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Lag ain't what you think

25 replies [Last post]
Wed, 08/03/2011 - 05:59
jooozek
Legacy Username

"Lag is a common word meaning to fail to keep up or to fall behind. In real-time applications, the term is used when the application fails to respond in a timely fashion to inputs. The most common use regards online gaming when the game doesn't respond in sync with the player's controls, usually due to a slow internet connection, server latency or overworked hardware."

Do you understand what that means? It means that when you say lag then its automatically implied that it is network lag since its an online game. In case of graphic lag the game engine would require you to render a set amount of frames/ticks per second, lets say for example, 30, the lag would be having some frames from the previous second moved to the next one, that is lag, its failing to keep up not ditching totally like its in Spiral Knights. There can't be fps lag in this game. You can get network lag and input lag and sound lag though. So next time instead of saying that your game is lagging when you are talking about your game framerate dropping just say that the game slows down and isn't as smooth, you don't need to talk technobabble.
Oh, and, freezes at random/consistent intervals are called stuttering.
herp derp

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 06:19
#1
Starlinvf's picture
Starlinvf
yet there will still be

yet there will still be people who will use the term incorrectly. Like Kleenex, Q-tips, Band-aids, Vaseline, Poprocks, Coke, MMO, burgers, iPod, Jell-O, Icee, Power Bar, a whole nother, irregardless, youse, pulling a Homer, and Robot Chicken.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 06:22
#2
caseyweederm
Legacy Username
"^^^" QFT However. There is

"^^^"
QFT

However. There is the issue of actual lag, in which the client fails to synch with the server, and displays monsters just standing there and knights lazily waltzing through walls into the mechanized sunset, or not showing the attack telegraphs until it's too late to shield, that sort of thing.

Lots of players have that problem, even though "it's totally not my network I can totally like play TF2 and Diablo II and Superbreakout online just fine".

We should set up a wiki page for diagnosing the problem, and post the link every time somebody starts up a new "i haz lag" thread.

Is your Spiral Knights client doing this? Do you see this?
Videos would be helpful for precision.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 09:57
#3
Trouser's picture
Trouser
Of course it's lag.

Yes, it is useful to distinguish different types and causes of lag. Stuttering is quite different from network latency. However, stuttering is still a form of lag, and telling people that it is incorrect to use the term that way misses the mark.

How is stuttering a form of lag? The client is failing to keep up with the current game state, quite likely due to overworked hardware. Let's say it takes 1/10 of a second to process a frame instead of being able to maintain steady updates at 30 frames per second. Even given that intervening frames are skipped, this frame will be at least 2/30 of a second out of date by the time it is rendered and displayed on the screen. Maybe it took too long to draw, maybe the client was slow dynamically loading textures for a new spawn wave, maybe it was something else. It doesn't matter the cause, it was still 1/10 of a second between the client getting the information and displaying that information to the player. This, in turn, means that the player's responses are also delayed, relative to the game state maintained by the server, whether there is additional network latency or not. Furthermore, if the client is busy processing the next frame to display, it is likely not processing the player's input and passing it to the server, resulting in an additional source of lag in low frame-rate situations. To say that this is not a form of lag is absurd.

To say that this form of lag is irrelevant to certain conversations about network latency would be very different, and quite reasonable.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 09:59
#4
Sylvanius
Legacy Username
Religion says: "Airplanes are flying demons"

If you're going to get hung up over semantics, do it right, at least.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 10:01
#5
Xanares
Legacy Username
It should also be noted that

It should also be noted that AFAIK all servers are hosted in the US (even the "localized" ones), thus all European, Asian and Australian players are experincing a higher latency.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 10:58
#6
Xanares
Legacy Username
@Bedtimebear: Seems like you

@Bedtimebear:
Seems like you barely meet the minimum age requirements to play this game.
I'm lagging just as much as you do but there's no need for such profanity.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 11:39
#7
Eurydice's picture
Eurydice
Community Manager
Please watch the language,

Please watch the language, per the forum guidelines.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 12:56
#8
Soulstaker's picture
Soulstaker
I once got very severe lag on

I once got very severe lag on a snarby run which was not fun.luckily I had one newb with me.I had nobody else so I had to thank him.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 13:19
#9
jooozek
Legacy Username
@Trouserman

You didn't really grasp what this thread about. It isn't really about semantics per se. Its about the general chaining the word lag to everything that causes you a sad face. This is just a thread to have people to be more precise/distinguish their problems with the network/game performance problem. To flamers: you can go nitpick somewhere else as i didn't claim nowhere that i'm alpha and omega, thanks in advance.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 13:24
#10
JoshMK
Legacy Username
http://forums.spiralknights.c

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/11533

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 13:49
#11
john1111
Legacy Username
alright im behind the wall, i

alright im behind the wall, i should be safe.

