Spiral Knights - triglav and Sudaruska comparison to all other mainstream weapons

triglav and Sudaruska comparison to all other mainstream weapons

26 replies [Last post]

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 16:52

grimangelx

Legacy Username

I feel like these swords damage are weaker than they ought to be

this is basically a look at weapon balancing and how the sudaruska and triglav have not been made equally in comparison to other swords

(these damages are based on normal damages (resistant/super effective damages not counted)

First a look at these two swords along side the most commonly made swords

Heres the list based on stratum 6 damage (attack power means on the weapons image there is a little bar thats filled that shows its power, that bar has 10 sub sections)

Divine avenger
1st hit = 241
2nd hit = 363
whole combo = 604
charge = 600+ 131x(number of projectile hits. usually 1-3) total = 731-993
attack power = 7/10

Gran Faust
1st hit = 241
2nd hit = 363
whole combo = 604
charge = 600+ 131x(number of projectile hits. usually 1-3) total = 731-993
attack power = 7/10

Leviathan Blade
1st/2nd hit = 203
3rd hit = 258
whole combo = 664
charge = 368 X (number of hits; up to 3) total = 368- 1104 (also knocks things reallly far away)
attack power = 8.5/10

Cold Iron Vanquisher
1st/2nd hit = 186
3rd hit = 238
whole combo = 610
charge = 360 X (number of hits; up to 3) total = 1080
attack power = 8.2/10

Now these 2 new swords
Sudaruska
1st hit = 257
2nd hit = 315
whole combo = 572
charge = 451
Other effect = small chance of stun (almost never happens)
attack power = 10/10

Triglav (based on my lvl 10 triglav)
1st hit = 258
2nd hit = 321
whole combo = 579
charge = 453
other effect = small chance of freeze (almost never happens)
attack power = 10/10
REQUIREMENT : 250 krogmo coins. Thats like 125-200 pvp rounds. (basically a whole lot of time and/or energy)

so based on this i feel that the sudaruska and triglov need to be relooked at because there attack power shows that they are supposed to be stronger than all the other swords, but in fact they end up doing less damage then all the other swords. This trend is seen though all the 5 star swords. i only listed the most commonly used ones.

All that i ask is that all weapons be treated fairly as advertised?
If possible, change the charge attack of sudaruska/triglav back to when spikes jutted out of the ground, or increase the rate that they increase status effects, or fix there damage so that there on par with/ or better as they are advertised. The triglav in my opinion should be much better because it takes 250 krogmos to get it X.X

Anyway thanks and i really hope this gets looked at/considered.

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 18:19

Darkzekkai

Legacy Username

I think the Charge attacks

I think the Charge attacks for Triglav and Sudaruska need to be buffed. they are the slowest weapons and there charges are weaker than Levi/CIV

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 19:42

Tenkii

Charge attack

Yeah, the charge attack is terribly weak!

Divine Avenger's charge attack vs Gremlins and beasts: 327 - 362 (initial hit), 91 - 90 (follow up hits)

Sudaruska charge: 450s.

That's great. The charge attack does comparable damage to DA's ineffective damage, haha. On top of that, it's melee AND has way more lag time than the DA's charge.

They really need the rock effect back :/

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 20:49

itshh

Legacy Username

Sudaruska charge attack

Sudaruska charge attack almost never stunning? I have to disagree with that. Today in Ashen Armory in the room with spikes in the middle I was solely using the Sudaruska charge attack and got the stun on every other charge if not more. I'm no statistic major but I'd say there is at least a 50% chance of stunning the enemy on charge.

EDIT: On the other hand I've never had the Suda stun an enemy on the second hit. There is no mention of stun in the sword's in game description however so I don't see this being too big of a deal.

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 21:25

grimangelx

Legacy Username

sudaruska charge

mk. I actually dont own a sudaruska but if the stun rate is that good then thate pretty nice, i still think damage could be vamped. On the other hand the freeze on the triglov is low and the damage is also low compared to other 5*s. I just want that looked at or fixed

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 21:28

IceMilkTea

Legacy Username

Wait, if u dont own a

Wait, if u dont own a Sudaruska, whered u get the numbers from?

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 21:59

grimangelx

Legacy Username

wiki

wiki. O.o the other ones i had friends running fsc with me. I just used wikis sudaruska values although i would assume there pretty close to my triglav numbers.

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 22:06

Sirusswan

The Sudaruska

Even though I would really like OOO to bring back the charge attack rocks , I find the Sudaruska to be quiet effective at what it does. The first swing actually out-damages the DA/GF which is fairly significant because I find myself spamming the first swing more than doing full combos. Full comboing without thinking can get you killed fast. The second swing is great for crowd control. The long wind-up time on the charge attack usually is not an issue due to its long lunge distance . It does stun fairly often.

