I agree with LeQuack. Mechknights and Jellies can be difficult, but they don't hold a lot of surprises, and I can hold them off with one of the big swords. Actually, Jellies are my favorite prey. :D

Now Retrodes and their breath weapons and pre-skeleton nerf h2h range ..now we're talking.

Normally, a full combo will throw a jelly far enough away to prevent it's counterattack from reaching you; they'll only successfully counterattack if you're pushing them up against a wall. In that case, simply shield up after 2 hits to block their attack - they're pretty consistent.

Mecha knights, like most monsters, have a period between attacks where they won't attack. Wait til they attack and hit them after. Pretty much the only monsters that need time to turn around are trojans and lumbers (and vanaduke) so you really need to expect that they'll just suddenly turn round and start charging an attack. When in doubt, remember you can shield up almost immediately after any hit before the last in your combo, and if you're close to the monster this will knock it away.

I don't see anything wrong with them If you're getting hit using a three swing combo, then use one. Or use two and shield. Or use a heavy sword for knockback. Or charge your sword. Or bomb them. Or freeze them. Or set them on fire. Or....see what I did there ;)

It's like moaning and whining about devilites (which I absolutely hate) and you're running in full vog/owlite shiled. Quit whining and get a skelly shield and some other armor or just skip the levels like I did when they were up.

Easy solution, don't use all three swings, unless you are certain you can pull the last one off and know it will knock the enemy back.

Most monsters that deal melee damage can turn on a dime and hit you like that, it's not unique to Mecha Knights. I will admit they are one of the harder mobs to "learn" how to fight effectively if you don't use a 2 swing sword, try to observe the way they behave. I suppose it can be disorienting with Jellies since you can't really tell where their "front" is at any given time.

I normally sortof run around so that they end up grouped together if there are many, then wait until the time is right so that I can can three swings and some change in on them (only do this if you have ASI gear). Otherwise I run around so they follow after me, and occasionally turn to take ONE swipe at them at a time, then resume running. This will prompt them to try to attack you, and they will hit each other, which does damage.

That's for groups, I mostly just 1-2 shield mecha knights to death if there is only one or two mecha knights.

Which guns do you use for that? (And how much time/shots is pretty quickly?)

Prizmat: what culture said. ;-)

I've used the voltech line and the pulsar line mostly, but I've even used my proto-gun in T2 to kill mechaknights once or twice. Basically, any gun that does something other than piercing should work ok.

L2play, this game is easy enough as it is.

If you think Jelly and Robos have insane reflexes, just try FSC. You're gonna rage so hard xD

Jelly cubes are pretty easy. Two sword attacks, shield, and back up. Two sword attacks, shield, and back up. Rinse and repeat until the jelly cubes are dead. If you're fighting eight of them at once or something ridiculous like that, then try bombs.

Mecha knights are harder but doable. For one or two mecha knights at a time, try charging a sword. Run away while you're charging, then turn and unload the charge, then run away again. That works pretty well with a glacius, acheron, or leviathan blade. I haven't tried other sword lines.

If you're fighting a bunch of mecha knights at once, as in a third arena, then try bombs. They bunch up pretty well, so you can hit a bunch at once. Keep doign that as you run around the room and you can kill them without getting hit.

Guns work against jellies, too, but they're easy enough with swords that there's no need to use guns. Guns can kind of work on mecha knights, but that's far more of a pain.

"It really is amazing how terribly people pay attention. Not once did I say they were too hard."

If they aren't too hard then they don't need a nerf. It really is that simple. Nerfs and buffs are given for balancing reasons, and considering jellies are probably the easiest enemy in the game, nobody (especially 3R) gives a single flying hoot that you want them nerfed just so you can farm your crowns more efficiently (and further contribute to inflation).

"Quizzical, please check the facts before trolling. PLEASE!"

His "facts" were fine. You say one thing but your implications mean another. If they aren't too hard, no nerf. End of discussion. Also, I really detest you and people like you who keep throwing out the word troll at every opportunity when it's clear you have NO IDEA how to correctly use the word given the context in which you used it.