(bomb precedes to clip my nose/behind and blows me to smitherins)

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 14:47
#12
caseyweederm
Legacy Username
Actually, these two wiki

Actually, these two wiki pages pretty much cover everything.
Still, I think the community would benefit from some sort of step-by-step illustrated list detailing the distinction between the different technical issues.
Maybe a flowchart. Flowcharts are neat.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 14:58
#13
jooozek
Legacy Username
Indeed, a flowchart would be

Indeed, a flowchart would be good, this one is good for example - http://crawl.chaosforge.org/images/d/d2/Crawl-flowchart.jpg

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 16:07
#14
caseyweederm
Legacy Username
Did you find you were

Did you find you were experiencing lag? Is it Sigmund?

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 16:16
#15
Loki
Legacy Username
Words are created daily, and

Words are created daily, and meanings of new and old are changed over time.

Welcome to Language.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 16:36
#16
uhkram
Legacy Username
I use it to describe the

I use it to describe the effect of what ever happens with my client / comp or network. How else am I suppose to show my frustration?

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 16:37
#17
caseyweederm
Legacy Username
The important thing here,

The important thing here, Loki, is reaching a common understanding.
A player misdiagnosing memory-leak-induced frameskip might spend a lot of effort cursing out network latency, and not a lot tweaking graphics settings.
The public outcry might be a bit more directed and effectual.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 17:05
#18
Trouser's picture
Trouser
Semantics

You didn't really grasp what this thread about. It isn't really about semantics per se.

You started this thread with a definition, then used it to support a specific claim that graphical lag such as stuttering is not lag and chastise people for calling it such. And when your claim is refuted, you say it's not about semantics. Herp derp, indeed. I'm all for people being precise about what they're trying to communicate. You might try it, yourself.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 19:05
#19
caseyweederm
Legacy Username
Speaking of flowcharts and

Speaking of flowcharts and arguing on the internet:
http://laughingsquid.com/comic-flowchart-on-how-to-deal-with-internet-ar...
(language and some symbols not safe for work)

I laughed, and I was laughing at myself.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 19:33
#20
raxxok
Legacy Username
I'm getting 60fps, when i

I'm getting 60fps, when i plant a bomb a get warped backwards, sometimes when i move i get warped backwards, this game has no lag compensation it reminds me of old games that would rubberband, the game need a new netcode.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 21:59
#21
caseyweederm
Legacy Username
Okay. I bought a new router,

Okay.
I bought a new router, and there is zero lag now. None.
Try changing some settings on your router. Try holding it upside down. Try performing an exorcism.
Try things. Help may be in your own hands.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 22:55
#22
Evning's picture
Evning
yea insufficient graphic resource and network lag are diff

But i am pretty sure this game lags(network wise) for people half the world away.

even the game itself is telling me, its lagging.

Thu, 08/04/2011 - 02:22
#23
jooozek
Legacy Username
"You started this thread with

"You started this thread with a definition, then used it to support a specific claim that graphical lag such as stuttering is not lag and chastise people for calling it such. And when your claim is refuted, you say it's not about semantics. Herp derp, indeed. I'm all for people being precise about what they're trying to communicate."
Actually, if there is someone chastising someone in this thread its you me. And my claim wasn't refuted, i just explained it to you explicitly as other people knew what this thread is about. Feels bad man.

Thu, 08/04/2011 - 05:50
#24
Jaerin
Legacy Username
Actually you are forgetting

Actually you are forgetting about one of the most important types of lag.

Server lag...

This is when there isn't enough hardware processing power to respond to all requests. The network could be free and clear, but if there isn't enough CPU/memory there is game lag. It's not the same as high latency or packet loss which also cause lag. Both of which exhibit themselves in different ways.

Freezing or Stuttering as you put it could very well be local system problems causing the issue, but it very well could be server lag as well.

The issue on the macs though is obviously client side.

So glad you felt the need to talk down to people and try and educate them on something you obviously don't have the complete story on either.

Thu, 08/04/2011 - 06:05
#25
jooozek
Legacy Username
@Jaerin

Seems like you are another lost soul here, if you know more than i do, cool, good for you. Like i said i'm no alpha & omega, so stop nitpicking and find another thread for personal attacks with your passive-agressive sarcasm. Read the whole thread before you post another pointless rebuttal. Thanks in advance.

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