Over all if the troika line lacks anything in damage or speed I find that it makes up for it with attack reach and knockback.
I still would like those rocks to be put back in.

The OP probably got those damage numbers from the wiki (which I entered into the page from my observations of using my sudaruska).

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 22:29

Shoebox

They're definitely not as

They're definitely not as strong as they should be.

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 23:05

grimangelx

Legacy Username

to newonemax

how much damage are u doing with your first swing?

cuz my triglav does like 256 in FSC and the second hit is like 306 in there. So ya thats only 560ish damage. I just feel that the sword as a 5* should be doing 600+ with a full combo and a charge attack should do AT LEAST 500 damage. Or have some insanely awesome effect. All my other swords do :/

Ill admit i cant speak for sudaruska. Cuz i dont actually own one, BUT the triglav needs revamping in my opinion.

Like make the freeze rate better so the weapon can be used differently or something. cuz right now the low rate of freeze hurts more than helps when it hits. If it was more consistant it would be manipulatable. And the damage is just so low.

Sat, 08/06/2011 - 23:09

#10

grimangelx

Legacy Username

on a tangent...

based on wut i have seen the wikis numbers are pretty darn accurate. So using them as a reference is fine.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 01:45

#11

IceMilkTea

Legacy Username

imo, its a bit hard if u

imo, its a bit hard if u compare it like that.

Since a DA has extra dmg against certain mobs, and less dmg against certain others.
Whereas Sudaruska does the same dmg on all mob type.

Its like comparing a Glacius Vs a leviathan blade. Do we need to buff Levi as well?

But yeah i want the rocks effect to be back too :/

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 04:15

#12

z4t01

Legacy Username

it feels like they nerfed the

it feels like they nerfed the swords 20% since testing or something. its just not as strong as it SHOULD be

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 04:52

#13

Tenkii

@IceMilkTea

Its charge attack is weaker, slower, unsafer (melee) than DA versus the things that DA is WEAK to.

On top of this, it's still very slow so that extra range and damage (LOL about what, 10-20 damage in t3?) doesn't really make it any better than the DA versus neutrals.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 09:13

#14

gummybearx

Legacy Username

i agree with original post

all of the new krogmo weapons (the voltedge, plague needle, electron vortex) are amazing.the electron vortex is a gravity bomb + shock, voltedge is kiting sword with shock, and plague needle makes the blitz needle obselete. the new haze bomb is just as useless as the old one so no point in getting it BUT the triglav is lacking.

How can they make such an awesome looking sword and give it such a misleading attack power. I was dissapointed when i made it because its damage is really low. The sudaruska makes up for its bad damage because apparantly it has a decent stun rate (although i feel it can be amped a little for soloing porposes) but the triglavs effect is useless and unmonopolizable.

developers can you please fix these swords (triglav especially)

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 11:04

#15

Sirusswan

If three rings would just

If three rings would just make the rocks that appear in the Sudaruskas charge attack actually do damage like they used to then the sword would be PERFECT.

As it is now, the Sudaruska and triglav is one of the only 5* swords that cannot score multiple hits with their charge.

The DA/GF can multi-hit with their projectiles.
The Leviathan blade can multi-hit.
The brandish swords can multi-hit with their explosions.
The flourish and Barbarous thorn blade can multi-hit.
The 5* cutter swords can multi-hit.

Please three rings, bring back the rocks.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 12:20

#16

BiggestLoser

Legacy Username

Zelda

i agree, the swords suck compared to others, but they look so cool i might equip 1 sometimes just for the looks

a good way to balance the swords could be to add some special effects for the slow regular swings(if theyre slow, ther should be more firepower)
the dmg itself shouldnt be as much of an issue, i think
the charge attack lacks AoE, big minus

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 12:44

#17

Winthos

Legacy Username

I totally agree with all of

I totally agree with all of the above, the overall usefulness of the suda and trig is lacking when compared to even neutral hits from the DA and GF. The slightly increased attack radius and reach do not make up for the lack of power.

Sun, 08/07/2011 - 15:13

#18

Asonara

Legacy Username

The main issue is that the

The main issue is that the stun/freeze rates on them is just too low. I mean, considering it actually takes a bit of skill to hit the attack without being on the end of a counter it really shouldn't be actually weaker than a Glacious's, which you can launch almost instantly without being at all in harm's way.

Id say make the AoE biggerm about te same as a Trojan's smash, and make the chance's of status inflict at least 'good', if not make it leave behind a AoE mist about the size of a Vapourizer Mk2.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 10:32

#19

Culture

Bump

Been almost two months now, think this topic can use a revisit.