This is likely pearls before swine, but whatever: trolling is when someone INTENTIONALLY posts something inflammatory for the sole purpose of getting an extreme reaction out of people (usually rage, but sometimes just to fool them about something). If I say "God sucks," that's trolling by simply baiting religious people into a huge flamewar. Quizzical has posted something he genuinely meant, and is nowhere close to inflammatory.

TL;DR: 1) you contradict yourself, don't keep trying to keep up this farce of "nerf them but they aren't too hard" without expecting to look like a moron, and 2) next time you want to try using the word troll, just don't post at all.

Now, class, if you look closely, you will note that this is what we in the field term a "cop out." You see, the poster -- what was his name? Noobowns, yes, quite fitting -- Noobowns proposes several balancing suggestions for a game in his OP, or "original post." At first glance perhaps you see nothing unusual about his statements, but if you care to read further in the thread, his fellow forum-goers systematically dismantle his argument for various reasons. These reasons are stated clearly here and as such I have no need to expound upon them, but I suggest you use this thread for you reference.

As I was saying, however, this is a "cop out," wherein Noobowns, rather than attempting to further defend his foolish propositions for fear of looking even more foolish, decides to withdraw entirely from the argument. Now, as you all know, withdrawing from an argument usually gives the illusion of loss of that argument, regardless of however misplaced that may be. Noobowns, on the other hand, deftly absolves himself from all illusory loss of argumentative statements by typing up a disclaimer right here, claiming that he is right, correct, and cannot be questioned, and that it is not simply ABOVE him to respond in kind to his peers, but in fact it goes against his MORALS to do so.

*removes glasses*

Ah, I see some of you are laughing. As you should, class, as you should. It is humorous in both its transparency of motive and its fumbling attempt at seeming intelligent and articulate. Well, that ends the lesson for today; for homework I'd like you all to answer questions one through ten on page 315, which deal with "Arguments on the Internet." See you all next Thursday.

=====

In all seriousness, noobowns, you're not impressing anyone, your arguments are still worthless and nonsensical, and you just ran away because you can't own up to it. If you think you're saving face, you're wrong, but hell if I didn't have a ball of a time typing all that up.

Are you lagging, perhaps? Mecha Knights (plural) are pretty tough though, I can see why people would have difficulty with them, with or without lag.

If you want to see really fast counterattacks, then you better go to a fiend tier and face those devilites and greavers. When you go back to slimes they would seem slow in comparison.

As for your three-swing sword, try shielding after the second swing, as there's a huge delay where you can't shield after the last swing.

You can try the previously mentioned 2-swing swords, but the last hit is even harder to manage. Sure it causes decent knockback, but whiff on one mob and...

Let's start from the beginning again, because you are not comprehending the whole point of what I was saying, while I totally understand what's going on with you. We'll do this point by point.

*You wanted a nerf on the mecha knights and jellies.
*Someone stated that you found these too difficult.
*You stated you did not find them too difficult.

All three above points are factual. You cannot deny any of them, as they are all listed above in this thread.

*Nerfs are making a game mechanic have less of an effect on something than was previously the case.
*Nerfs are used to balance games and make them fairer to play.

You cannot deny either of these points either.

If you want a nerf on an enemy, it means you think that currently, they are unfair to play against, and it follows that you think they are too difficult. The two are not the same, but one outranks the other because even if an easy enemy has an unfair ability, you don't mind it, as it is easy to deal with the enemy itself. That's off topic though. The point is, you only nerf something if it's overpowered and has too much of an effect on the game. As far as enemies are concerned, overpowered enemies are too difficult to handle. THEREFORE, when you claim you wanted a nerf for enemies, but THEN stated they were not too difficult, you contradicted yourself.

After you contradicted yourself, Trouserman and I called you out on it, to which your response was to "run away." I never said you're copping out of your ORIGINAL post, you're copping out of your self-contradiction. We only wanted to get you to admit that what you stated does NOT MAKE SENSE, and you either need to 1) withdraw your proposition of nerfing them or 2) withdraw your statement that you don't find them too difficult.

