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"Fake Difficulty" in the Vanaduke Fight a Bit Overwhelming?

21 replies [Last post]
Thu, 08/11/2011 - 13:32
Trihelix's picture
Trihelix

There are way too many elements to the Vanaduke fight that you can't control. Vanaduke in himself is not a terribly difficult boss. Before Slag Guards were added as auto respawns I could get him without an energy revive. Now... that isn't the case.

1) This battle is against the camera, not Vanaduke. All three enemies in this battle have dash attacks, and when they aren't on the screen, you have absolutely no way to know when you're going to get hit. My suggestion is that a Vanaduke icon is added to the radar. Perhaps he could should up as a large skull, or something like that, and the Slags could show up as large purple dots. It's an idea. The camera in this battle is so screwy that it was probably the cause of more than half of my damage in my last Vana run.

2) As any knowledgable Vanaduke runner knows, there are eight fireballs surrounding Vana during his final phase. You can throw a water ball at him, knock out one of these fireballs, and watch it come right back within the next 10 seconds. Given the fact that there are exactly three guns that even have a reasonable chance of getting through this barrier (Argent Peacemaker, Callahan, Blitz Needle), Vanaduke's final phase has an absurdly high amount of health. Did I mention you can DPS Vanaduke with a sword around two times faster than you can with a gun? The fact that swords are a complete no-no in this phase also contribute to the absurdity.

3) There is so much going on in this battle, that anyone who doesn't have the latest in computer technology is going to get some lag. I have a reasonably fast computer, but when the floor starts falling down, fire tiles are everywhere, and Vana and his cronies are dashing around like madmen, this is one big recipe for Lagcon 2011.

I could probably name a few other problems with his last phase, but that should be enough for OOO to realize that their final boss is overwhelmingly difficult for all the wrong reasons.

Call me a wimp if you want, and to get some skills, trolls, but that is my opinion on the Vanaduke fight in its current state. I feel that I'm not the only person with this opinion, either.

Thanks for reading,
-Tri

Thu, 08/11/2011 - 14:06
#1
Mohandar's picture
Mohandar
+1

I like a good fight, but not if it involves fake difficulty like this. It's acceptable on a single player game where you can reload a save and try the boss fight again, but in a game like SK where trying again basically involves shelling out money, random deaths due to ceiling falling in on you or small lag spike while Vanadork and his thugs are bumrushing you is a no-no.

I suggest eliminating the magma in phase 5, and replacing it with the need to put out fireballs (i.e. Vanaduke regenerates a fireball every three seconds). Under this type of condition, a small lag spike is less likely to result in death and copious amounts of rage.

Thu, 08/11/2011 - 14:51
#2
Starlinvf's picture
Starlinvf
While I agree with needing a

While I agree with needing a birds eye view for most of the battle, and slowing down the slag guards a little would make them possible to deal with. The rest of your points assume dying in Vanaduke while soloing is unintended. Truth of the matter is, fighting him requires a large amount of multi-tasking, which most players got around by exploiting a couple game mechanics. This is what his intended difficulty was supposed to be like, and what you should expect from a T3 boss.

A well geared, and well coordinated team can do this with minor difficulty (I've done it before in a good pug). But if your soloing, you should be expecting to do the job of 4 Knights. Every threat addressed, every defense a counter, and timing absolutely CRITICAL!!

Thu, 08/11/2011 - 21:58
#3
Trihelix's picture
Trihelix
All of the other points I

All of the other points I made feed off the main point, and that is that the screwy camera view in the battle causes serious problems. Would the battle taking so long be quite so frustrating without a broken aspect of the battle? Not at all.

I can trio this battle typically with one energy revive. I've duo'd it, and done it with four. I know how the fight works, and that timing is critical. You can practice the battle all you want, but there is no way to deal with enemies you can't see. I enjoy a difficult boss fight. I actually prefer them over easy ones, to be honest. I don't like a battle that is hard for all the wrong reasons. A challenge is nice; a fight with the lazy battle design is not.

Really, all I'm asking is that OOO change the Vana battle camera a bit. The other problems with the fight would be considerably more manageable, and the fight would be fun, and not frustrating.