Sudaruska's lack of charge attack damage is a deal breaker for the sword. It would be a wonderful thing if this sword could be a normal damage alternative to the Leviathan for those that only carry one sword. Looking at some damage numbers, first hit vs charge attack...

Sudaruska
258, 468 Charge is 80% stronger than first hit

Leviathan
203, 368 Charge is 80% stronger than first hit, but the Levi is multihit resulting in a 443% increase. (368*3/203-1)
The great charge attack damage is what makes it a respectable alternative to typed swords.

Divine Avenger (neutral)
234, 600 Charge is 156% stronger than first hit, ignoring projectiles. About 170% including two projectile hits.

Glacius (neutral)
203, 531 Charge is 161% stronger than first hit, ignoring explosions. About 176% including two explosion hits.

If the Sudaruska's charge attack were capable of the damage increase the Leviathan has then it would do 1403 damage. If we take a two-hit Levi charge as a baseline for increase instead then it would do 935 damage. Seems like a lot, but it might make up for the extremely slow charge attack and the resulting vulnerability. At that point, like the Leviathan, it would provide subpar basic combo damage in return for a spectacular charge attack. Right now it just has subpar damage and a laughable charge attack... this coming from a sword harnessing the power of a mountain.

Tue, 09/27/2011 - 13:42

#20

Bluescreenofdeath

Thoughts on the Troika line

Thoughts on the Troika line (which I will abbreviate to Sud).

Hit 1 & 2:
I think the sum of the hit 1 + hit 2 for the Sud should be greater then all of the other swords. The other thing I think that should really set the Sud apart from the other swords is it's size. It has by far the longest model of any of the swords. If the actual reach of the sword reflected the size of the model this could provide a reason to use this sword over the others. I have done some reach testing in the Advanced Training House. Ascended Calibur vs Troika shows the Troika having about a 1/2 block 1st swing reach advantage over the Calibur (as measured by swinging at destructible blocks). Sealed sword vs Ascended Calibur showed the same reach advantage for the Sealed sword. When I tested Sealed Sword vs Troika, they both came up with the exact same reach even though the Troika model is much longer. I have had others in the forums confirm this for me with DA/GF vs Sud.

Charge
The DA/GF's charge attack is better and I'm OK with that because they are reward swords, but the Sud's charge defiantly needs some work (yeah I know the Triglav is kinda reward, but you can go lose at PvP a ton & still get it). The DA/GF's charge attack is super powerful and has a huge area of effect in front of you. The Levi's charge attack is great for when you are surrounded or dealing with a stationary foe. The Brandish lines attack is good for doing damage and causing a status effect in the area in front of you. I think the Sud's huge overhead swing should fill a roll more like the Final Flourish's, that is to do massive damage to a single opponent. I think the hit area for the charge needs to be decreased and the damage needs to be seriously bumped up. Also, I really feel the lag period between the damage dealt and when you can move again after using the Sud's charge needs to be reduced. The other point is the status effects. "Fair chance at Moderate Stun" that is a low chance of unimpressive stun & completely worthless. "Slight chance at Strong Freeze" is not any better. Fair and slight are to rare to be relied upon at all and a bit silly on a 5* weapon. I would rather have at least Good change at lackluster status effect or just not have them at all.

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 11:40

#21

Want

So..

How would we bring this to "their" attention?

Does posting here that it's obviously underwhelming actually get it any closer to fixing?

(not trying to troll, just honestly curious)

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 11:58

#22

Bluescreenofdeath

My guess is no. Have tried

My guess is no. Have tried the suggestion box. I'm sure many others have tried that too. My guess is the Devs are of the opinion that they just tweaked it and we should be happy...

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 08:16

#23

Kraanx

so....

at which star level would the spikes start appearing?

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 09:45

#24

Culture

Hmm

In T2 some spikes start appearing. In T3 all the spikes in a danger room are active. There are some danger rooms that only have one configuration of spikes, like the room with a + of spikes running through the middle. In which case the spikes are active from T2 down.

I don't do a lot of T1 any more, most of the danger rooms I've done had steel panels where there would usually be spike floors. Except for a few, like the room with the two gears and gates, that had two large panels of spikes at Depth 7.

Guess I should do more danger room screen shots, to get a better idea of the changes...

Sat, 11/12/2011 - 08:44

#25

Ewbte

bump

Wed, 11/16/2011 - 06:57

#26

Kraanx

@culture

NO. not ground spikes, man.
i mean the troika's charge spikes.

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triglav and Sudaruska comparison to all other mainstream weapons