Glad we got that out of the way. Now, onto your latest points:

1) It's not called 'abusive fallacy' by anyone that I have ever met or spoken to. Try googling it with quotes around it. Few pages come up with those two words next to each other, and while luckily it points us in the right direction, that's not the term everyone uses. It is, in fact, "ad hominem." Wait a second! I could have sworn I mentioned that already...I did! IN MY LAST POST, IN MY LAST PARAGRAPH. And no, I swear I did not edit it whatsoever (sometimes I wish it would show whether a post was edited). And here you are telling me to look it up. You make yourself look stupid yet again for not only using incorrect/extremely seldom used terminology for something, and not knowing what it's actually called, but by telling me to look it up when I already used the term correctly before you invoked it. You are not helping your case.

2) Ad hominem means I attacked you RATHER than your argument. Wrong. I attacked your argument for being contradictory, as did Trouserman, and I ALSO attacked you for being stupid about refusing to own up to your contradiction.

3) "I am merely finding this argument with you to be a waste of my time since you apparently dont get it" is also another cop out. You do not want to argue with me because you don't understand what I'm ever telling you, and you don't want to look like you're losing face by not understanding. So your response is to simply (figuratively speaking) put your hands over your ears and say "la la la" the whole time.

You might find this a waste of time, but I find this extremely entertaining. The worst part about this whole thing is that you never address any of my points. You don't address your contradiction and you don't address your own hypocrisy (accusing me of trying to sound smart when it was you that was attempting to do so). This is like coming across someone who has dug themselves into a hole, and when you say "buddy, you dug yourself into a hole," they say "no i didn't!" and keep digging.

inb4 you toss in yet another cop out that essentially says "your arguments are stupid and i'm not responding to you."

TL;DR: 1) jellies and mecha knights need to be nerfed, or 2) they are not too difficult. CHOOSE ONLY ONE.

Hey, it's not like I hate the guy or anything. If he wants nerfs for something, that's totally fine; he gave reasons for the nerfs and backed up his suggestions. It doesn't matter to me what or why he wants the nerfs for, that's not what I was making a point about. It's that he wanted nerfs for something, and then he said "but they aren't too hard," which doesn't make any sense. That's all it was.

But then we got bogged down into his ignoring that point and him accusing me of acting smart and yadda yadda. At this point, I'm thinking it doesn't matter. I've made my point clear, and he's either still not understanding or just outright ignoring, and really either is fine. He can do whatever he wants, he just has to know that he can't have the best of both worlds. He's either got no issue with the enemies, or he wants the nerf.

All in all, while it was hella fun to have the little debate, at the end of the day nothing's going to happen. There won't be any nerfs for either of these things (most people would want nerfs for fiends), so it's all just hypotheticals and whatnot.

It's all good noobowns. For me, nerfing is directly tied to difficulty (although I mentioned before that technically it wasn't the case). I see that's not the case for you, even though I see it as the same thing (i.e. the more of a nuisance it is, the more difficult it is; and fiends are definitely hard). If you mentioned that before I totally missed it, so my bad.

I didn't read all your posts and thread i just read the origianl post and all i got to say is "you suck." Stop trying to ruin my game by making everything easier for yourself. Any complaint or suggestion that this or that should be nerfed, just keep it to yourself. Just cause you suck doesn't mean you gotta ruin the game for the rest of us. Here's an idea why don't you try getting good at the game before you go and make it easier.

The difficulty of Devilites depends on the number of members in the party.

Retrodes need to have the laser marking where they will shoot come out much faster.

Jellies need a buff. Movement speed, perhaps?

Mecha knights are utterly incapable of attacking when stunned. Although they will still shock.

Lumbers need to stop glitching damage and attacks. When I'm circling a lumber while he's turning in the opposite direction, he should not hit me just by starting to charge his swing. I have this problem whenever I am right next to an enemy when they start to charge their attack, but it's most annoying with lumbers since they stun you.

mecha knights' shielding behavior can be exploited by stopping them in their tracks for a moment while you get further away, then blasting them in the face when the shield pops back off

jellies have that ground-spike ranged attack now but they're still too stupid to lead their target, so if you don't stay still they can't hit you either