
Ufana
So... after some more trying

So... after some more trying around there's just a few things that I can't really explain.

Example:
Pressing 'W' for north and mouse for bomb in regular intervals on crossings, nothing else.

Expected result:
A vertical line of bombs, one bomb in every crossing. I'm walking away.

Expected result with high ping:
A vertical line of bombs, one bomb *after* every crossing. I'm walking away.

Expected result with high jitter:
A vertical line of bombs with irregular spacing. I'm walking away.

But sometimes I get:
A vertical line of bombs with me standing between the last two of them. How!? I can see how this can happen with someone else seemingly walking in the same spot as I am, but how do I manage to do that on my own without pressing the "south" key even once?

Or:
A vertical line of bombs with me standing in a dead end to the left or right of the last bomb. Now that's weird. Sometimes I *pop* back into such a "side tunnel" after it looks as if I already went quite a few tiles further and I brought company in form of the last bomb that was meant to go into the vertical cascade with me.

While I notice (i.e. Am sure I saw what I saw in that mess) things like that only rarely, I sometimes have the feeling that during tight situation strange glitches like that play a bigger role than I can really see. E.g. when going close combat with another player, I usually don't have the time to figure out if the sequence of bombs I get stuck in even makes sense, but there were quite some astounding mix-ups. Like p.e. when we both come from opposite sides: "red bomb, yellow bomb, me, yellow bomb, other player, red bomb" and I think: "was there even enough time for us to lag that mess together?".

Tue, 08/09/2011 - 00:53
#11
k2homie1
Legacy Username
I'm having the exact same

I'm having the exact same problems you are. I have been able to play SK without any problems whatsoever (except for the rare lag spike that lasted only 5 seconds or less) but since they added the Coliseum/PvP, the entire game is now virtually unplayable for me. I always have hardcore movement lag everywhere, Haven, the Clockworks or the Coliseum. When I attempt to go anywhere, Clockworks/Coliseum, whatever, the lag just gets worse and worse until I get disconnected from the server. Immediately after this happens I go to speedtest.net (also selected a server in California because I think thats where the closest SK servers are, I live in Western Canada) and my internet speed was 1.3 Mbits/s DL and 0.75 Mbits/s UL, Ping was 84 ms. Now 84 is kind of high latency, but earlier tests to the same location in the U.S. were roughly the same, and that was when I didn't have problems with lag in-game. I could go on forever but I think I'm going to stop playing SK until OOO MAYBE comes up with a fix for this, because I know that you and me both are not the only ones with this problem, because all of my friends are as well.

Tue, 08/09/2011 - 15:37
#12
Soulstaker's picture
Soulstaker
If your somewhere else than

If your somewhere else than the U.S. Then your screwed.probally they will add new server for more countries in the future.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 04:11
#13
Jeffreysgf's picture
Jeffreysgf
Latency isn't the main

Latency isn't the main problem, the coding is.
For shielding against an attack, you have the round trip from latency, as well as processing time for the game to say you shielded, for other things, it is just how they do it.
To perform an action, it needs to go to the server and be processed by the server. OOO does not trust you enough to let you play the game properly.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 15:07
#14
caseyweederm
Legacy Username
That's a lovely ideal,

That's a lovely ideal, jeffreysgf, to allow everybody to tinker with their clients.
The problem comes about when everyone does.
Have you played a game of Counterstrike in which you emptied an entire clip into a dude, and he walks right up and shanks you?
Do you want that in Spiral Knights?

No.

No you don't.

Do you see why it's good to choose not to trust the client software?
This is not bad design. It is very, very good design and it protects you and every other player.

Sun, 08/14/2011 - 03:14
#15
Jeffreysgf's picture
Jeffreysgf
No I haven't played a game

No I haven't played a game where that happens (where it isn't meant to).
The only time that will become a problem for the people who want to play fairly, is during PvP. During this time, if people are hacking, they can be reported, and banned.
During other times, the only thing that would happen is people don't die when they are meant to, so they ruin the game play for themselves, yet others can still play fine. If they go in a party, they can still be reported for hacking.
They would not be able to get crowns or energy or materials or anything else that they can't get now, they can keep that on the server, but walking and shielding (not shield health) should be on the client. The knights health and their shield health and all the drops and the crowns and energy can still be on the server.

Would I want that on Spiral Knights? No, however when it does happen, that player can be dealt with, and it will be a rare occurrence. However, occasionally having that happen would be far better than continually having the game screw up and place me where I shouldn't be, or waiting to shield until I have been hurt.
Having people hack is the better option.
Hacking will ruin the game for the person hacking, and the people in the same party as him (which is essentially only significant during PvP).
The current system ruins the game for everyone except those that can still manage to hack it.

It is a good design for OOO as it is more likely to have people die and need to spend energy to revive, so they can't play as much using up server resources, or they buy energy.
It is a horrible design for the players.

Sun, 08/14/2011 - 14:51
#16
Jellosjello
This isn't new. OOO claims

This isn't new. OOO claims they have no "lag" or it's on your side, but believe me they cannot support their playerbase for connectivity. I'm tired of getting killed 3-6 tiles away from monsters or being thrown around like a ragdoll from lag spikes or being drawn back into enemies. I'm sure many people know of the 4.2.2.2 DNS server you can ping, I have a 31ms ping with that, a 26ms-48ms ping on most TF2 servers, a 15mb/2mb line, and my computer can run most games on max graphics.

Let's just hope that OOO decides to fix this as there is *no* means of compensation for lag deaths due to their inability to support their players.

Sun, 08/14/2011 - 15:54
#17
Starlinvf's picture
Starlinvf
Thats not how a ping works.

Thats not how a ping works. When your measure between 2 points, you need to measure against your intended target, not a random point in the network. That server is in the upper north east, and close to the Level3 backbone... so it should respond fairly quickly if your nearby. While not far off, the EC2 cloud hosting the SK servers is near the Virgina/DC area and you should be testing your way through to that destination.

Sun, 08/14/2011 - 18:41
#18
Poweredbysteam
Ping.

Turn of the Allow Talk feature on the Option menu or quit any other programs that also share your bandwidth (Skype, Xfire, Firefox, Y!M, whatever idc)

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