Thu, 08/11/2011 - 22:00
#4
Ryoga124
Legacy Username
I actually beat Vanadork for

I actually beat Vanadork for the first time today.
I agree with not being able to see him needing a fix and about the lag issues. As for your second point, I can't say much. I did damage his mask fair amount with my sword, but when it came to his body, I had a Blitz Needle, and with my Radiant Silvermail, I just spammed charge attacks at him.

Thu, 08/11/2011 - 22:23
#5
werfjig
Legacy Username
I'm actually a fan of the

I'm actually a fan of the changes made to Vanaduke and welcome the increased difficulty, but I share your frustrations. An alternative to changing the camera view would be to add Vanaduke (or bosses in general) and his slag guards as icons on the minimap, preferably with arrows indicating the direction that they're facing.

I don't have lag issues, so I can't share your pain there.

Thu, 08/11/2011 - 23:51
#6
Hinacle's picture
Hinacle
Only problems I have with the

Only problems I have with the fight is them charging up the screen and bashing me out of the way, so yes, hostile/boss icons on minimap would really help.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 02:30
#7
Quasirandom's picture
Quasirandom
That you're fighting against

That you're fighting against the camera more than the mobs is the reason why the Vanaduke fight is so badly designed. It probably isn't that hard to fix, though. You know the overheat view that you use in phases two and four? Use that for the whole fight and the problem might be fixed.

"See if you can randomly guess what mobs that aren't on your screen are doing" is not an interesting game mechanic.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 06:51
#8
Trihelix's picture
Trihelix
@Quizzical - I was thinking

@Quizzical - I was thinking along the same lines. That would be a really easy fix for OOO, as well.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 09:12
#9
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
I think they really need to

I think they really need to fix the monster gate >_>. You can't see the fire becuase it blocks your view. Getting killed by something you can't see is even worse than getting killed by something you cant see coming.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 10:23
#10
Vash_kun
Legacy Username
Game engine stuttering is killing the fun in this fight...

I don't understand why the game stutters so much in this particular fight. There are lots of places, even earlier on in FSC, where a lot more things are happening on screen and the game works fine, but when I get to Vanaduke, the game becomes choppy and unresponsive, to the point where it is nearly impossible to avoid the burning debris and shadow fire squares. It's almost like the client and server are out of synchronization with each other and the netcode is freaking out. Would it help stop the stuttering if I grab a log file after the next time I run FSC?

I'm also gonna go ahead and throw in on the "change the camera" bandwagon. Seriously, there is no excuse for that craptacular camera angle. Place the camera higher, and for god's sake zoom it out. I'm with previous posters: fighting the terrible camera is not an interesting game mechanic. Except classic Resident Evil.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 11:08
#11
Bulby's picture
Bulby
I second the motion! ^_^

I can't say much, except Amen! I personally haven't made it to Vanaduke yet and I gotta say I'm not looking forward to what's in store for me as a soloist. Ó_Ò

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 12:22
#12
Duke_Nukem
Legacy Username
They also need to

They also need to cut down on the effects in the Roarmulus levels. I can't even get to the damned boss cause there's so much lag from effects. And I HARDLY GET LAG.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 13:33
#13
Asonara
Legacy Username
Lag is an issue, maybe they

Lag is an issue, maybe they could allow turning ur graphics to low to mean you wont see the falling ceiling? Cos it shows up on the floor anyways.

The fireballs are ok though, Polaris or Supernova can get through them with splash quite easily.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 14:49
#14
Ryoga124
Legacy Username
Instead of a large orange

Instead of a large orange glow, just make it a highly visible circle radius. Like how the bombs drop during the Roarmulus fight.

Fri, 08/12/2011 - 16:54
#15
Orangeo's picture
Orangeo
I think the reason they don't

I think the reason they don't revise things like this is becuase vannaduke is considered classic. He's existed so long, people just put up with unnessecary lag, poor camera angles, and graphics mistakes. He dosen't get thouroughly critiqued the way blast network does becuase of his status.

Sat, 08/13/2011 - 00:16
#16
raxxok
Legacy Username
The polaris also gets though

The polaris also gets though the flames.

Sat, 08/13/2011 - 08:02
#17
Klipwc's picture
Klipwc
psst, if you want a sword

psst, if you want a sword which passes through the fire, barbarous thorn blade charge. it works -_-" though if you ever have a team where every one is carrying one? invite me... i want in

Sat, 08/13/2011 - 15:06
#18
372849
Legacy Username
Completely Agree

The camera abuse is what really makes me rage during the Vana fight. I do think that Vanaduke being the, "final boss" if you will, warrants a fair level of difficulty. However, that should overcome able by skill, not luck. There is absolutely no way to defend against Vana or the guards when they go off screen till it's too late. Perhaps an eagle's eye view could be applied to ALL boss fights and not just Vanaduke

Sat, 08/13/2011 - 17:12
#19
stupysays
Legacy Username
@DrLequack

I can agree with you in the sense that the camera angle needs tuning. But they have dropped the difficulty of the slags charge considerably. A slow running animation as compared to the original trojan charge and the fact that holding shield will actually move you to the side diagonally if they collide into you before the attack is sprung.

If you're in a team of players that have a role and consistently fill it the fight itself is still not a challenge. Just maintain a shivermister, firefighter, dps and slag bait to their respective roles. Vanaduke will never end up hitting you if your team does what they're supposed to do. Ie: keeping him where he's managed. And that means even stopping dps if need be to focus on the secondary slag spawns.

I'm not decrying anyone's level of skill but maybe the reason it seems so incredibly difficult is because a lot of players haven't attempted to formulate specific strategies and patterns.

As for patterns themselves. An example.

The slags upward charge can be viewed from charging distance and still circle strafed with no damage taken and baited into charging again with the same process consistently. It's not a matter of distance in the case of the charge. Staying off screen from the slag is actually worse than keeping it within viewing distance. As for the pattern it should preferably be against a wall in a direct up/down pattern. There's no need to get hit if you can manage that, as the charge itself is slow and the attack only comes at the focal point of your last position. And with their deaths they now provide your entire team hearts. Except for the poor fellow with the shivermister. But he/she should be fine as is.

And this is by no means a negative comment on anyone's playing skill. I do find at times that the camera angle is detrimental. More or less for vanaduke himself and the unfortunate times a swing meant for the main aggro holder is directed in my general vicinity. But if you maintain that one person should be the one holding aggro the rest can generally go about their task at hand with minimal threat to life and limb.

It's when everyone goes into some sort of damage frenzy that order gets lost and people start taking hits from him turning and swinging while that person generally has no idea he's the main attraction.

tldr; have everyone maintain a job and try new patterns if the ones you are using are not working. There are a plethora of effective ways to defeat Vanaduke without the need to resurrect despite the camera issue. Which is indeed mildly irritating.

-Repartee

Sun, 08/14/2011 - 08:36
#20
Xylka-Mkii's picture
Xylka-Mkii
@klipwc WRONG. The Barbarous

@klipwc
WRONG. The Barbarous Thorn Blade's charge does not go though fire. The Snarby hologram does BUT that special effect "goes through" anything and will not do damage unless in an open area. ALSO dont tell me that im the one with a lie since I actually have the Barbarous Thorn Blade.
Id also be happy to show youanytime I can get online. just PM me or send me mail.
Barbarous thorn bade is great for FSC, but not THAT great. If it was you'd never see me switch weapons. ^-^
BTW my in-game name is: Xylka
Ill invite you to FSC. I always bring my Barbarous. Its my main weap for there.
PS. I dont have a Divine Avenger and dont plan on gettin one within the next week so bring your own :P

@raxxox
Polaris ftw.
Ill be getting one soon. :D

@DrLequack
I agree.And i dont normally lag so bad that my screen freeezes for two minutes and i die. In fact i lag more in FSC before Vana. Im not complaining.

Other than that all I can say is that Vanaduke is harder now. part of it is because the camera angle. I do not want a birds eye veiw 24/7. I do want the camera zoomed out a bit. I usually end up in not so great teams.(partially my fault since i join random teams) If i get a good player on my team, we usually need more than 2. I have not nor will soon (unless i get some UVs on my armor) go runFSC solo.

I have:
Skolver set (only need cap now)
Dark thorn sheild
Wild hunting blade
Leviathan blade
Barbaroius thorn blade
Gigawatt Pulsar
Silversix

Yep. I got basically the opposite of what you need for FSC. And I did that on purpose. And I have 14 almiran seals. So.... CYL

Sun, 08/14/2011 - 08:56
#21
Sensihaze's picture
Sensihaze
Honest

Honestly, I think the difficulty could even be harder... Just saying.

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